#175 Don’t Make Author Pat Jankiewicz Angry You Wouldn’t Like Him When He’s Angry

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Jeff Dwoskin 0:28

All right, Jennifer, thank you so much for that amazing introduction. You got this show going each and ever a week and this week was no exception. Welcome, everybody, to Episode 175 of classic conversations. As always, I'm your host, Jeff Dwoskin. Great to have you back for another classic episode. Don't make me angry. You wouldn't like me when I'm angry. Or sorry. I mean a hulk out on you like that. But my guest today is Pat Jankiewicz. That's right Pat Jankiewicz author of you wouldn't like me when I'm angry. I'll Hulk companion. That's right. And episode by episode Companion of the legendary Kenneth Johnson series, The Incredible Hulk starring Lou Ferrigno and Bill Bixby. And we're getting big speed. We're getting Ferrigno. We're getting it all with Pat chenko. It's expert and guide to all things The Incredible Hulk I'm excited it used to be excited, especially the part about the Shi hog. That could have been all that's coming up in just a few seconds. I am excited to point out that this completes a trilogy of Episodes Episode 41 with Kenneth Johnson, the creator of The Incredible Hulk TV series, and episode 138 with Eric Allen Kramer who plays Thor in The Incredible Hulk returns all mentioned a lot in my interview with Pat Jankiewicz. So enjoyed those episodes after this one. Also, don't forget to enjoy if you haven't already, Episode 174 with George chick Charis Bernardo from the original West Side Story. I'm snapping anyway, if you're a jet or a shark, you're gonna love that episode. So check out Georgia Karis Hollywood legend but before you do that, I'm going to turn it over to my conversation with Pat Jankiewicz. It's in our deep dive into the Incredible Hulk TV series. Doo doo doo. Sock Enjoy. Hey everybody, I got a special guest today. Detroit's own Pat Jankiewicz author of you wouldn't like me when I'm angry. I'll Hulk companion. He is the world renowned expert on all things TV, Hulk, Lou Ferrigno, Bill Bixby. lucky to have on we're going to talk Hulk. What's up, Pat,

Pat Jankiewicz 3:01

the pleasure is mine Jeffrey, I like the deep voice on my name. Thank you. The Detroit Tiger hunt shirt. I can almost hear Hart Plaza behind you.

Jeff Dwoskin 3:12

So it's great to have you here. I love the Incredible Hulk TV show was one of my favorite shows growing up so when I found out you wrote a book on it, I was really excited. Lou Ferrigno is one of the people I met once at a comic con i have a photo with him when i Episode i use it and I have his autograph and the picture of signed hold on the wall growing up in my memories of the show you know very fond and I answer and the movies that follows and then we can talk through that some of the highlights of the of the actual series and then some of those return movies is sort of put capper on to the whole thing and some of the almost could have been like She Hulk and stuff like that. What got you into the Hulk like to write this book?

Pat Jankiewicz 3:54

As a Marvel kid? You're so used to TV movies and everything disappointing you. I mean, I love Spider Man. But in the 70s Spider Man series, they had some heart but they more often than not spider man would be in car chases and all this other stuff that wasn't really Spider Man. With the whole comic any kid who read Marvel Comics knew there was a sense of sadness and regret to the character. And when Kenneth Johnson's movies and TV series he got that perfect I mean, he was literally teaching nine year old melancholy which is really amazing, you know?

Jeff Dwoskin 4:28

Oh, totally. Yeah,

Pat Jankiewicz 4:29

the whole series is over gret the whole series is about a guy trying to find a way to stop the series you're watching that's meta.

Jeff Dwoskin 4:37

It is true it from day one, he's just say I gotta end this I gotta end this now. Even in the pilot, he's trying to Well, I guess in the pilot he accidentally makes the problem but then and then he has to kind of make up for that for those 82 episodes.

Pat Jankiewicz 4:53

Oh, very good. More of you're telling the to the pilot split into two parts and the TV will weeks

Jeff Dwoskin 4:59

right? Right. So what do you think sets I watched the pilot recently, actually. And so I watched I watched the pilot and then I watched death in the family, which is kind of the second pilot. But the first two episodes of the series, I gotta say like it holds up as a series is like kind of the way they approached it. And when I say it holds up, obviously, the transformation into the Hulk was over the time, right? So that's not like compared to now where you got Mark Ruffalo, or Ed Norton, or Eric Bana changing into the Hulk. This was of the time but in terms of the story, and how they approached it, and the seriousness and in a non cheesy factor, he really wasn't enjoyable watch.

Pat Jankiewicz 5:40

Yeah, and I think one of the reasons you've got to give it is having a human Hulk not going into this valley of the uncanny with this giant fleeted CG character. I think there's a lot of heart. I mean, you know, when you watch the show, they make it clear that Bill Bixby is Lou Ferrigno, you know, they behave the same way. Bill Bixby his banner is very much a humanist and he's looking out for people and he's always worried about people. And you can see that concern with the Lou Ferrigno character. You know, when the when the hug comes in Bixby his character is always preaching tolerance and non violence. So you can see it makes sense that his Hulk win just bought this fist and start punching people. And Kennedy Johnson told me, his big fear was that you would want Hulk to punch out his way at every problem. And by doing that, by not having a hug, Bob as tests and knockout Martin Culver, whoever the well, Martin Cove was one of the villains but you know, Charles Napier or whoever the villain of the week was, it made it more interesting show. Yeah, it's Marvel's first cinematic universe entering the Hulk more than Spider Man. And the terrible dr. strange pilot, the Hollywood more than spider man showed the general public when Marvel Comics could do. To me it's the colonization of the public. The Hulk TV series went on the air when DC Comics was at full strength with Superman, the movie and Wonder Woman, the series and Superfriends the cartoon, Marvel showed up and they showed what they could do. And I would argue that show probably in the TV movies before and after, did more to convert to people to Marvel Comics than anything until like 2000 is excellent movie.

Jeff Dwoskin 7:18

I wouldn't disagree with that. Yeah, because when you think back to the holiday, do you think back to the TV show? When you think back to the Hulk TV show, you always kind of think Wonder Woman two, you kind of think of them together then bionic man and Bionic Woman?

Pat Jankiewicz 7:31

None of the answer that they have the same just stars.

Jeff Dwoskin 7:33

Yeah, it's funny. I just rewatch I just rewatched the pilot of the Linda Carter Wonder Woman. It's kind of it's like a little mini movie. The first one. It's kind of funny. Steve Austin?

Pat Jankiewicz 7:43

No, no, Steve Trevor.

Jeff Dwoskin 7:46

Steve writer,

Pat Jankiewicz 7:46

what kind of big nerd Are you Dwoskin.

Jeff Dwoskin 7:50

My ask myself are saying Steve Trevor, you know get shot down gets onto the island is it's kind of similar to the first Wonder Woman movie. Some of the beats were the same in terms of how that worked. But it was interesting how they portrayed Nazis and all that kind of stuff.

Pat Jankiewicz 8:04

That pilot was showing me Catalina. The blonde is really charming. The blonde Amazon who helps find Steve Trevor on the beach. I'm blanking on her name, but I've interviewed her she'll be in an upcoming book. She's the girl she's one of the Glamis ons on Batman who put Batman and Robin and bad girl into a human Siamese not. She told me the hardest part about filming the pilot is they had them in these stiletto heels and they kept sinking into the sand when they're supposed to rescue. Trevor.

Jeff Dwoskin 8:33

That's fine and Cloris Leachman played Linda Carter's mother,

Pat Jankiewicz 8:36

Cloris Leachman as the Queen Hippolyta ship but here's the weird thing. Wonder Woman had like three moms during the run of the series, including the beautiful Carolyn Jones from the Addams Family.

Jeff Dwoskin 8:47

Interesting, interesting speaking of Addams Family,

Pat Jankiewicz 8:50

the lurch chastity,

Jeff Dwoskin 8:53

take Cassidy had a big role and the Incredible Hulk would you like to reveal that? Because actually, I didn't realize that until I read your book.

Pat Jankiewicz 9:01

Oh, I'm honored. Yeah. Ted Cassidy is the famous narrator, Dr. Damon banner and the opening credits. I think it was the roar of the Hulk. And ironically, the same year he did that he turned around and he did the voice of the thing on the all new fantastic for Cartoon Ted died in the second season. You know, he died, I think 49 or 50 of open heart surgery on an operating table. And Kenny Johnson decided he did such a great job as the voice though as the voice of the opening credits. He decided not to replace him, but he knew he would need more growls and different types of girls and confusion sounds from the Hulk. So he called in one of the bad guys of that week's episode, Charlie Napier, Charles Napier, who is the head of the good old boys and Blues Brothers. Right. I think he's one of those. He's the lead space hippie from Star Trek. Yes. Yeah. So he called him in goes Do you think do you think you could do The voice of the Hulk and I was so pleased I got Charles Napier like six months before he died. He grabbed my tape recorder it goes this is what I did for Kenny because it was easier doing the Hulk when I was smoking bring them more fun

Jeff Dwoskin 10:19

that's really funny. Yeah, I think I remember I remember at any time just being able to be like David Bruce Banner physician scientist searching for a way to tap into the hidden strength that all he didn't know overdose and gamma radiation interacts with his unique body chemistry. And now whenever David Banner grows angry or outrage, a startling metamorphosis occurs, sure. Isn't it the case that there are

Pat Jankiewicz 10:46

and they play, Ba ba ba ba ba ba they play a snippet of the song growing anger bump bump, bump up the growing anger. You know, the growing anger theme you hear whenever betters about the change was Joe arnelle. Doing the tech kowski is Right of Spring backwards. It's a Rite of Spring backwards. It's brilliant. Would that opening credits though? If you'd seen the one Hulk or no Hulk or 50 hogs, it immediately tells you who everybody is. You know about Jack McKee, you know about banners on the run searching for a solution and that he's the Hulk. It's like the thing that Marvel Comics used to have, but they'd have two lines at the top of every comic book telling you who Bruce Banner Peter Parker, Steve Rogers is you read those two lines as a kid Okay, that's who he is. I'm gonna go with it. This is what the comics about.

Jeff Dwoskin 11:38

Oh, yeah. And I don't think I'd heard that. Don't make me angry. You wouldn't like me when I'm angry was in the opening. One of the greatest lines ever.

Pat Jankiewicz 11:46

The great thing about the line is Kenny Johnson story because you got that color that line it to the Hulk was a 15 year old character. And he wasn't a very particularly successful character. You know, in Marvel, they originally canceled the the first one and the Incredible Hulk was cancelled on issue six. And so what happened is, Kenneth Johnson took this 15 year old character, and he added that line and then became part of the Hulk that line is joined to the Hulk as Hulk Smash. You know, which everyone knows in the comics, Hulk Smash, is the greatest line associated with the Hulk. When the comics adopted, don't make me angry. You wouldn't like me when I'm angry. And Johnson wrote it. And he said, When Bill Bixby delivered the line, he kept missing it up until he goes to make me angry. He will let me when I'm angry, and he grabbed Bixby and he goes, Bill, it's a joke. I think it's Oh, got it. So when he says that long, drawn out dumping, you wouldn't like me when I'm angry. That's for you in the audience to laugh at because you and the audience knows what's gonna happen when he gets angry. It's such a brilliant line. I mean, to me, that's almost the Hudson equivalent of with great power.

Jeff Dwoskin 12:57

In the Avenger movie. They sort of call it back. Yeah, my secret. I'm always angry.

Pat Jankiewicz 13:02

That is the most Bixby they've ever put into a ruffle. Oh, God bless him. was doing Bixby right down. I think there's even a shot of him in denim at one point. It was a complete that Norton threw in some brewers some some dope XP banner into his characterization. A banner, I thought was almost too morose. You know what I mean? I mean, because Bill Bixby is always you can tell he's pained and saddened by what's happened to him, but he still has hope. Whereas I think Eric Bana played him without hope. And Norton did a pretty good job. He turned some Bixby isms. But Raffaello and Joss Whedon were deliberately going for help expand I think they got it. Getting the Hulk right and Avengers is one of the reasons the first film was such a blockbuster.

Jeff Dwoskin 13:45

Yeah, I agree. They finally because while I enjoyed the movies, The Incredible Hulk and well I enjoyed the credible Hulk with Ed Norton more than I enjoyed the Eric Bana one. But when the Avengers it was clear, the Hulk is a great team member. Wait, it's a great one. He's part of an ensemble. The Hulk works best in the movies, which I think is why I think that the Thor movie Ragnarok also was great, because the two of them together, it was just a good good chemistry, which spoiler was first done in the Hulk TV show, but we can get to that later.

Pat Jankiewicz 14:18

By the way. Eric Kramer who played the original Thor is a Michigander like us

Jeff Dwoskin 14:23

that you have to we'll have to call him later. Now he's great. I my kids got to know him through Good Luck Charlie, and I'd always be like

Pat Jankiewicz 14:32

okay, you know what, it's funny you should say that I interviewed him for my book in his dressing room on the first five episodes are Good Luck Charlie and hadn't yet been on the air. And the little girl the main girl on good luck, Charlie Chaplin coming into our, into his dressing room during our interview, and she goes, I just want to watch someone getting interviewed. And of course, she became a huge star after that thing went out there.

Jeff Dwoskin 14:57

I enjoyed that TV show. It was a fun one to watch with. Kids because Kim and his wife are just I found hilarious. So it was definitely something definitely something easy to watch with the kids who are obsessed with all those Disney type shows.

Pat Jankiewicz 15:10

What does the hilarious thing if you look at the picture my book, this week, we shot the interview. We did the interview and it was 110 in the valley. Everyone was sweating their guts out. And poor Eric as you'll see the picture of him in my book. He's wearing a Santa Claus outfit, because in July they were shooting the Christmas episodes.

Jeff Dwoskin 15:32

Well, that's we'll get we'll get more to Eric and Thorne a little bit more. Sure. So what were some of the the issues that Kenneth Johnson had was specifically with Stanley and getting this adaption made the way because there were definitely changes made even his name is Bruce Banner right so

Pat Jankiewicz 15:51

that's where Stan Kim and Stan was sort of the gatekeeper he didn't want to get burned like you did on Spider Man. You know where you got to consultant credit and then you know and then there's no super villains Spider Man doesn't Spider Man is quiet. Instead of doing the smart thing when they understand guy doing all the stunts of Spider Man, they kept Spider Man quiet it would have been the easiest thing in the world do to have to have Nicolas Hammond making wisecracks but they never do that. He talked more on spreading super stories in the electric company that did the show.

Jeff Dwoskin 16:21

Electric Company.

Pat Jankiewicz 16:23

Exactly exactly what Morgan Freeman is easy reader by the way.

Jeff Dwoskin 16:29

Hey, don't get angry, but I need to take a quick break. And thank you all for your support of the sponsors. When you support the sponsors. You're supporting us here at Classic conversations. And that's how we keep the lights on. And now back to my amazing conversation with Pat Jankiewicz. We're about to dive deeper into the Kenneth Johnson Stanley negotiations, and we're back.

Pat Jankiewicz 16:50

But still Lee acted as kind of a gatekeeper and I think he and Johnson went back and forth early on the second pilot, which you just watched. Stan wanted the bear to be a robot bear. You know, he thought the fight would be more intensive. The Hulk had torn away part of the bears face and you will see these are robots. And he goes in he goes why can't it be a robot Johnson goes he goes you made Bigfoot a robot. Why can't the bear be a robot? Did we make the fight more savage? And the other tell him will stand six Wheeler man robotics or whatever the episodes about so you know me. The underlying thing in every episode is robotics. And it goes here I'm trying to play at the real world. I think it was big enough by that Bill Bixby turns into a giant monster. If the bad guy has unleashed a robot bear on him. Audience will be wondering why he got the money and how he got that.

Jeff Dwoskin 17:40

Right. There's only there's only so much an audience can accept in any given in moment once you push that too far.

Pat Jankiewicz 17:46

Exactly. But one of the things Johnson wanted to do that stand to his credit was adamant on not changing. He wanted to make the Hulk red because he thought anger was the car red like the button at the beginning of the credits. And understand said no, no, no, no, the Hulk is green. The Holika is green, the hook is green, he can't be red. And I think that was that was the appropriate Hill for him to die on. To maintain the look of the character. He also protested when they changed his name. And the compromise he and Kenny Johnson came up with was to put Bruce Banner as the middle name on the grave. Right and would you see every episode you see a nice tight customer at the end of the opening credits? Yeah, you don't even you see before it goes on the road. I think they both had territorial disputes, but I think they both made a good point doing I have not been read makes no sense to me. Every everything the whole TV series proposed a golden she holds a Red Hulk Marvel Comics adapted decades later, under Jeff Lowe.

Jeff Dwoskin 18:41

And even better the reason he's green is more just because of the way the color printing was. Originally. I think it was great.

Pat Jankiewicz 18:48

Yeah, it was damn one of them looked great, like Frankenstein and the black and white Boris Karloff movie. And they couldn't make Greg consistent color. But if you look at the cover of Hulk number one, they wouldn't when they do one of the reprints where they because most of the covers a hug number one, just snap a green tone on him. But the ones that do an accurately run the gray Hawk on the cover is not about luck. But I think the Green Hulk is so iconic.

Jeff Dwoskin 19:12

Right? I think even if they had done it, I think looking back now it would be weird. It just it would be a disconnect. Now I think the fact that he is green then helps. So are there were there any kind of major changes? I mean, obviously they some of the minor flaws were changed slightly for the TV show, but kind of kind of like the gamma radiation was similar but

Pat Jankiewicz 19:33

their heads again is changed by sunspots and you're like wait a minute, sunspots and crazy how can they make it a point of playing up the gamma radiation which I appreciate?

Jeff Dwoskin 19:42

Okay, so we have the opening movie The first oh wait before Lou Ferrigno is the Hulk, so Lou Ferrigno was not the first choice to play the Hulk.

Pat Jankiewicz 19:50

No, sir. He was not it was Mr. Richard kill a Detroit Michigan native by the way.

Jeff Dwoskin 19:57

Everything in the dog show ties back to Michigan. Have

Pat Jankiewicz 20:01

you listened to me if you look in my book anytime anybody in that cast or crew was in Michigan I mentioned it maybe she's is Detroit is town club.

Jeff Dwoskin 20:12

Richard keel for those who visually need a visual Jaws from the James Bond movies

Pat Jankiewicz 20:19

in the seven football cannibal from Twilight Zone deserve man.

Jeff Dwoskin 20:22

Oh yeah, yeah.

Pat Jankiewicz 20:24

Oh yeah, we talked about everything and of course the prisoner the prison football movie got the Longest Yard my brother Donald the ads hastily to me. Yeah the longest he's the prison guards were in the lobby. I bet the prisoner for the Longest Yard. But he was the Hulk. The ironic thing is he was the Hulk. He got the gig and the producer Frank price. The Universal Studios executive brought him from Flint, Michigan, brought his he's from Michigan to the guy who okayed Howard the Duck. So what's your customers W universal years later? So what happened is he brings his teenage son he has like a 14 year old son, he brings to the set and they're shooting by that lake. And that's the lake the little girl. You know, no adult actress. They actress she's an adult not an adult actress. But in the check for repo man. She's swimming in the pond. And they he's she said, Joe, you know when she falls in the water, one of the crew, one of the Teamsters decided to play a joke and her mom and leans over and tells her Do you know this water? The water was perfect, of course, because they use it movies to this very day. It's in Malibu Creek State Park, but one of the crew tells her mother, you know, while her daughter is swimming around the punch, because, you know, we never should hear because they caught polio pound. So the mother for the rest of the day is terrified her baby is drinking, drinking all this bad water that will give her polio. So it was Richard keel and Frank price pratas teenage son and the teenage son went on to become a director and actually did one of the leprechaun movies. And he's a really he's a big restaurant tour out in Beverly Hills now. So he comes down to the set with his dad. And he's a big Marvel comics fan and he sees Richard killed come out of the trailer greenskin the wig the torn shirt. And in front of all these universal execs. The only kid on set goes that guy ain't the hawk. But a lot of money on this pilot and about 15 Universal executive spots. And they realized Kenny Johnson goes they realized we take quiz and giving us the visual we need it because the Hulk has to be muscular. So for reshoots, they shot part of the day with kill of course, and the only shot of him as the Hulk you see in the upside down camera shot of him pushing the tree over. That's the only Richard kill shot you have left in the pilot. And he's long and tall. Not muscular. He looks more like he looks more like Tic Jurak does and the evil Hulk episode in Season Four.

Jeff Dwoskin 22:54

The first, right, right, right. You know,

Pat Jankiewicz 22:56

and so when you had him doing that, they realized they couldn't have him as the Hulk. So they auditioned a bunch of people and the two, the two who came closest to being the Hulk, were Arnold Schwarzenegger. And, and Lou Ferrigno, and Arnold's only 510. That's one of the big ugly secrets about Arnold. But Louie is six four. And so he said even though Louis was deaf, you look more like the common workaholic than Arnold and Kennedy Johnson said to Arnold's credit, he was the one who told them you ought to go see Lou Ferrigno, when they're commenting will have to give you lifts, which would be hard because he's barefoot, right? So they went, they went with Lou, even though Lou was deaf. He said he tried very hard. He gives him the visual and he said, Of course Louis was a perfect hawk. I mean, Kennedy Johnson, he can watch the show without wincing about how bad hawks hair was. He goes, that's the one thing on the show. He never got. Trying to find a way to make him inflate on camera was hard. But getting the Hawks hair to look normal and cool was always his battle on the show.

Jeff Dwoskin 24:00

Yeah, it's sometimes because they use the wig to sort of cover up the hearing aids, right?

Pat Jankiewicz 24:05

Yeah. And in fact, one of the horror stories on the book is Louie actually smacked one of the makeup artists who started slapping green paint on the hearing was like a shotgun shell going off on loose air when this guy started throwing, started smacking red painted green paint on it.

Jeff Dwoskin 24:24

Talk to me a little bit about the big speakers. Here's Bill's coming off Courtship of Eddie's father. I mean he's he's got a pedigree when it comes in now. He's going to be doing a superhero show which at the time probably wasn't seen as most prestigious next move. What made him want to do it? I mean, obviously it was amazing and, and turned it into something very special. But what was that like for him to make? This is such a big project.

Pat Jankiewicz 24:52

This is where he deserves a lot of credit. Up until this point, anybody playing a TV superhero was an unknown Linda corner ven Williams Bruce Lee Adam West Burt Ward. They're all essential unbeknownst to the audience, established actors when do that sort of thing because it was deemed childish and everything at the time. So for Bill Bixby to agree to do this, and I talked to Bill Bixby, his agent is in the book, Paul Brandon. Every now and then I would find when I was going after someone from the book, I was interviewing an actress who get started on the Hulk. I went to the really, really nice place in Marina Del Rey, and I realized she was married to Bill Bixby his agent and build these these agents is this tough New York type who doesn't want to answer any questions? And I literally before we should I did the interview. I go, I have to talk to you about this. I have to talk to you about this. He wouldn't talk about the death of Christopher Bixby Bixby son, but he would talk about what I made him do, and I can make the guy do anything but you don't. I mean, what I've convinced him to talk about was how he got Bill Bixby to do the pilot. Bill Bixby had been offered a script for some big TV miniseries, you know, to appearance because he was coming out rich man, poor man, which was a huge hit, but she helped her out. And he was gonna say he wasn't sure about the superhero script. He didn't want to be a superhero, but he liked the script a lot by Kenneth Johnson, like you said, it's still holds up. I mean, the character of David Banner is really interesting. And that script came into Paul Brandon, his agent to read and Paul told him, I think I was, you know, this is a great script, you know, and he goes is this is the quality of the show, you got to do it. And Bill Bixby wasn't sure and he looked over at me because belt, Gene Hackman and Marlon Brando are doing a Superman. I just have a feeling about this. And he turned out to be literally true. And of course, Superman The Movie was great too, but he ended so Bixby thought, I don't want the usual bait and switch where you see a great pilot and the series is terrible. So he made a handshake agreement with Ken Johnson that Kenneth Johnson calls his deal with the devil. He literally told him, I'll do the show. As long as you do the show. You leave the show. I'm gonna leave the show. So Jenna Johnson had to stay with the series. What happened? He was having problems Lindsay Wagner on the bionic woman. And so when he bailed on the Bionic Woman, Lindsay Wagner was having issues at the time and one of the problems was directed at him so when he left the bionic woman he was literally able to step in and write and direct Incredible Hulk

Jeff Dwoskin 27:24

Sorry to interrupt this amazing conversation with Pat Jankiewicz but we got to take a quick break and we're back with Pat Jankiewicz. It's diving deeper into Kenneth Johnson's role with the show and we're back.

Pat Jankiewicz 27:36

He did the beginning of every season except for he missed a season. I think he missed season two. No, no, he didn't season two. I think he missed season three, but he came back for season four. But he directed the beginning of the pilot the first pilot for every season, you know, he did married with which which one unheard of at one. And when married Hartley, the Best Actress and the Emmys that year with Bixby Bixby was in an uncomfortable position where he literally became the main character he was playing this guy whose family has dad and he's running with Paul and regret. Bill Bixby when he did the show was getting into a divorce with his wife Brenda Panay and Brendan for name was an actress who have been in love with them since she did an episode of courtship and his father and they got married and they had a baby the kid when they got the divorce, the kid went with the with Brenda and her new boyfriend, producer actor, Dawn admits who was in the Elsa series that she will feel so she will movie series, their kin Christopher I think was five or six. He under ski trip he got Epilim Titus, would you one in 5 million children get is really really rare. And the fact that they were in a ski hospital that was used to treating broken elbows and spraying legs, they didn't know how to treat it. And then they said a tracheotomy would have saved his life. Well, they thought that you know, his throat was closing up, he was unable to breathe, so they weren't able to save him. He died. Bixby became a shell of a man. I talked to so many people on the cast and the crew just stars and they were literally watching the guy fall apart and universal was actually on the verge of suing him back to work. We're gonna Patrick boy Riven, who dragged to the episode The son died. You know that, you know, when he got the news and everything else. He said an attorney, an attorney for universals black tower came down to make sure Bixby reported to work. And he said Bixby couldn't keep his his head straight. He was weeping. He would go veer from his dialogue, to suddenly talking about the pain and the how much pain he was in how his heart was breaking. You became almost chronically angry at Brenda blaming her for the child's death. And then when almost on the anniversary, Brenda Panay killed herself, and they said after that Bixby had no chance of closure, and he got very, very dark. Some of them even suggested he wished is cancer under himself?

Jeff Dwoskin 30:01

Such a tragic story? So, so sad? Yeah, he literally

Pat Jankiewicz 30:05

became the main character you and that's why he's so good in the final seasons. And usually in a show when a guy is playing a character a long time, they start to slough off, but he seems even more better in the final seasons and he wasn't a second seat. And that's because he became

Jeff Dwoskin 30:21

right life imitating art.

Pat Jankiewicz 30:26

Because remember, she played a woman who committed suicide over the death of a child on the Incredible Hulk episode, the psychic and the writer, the writer of that episode, she she goes, Oh, it was a stupidly prophetic. I wish I never wrote it.

Jeff Dwoskin 30:39

Oh, man. So yeah, that was I didn't I didn't really know any of that, to be honest with you. I mean, I knew eventually get sick. And I remember during the blossom years when he passed away and all that kind of stuff. I didn't I didn't know that about the tragedy until I was reading your book, because thanks for even putting more light on it right here.

Pat Jankiewicz 30:57

Well, you know, Loni Anderson told me when he was directing blossom, she was doing the show nurses next door. She went by and she said she told me he was one of the most handsome but she dated him and she told me she was one of the most handsome men she ever knew. And then to come see him so sick, so in pain, so doubled over with the stomach cancer that was claiming his life that he's using a chair he's hunched over a chair facing forward, he stooped over, not sitting down because he was in pain when he sat down pain when he stood up. So he's hunched over the sheriff directing an episode of blossom

Jeff Dwoskin 31:32

Yeah, it's tragic just to think about it this what disease can do to someone sorry showdown sorry. Let's let's talk about Kenneth Johnson. Kenneth Johnson made an amazing show out of the incredible Hawk but he also made one of my favorite shows of all time, which is V or the mini series is V. I don't know that TV show is one of my favorites, but the mini series the original Mini Series V. The original Mini Series is brilliant. And V the final battle I enjoy it, you know, it was young, but the first one

Pat Jankiewicz 32:07

Don't apologize. Like view. The final battle was directed by a great TV director named Richard Heffron. His son is a big producer now and his son prints the Spider Man movies. It's just Richard Heffron, did a lot of great movies. He did track down with Erik Estrada and Anna Archer. He's done he did a lot of great stuff via the panel battles a lot of fun and gentle Johnson's V. I mean, you can see them still so much for Independence Day and everything else. It's not even funny.

Jeff Dwoskin 32:35

Oh, yeah. Well, Independence Day, I think still purposely from everyone, but even the remake of the wasn't too bad. They I think they again at some time they would have caught on but I love the original Wii with Mark singer and now they the whole crew. I know a lot of them were even in the Hulk. Those actors, but it was jokes but

Pat Jankiewicz 32:53

good jokes. Yeah, making jokes. He was also a drummer for Bob Dylan. Unfortunately, I got him. Fortunately, I got him and when he was on the way out, but he's so good. And V I mean, V is such a blast. You look at Mark singer and I mean, I'm blanking on her name, but the wonderful actress who played Diana, you have one of the great aliens is one of my favorite be movie actors. The guy Andrew Prine from chrysalis. And he was like Toshack the Nightstalker he's, I think he's fantastic. And be I mean, Johnson basing V on the Nazis rolling into Vichy France, and saying, We're your friends. We're going to protect you from the polls and then attacking them. He wanted to do something about the Nazis coming into France. Well, nobody and he has to be one of them much of a donor. So he made them aliens, and everyone loves him.

Jeff Dwoskin 33:41

Right? It was really, it was really the Holocaust allegory. It was it was really, really well done. And I just I just remember, I mean, to this day, I just remember it was something that I watched with my dad it was it was really, really great. So he definitely has an excellent pedigree, and he did. He did bionic man and bionic woman too, or just just the bionic woman

Pat Jankiewicz 34:01

came on. He came under $6 million. Man. He's the guy who kickstarted 6 million men and the cool I mean, six months old Million Dollar Man had been kind of a spy show. It was just like a superpower James Bond. When he came onto it, he brought all the future elements the Bigfoot all the weird, cool alien stuff that came from Johnson.

Jeff Dwoskin 34:20

Very cool. So you got you got all these interesting names connected with the hawk. So Talk Talk me through so the whole show was interesting. I saw somebody post on Facebook. I wish I could remember who it was just someone on my feed was like, Hey, I hate to break it to everyone. But the Mandalorian is just a remake of the Hulk just going down.

Pat Jankiewicz 34:38

He's exactly right. And the Hulk itself was the fugitive. And I remember as a kid watching the Hulk and my mom would laugh and go, that's just a fugitive. But I never heard of the fugitive. You know what I mean? Right, right, right. Yeah, Kennedy Johnson didn't want to admit it was a fugitive knockoff. He said something like he goes I was doing Les Miserables, you know by Victor Hugo. Go on he can send it all he wants. He named the name he said he named banner after his son David. And I would argue that's true, but I think subconsciously he named banner David subconsciously after David Jensen, the star the fugitive, and runaway, the hog, and the hog uses a ton of guest stars from the fugitive. Harry Townes. The evil Hulk, the guy who plays Frey who turns in the evil hog herring Townsend was on memorably on several episodes of The Fugitive.

Jeff Dwoskin 35:31

There was a lot of contract players they went from show to show back then,

Pat Jankiewicz 35:35

and the hilarious thing is big speak David half the women who get started on the show. He was a player he was a complete player I mean, if you want a good story after we're done read the earthquakes happened chapter in my book. That's the one girl who did wasn't gonna give him the big span she goes, she says the makeup girl told her what to prepare for. It was pretty funny.

Jeff Dwoskin 35:58

Given a stories and how the song came about and

Pat Jankiewicz 36:02

yeah, the lonely man, you know, a lonely man. Jenna Johnson said he was done with bombax He said every universal show from that period. Bom bom bom everything's bombastic. Look at the theme to Battlestar Galactica, look at the theme to you know, the theme to $6 million. Man. It's all been my mom being organ Even 20 has, you know, so you wanted to do something opposite that and he said he sat down with a Horned Owl the composer Joe arnelle. Brunel, whose son Jess Harnell is the voice on picking the brain and the end the Animaniacs he sat down with him. And he told Joe hard No, I really want it's a it's a guy in his own. He's all alone. You know, how many one and he said in the heart? No. hit the pimping Bing Bing Bing Bing Bing Bing is me like this. And he said, Yeah, that's perfect. But of course, him hitchhiking to get away. i None of us realized this kid. That's the ending of the fugitive TV series every week. I said the on the fugitive. He's doing it in a three piece suit instead of a windbreaker or khakis or a lumberjack

Jeff Dwoskin 37:08

shirt. Right, right.

Pat Jankiewicz 37:10

It was a hard book to write. I mean, it's a two part book. And I remember, I remember you have this when it was just it was two pounds. I was like, two thirds through it and nowhere near daylight. You know what I mean? I mean, I interviewed over 110 people for the book. I was no I had notes. I had tapes, I had photos, I had everything all around my office, and I'm leaving on my computer and I just I hit this dark night of the soul who is this? Who is this going to be for doesn't even give a damn about the Hulk anymore. And in my friend God, he didn't know he was working on the book and she sent me that week's family God and family guys opening credits that week were shot for shot parody of The Incredible Hulk. And it was suddenly clear to me okay, this is a cult thing people know and love it. And I knew I had to finish the book and that that little shout out and family guy literally gave me an impetus to finish it.

Jeff Dwoskin 38:05

It's awesome. So very two episodes, he travels town to town searching for a cure, which he never finds. The show ends six year while it's cancelled. Probably it was still at the height right? It still was getting good ratings, but a new guy come new guy comes into town shortens the season five decides maybe this isn't going to happen anymore. There are

Pat Jankiewicz 38:27

two reasons for that there have been a devastating Writers Guild of America strike. And that's also what finished Buck Rogers. You know, remember Buck Rogers had that abbreviated second season. What happened is basically unless you had fantastic ratings, you are going down while it was expensive show and it still had a big following, but the ratings are middling in compared to like something like Dallas. So it was easier to euthanize to halt and you know, deal with the money and the packs and everything else. So they killed himself. And you're wondering how it came back. Right.

Jeff Dwoskin 38:59

I am wondering how it came back. Yes.

Pat Jankiewicz 39:01

So what happens is Marvel Comics falls, they leave kittens, industries and everything else, and they fall into the hands of Harry Evans Sloane New World Pictures, low budget production house. They make fun junk like bloodfest they would make stuff like Angel but the teenage honor student has also Hollywood hooker know they've got Marvel Comics on Marvel Comics Marvel Comics of the year they took over and I think 8787 88 Marvel comics was only known for two things in live action. One was the hook TV series. And the other was the year before is ginormous bomb of Howard the Duck. And they saw how well Hulk was doing in syndication that the series was syndicated across the country incredibly popular overseas and in Europe, so they decided to make a deal with HP to bring the Hulk back. And Lou Ferrigno got pumped up. He looked really good in the in the return movies, so they do the Incredible Hulk return. which is they bring back two bad guys from the series. They bring their Charles Napier and they bring back Mickey Jones. And this time they they decided to pair the Hulk off with an actual Marvel character and that's when they brought in ERIC Kramer as the Hulk

Jeff Dwoskin 40:13

as Thor.

Pat Jankiewicz 40:14

Sorry as a star. Sorry. Yeah. So they bring it in. They make a low budget, Hulk Vs Thor fight and everything else. And it creams everything else on TV that way. It kills it kills everything, it's time slot to get huge ratings. So that means it's time for the trial. The Incredible Hulk because legal shows are really popular at the time, la law and movies like jagged edge. So the next one is they bring in Daredevil and and the kingpin. You know, in doing Incredible Hulk, well, the rays are still huge for that. It was up against a Jo Beth Williams TV movie, I think about BBM you know, which was something at the time, a botched adoption. That was supposed to be the big Emmy winner ratings getter and troll the Incredible Hulk kills it. So then they do the death of the incredible hawk. And that also crushes everything in its time slot. And the thing is, they were not planning that to be the end of the Hulk. When I suspect Bixby wanted that to be the and I, I don't have proof of this, but I think he had a beard in trouble. The Incredible Hulk I suspect he had a beard because his cancer comeback. He was probably trying to hide his godness you know, I really do believe because it was 10 years after the series and they came back got huge ratings brought everything back. I think Judge Magee had had a couple of heart attacks by then so he only shows up on the first pilot. And of course, he had a comeback of his own in 1988 as the as the tortured to death psychiatrist by Chucky the doll and Charles clay, so they're definitely Incredible Hulk would the female scientist tells me they were planning on going right back getting right back into it. And they left the set standing and everything. But of course, it never happened. They had Revenger The Incredible Hulk written by an esteemed oh, what's his name? The the guy who wrote he created the pocket aliens for Star Trek, he wrote in a big TV movie Big bombastic how they brought back the Hulk guy, they brought him back to life. The scientist couple from the last TV movie, bring them back to life, but they can never get that going. You know, and I think part of it is I think Bixby was sick again. And I think he saw with an incredible hulk it was a good excuse to tap out.

Jeff Dwoskin 42:29

Right? Right. Because like you said they there was a whole rebirth concept that they would because they never they never really kill any characters but there was also a She Hulk there were there was a tease in that where they he trans fuses right or something.

Pat Jankiewicz 42:43

Elizabeth Grayson, former Miss America contestant, Elizabeth Grayson, she went on to star as a superhero eventually on Raven, syndicated Highlander spin up Elizabeth Grayson, she plays in what is everything but name the Black Widow. It's clear, she's the Black Widow, they never color the Black Widow. I think the argument was Bixby had told the producers if we're going to kill him off, I just wanted to be him. You know, he goes, there's no need for another superhero to be there. If I'm the one who's going out, you know what I mean? I mean, he just wanted to him and Lo. And that makes a lot of sense. Actually. Do that. Yeah, there's they do that. And then a couple years later, they go to Jill the one of the CO writers in the hug TV series. And they say we'd like to do a Jill donner, Jill Sherman daughter had to remember that. Sorry, Joe. So they go back to her. She writes a TV movie for them, you know, loosely based on the plot of Stanley's She Hulk number seven, she hugged number one, and in it, she becomes she's not related to better now. And they fall in love when she gives them after she gives them a blood transfusion after he gives her a blood transfusion. And her Hulk, the scrims not, you know, the concept they saddled her with isn't that great? She gets a blood transfusion. She turns into this gold, this gold giant tests with red hair and green eyes. And her difficulty in the script is she's blinded by bright lights, and since half of the script takes place in Vegas, they have the Lou Ferrigno Hulk cast to come in and drag her off stage where she can be killed because she's completely like a deer in headlights when she's hit with bright lights. I don't think it would have made a very successful series. They hadn't Mitzi capture starring a new world got really greeted Mitzi capture is a great actress. She is one of the She's the One True Mother of syndicated TV, her and Baywatch. She did the show silk stockings, and they had her playing Jennifer the Jennifer Walters character and what happened their New World got greedy and said we need a name for the banner character. So they had the perfectly great Mitzi. They had her shooting the pilot and while this poor girl is shooting the pilot, they're trying to find a celebrity to play she hooked They have this terrible idea of getting Melissa Gilbert and when Melissa Gilbert refuses to do it, they sort of give up on it and pull the plug on the project if they filmed the pilot all the way through they would have had a syndicated TV movie with the with one of the biggest 90 syndicated stars and Mitzi capture

Jeff Dwoskin 45:18

opportunity missed.

Pat Jankiewicz 45:20

Yeah, completely.

Jeff Dwoskin 45:21

So how would you define the legacy as a rat as a wrap up? How would you define the legacy of the Hulk TV show?

Pat Jankiewicz 45:29

For me it's the it's the first flag is the first flag and pop culture lead by Marvel Comics. It put Marvel on the map. Hulk sales were never great until the show came on and then Hulk sales were huge. You know, he was up there with X Men and Spider Man introduced the world to Marvel Comics done right. Even though there were a lot of compromises from the comic to the screen. It's the closest you got to a Marvel character until blade in 1998. Followed by you know, X Men. It was Johnson captures the the sadness and the tragedy of both the banner character and his alter ego. And I would argue it's the first flag and pop culture. It's not a surprise that the Incredible Hulk pilot was done in 1977. The same year when pop culture went full on fantasy with the release of Star Wars, it was such a sonic boom in terms of superheroes shows, especially in the 70s, where they were pushing back on the wonderful Batman TV series in the 60s. They didn't want to be accused of camp, so they did away with all costumes. If you watch the Spider Man TV series, he is seldomly in the costume. If you watch the other superhero shows, I looked at them when I was working on the book, you look at stuff like the man from Atlantis, and he spends the whole show running around in a windbreaker. I mean, there was no superhero uniforms or anything else. And with the hug torn pants and green skin are his costume. So having him in not just it was the first introduction to the world to Marvel Comics and what they could do for Hollywood.

Jeff Dwoskin 46:59

Amazing wrap up and then everyone I do want you guys to check out you wouldn't like me when I'm angry Oh companion by Pat Jankiewicz. And it is great. And this covers tons of stuff. It takes you episode by episodes. If you if you have a fondness for the show a memory or just kind of want to learn more about it. Grab the book. It's great. There's stories about Rick Springfield, and there were Kim Cottrell. tons of other great stuff as well. There's a million little tidbits, great photos, all this great stuff. Pat, thank you so much. I can't thank you enough for hanging with me and hooking out with me, if you will.

Unknown Speaker 47:32

Oh, no. Jim, how do you say your last name? I think I heard your name but as Dwoskin or Yeah. Dwoskin. Yeah, I love that. We both have those hard to pronounce Michigan names. Yeah, no, Jeff, thank you so much. People can order the book on Amazon or Barnes and noble.com forward by Lou Ferrigno. I also wrote the Buck Rogers in the 21st century a TV companion and if you guys want sharks even though you won't find them in Lake Erie there is just when you thought it was safe Ajaz companion to for your reading enjoyment.

Jeff Dwoskin 48:00

Awesome. I'll have you back on we'll talk about one of those books that'll be Johnson was

Unknown Speaker 48:04

a true pleasure my friend

Jeff Dwoskin 48:06

All right how amazing with Pat Jankiewicz. Let's I know right check out his book. You wouldn't like me when I'm angry all companion check out Buck Rogers in the 21st century a TV companion and just when you thought it was safe, a Jaws companion all Patrick jank awaits classics. I hope you enjoyed our deep dive into the Incredible Hulk as much as I enjoyed diving into that show. How about that She Hulk stuff huh? Crazy right? Well, eventually we got our She Hulk well with the interview over I can only mean one thing I know it's time for another trending hashtag and the family of hashtags it hashtag round up download the free always free hashtag app from the Google Play Store iTunes App Store follow us on Twitter at hashtag roundup tweet with us and one day one of your tweets may show up on a future episode of Classic conversations fame and fortune awaits you. This episode is hashtag is #MakesMeWantToHulkOut completely unrelated to this episode. I know it's a little off book but add to do it. This Hulk tag comes from hanging over tags and of course is inspired of course. I can't pull you guys from our amazing interview with Panchenko it's on the incredible HK so what makes you hulk out use #MakesMeWantToHulkOut tag us on Twitter at Jeff Dwoskin show I'll show you some Twitter love in the meantime, here are some previously tweeted #MakesMeWantToHulkOut tweets for inspiration. People who don't give you a courtesy wave when you let them in and traffic I hate that are watching the train leave the platform just as you arrive that makes me want to hold out or bears especially the robotic kind Am I right if you know ya know, these #MakesMeWantToHulkOut tweets are right on point your lack Have blinker usage. You're going to change lanes let us know people when someone calls Millennials old, nosy hashtags poking around my business Don't make me angry. You wouldn't like me when I'm angry. Oh, when I accidentally get my cousin's gamma radiation and blood into my bloodstream All right, we had to throw in. She Hulk people being mean or abusive to dogs or cats #MakesMeWantToHulkOut. Damn right. work emails after hours, people walking in front of me and then stopping suddenly. Oh, nothing more annoying than that are days that don't start with a s and end in a ye. #MakesMeWantToHulkOut also asking me what would Jesus do? And our final #MakesMeWantToHulkOut to eat. They put cilantro on a thing I asked for without cilantro. It's like you know my wife or do do do I write those are some amazing #MakesMeWantToHulkOut tweets all retweeted at Jeff Dwoskin show go show him some Twitter love. Tweet around. Have a good time. Well, where the hashtag over? I can only mean one thing time to hog out. No, no, it means the end of the episode has arrived. I can't believe it either. Episode 175 as come and gone, thanks to my special guest, author Pat Jankiewicz. And thanks to all of you for coming back week after week. It means the world to me, and I'll see you next time.

CTS Announcer 51:35

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Transcribed by https://otter.ai