#296 The Secret Sauce: Unwrapping McDonald’s Mysteries with Chef Mike Haracz

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Jeff Dwoskin 0:28

All right, Sherry, thank you so much for that amazing introduction. You get this show going each and every week, and this week was no exception. Who will come everybody to Episode 296 of classic conversations. As always, I am your host, Jeff Dwoskin. Great to have you back. For what sure the most delicious episode of all time. My guest today is Chef Mike Harris, former McDonald's corporate chef, he's here to spill all the filet o fishes I guess. And that's coming up in just a few seconds. And in these few seconds and Moses of Tiger Beat was here last week. Do not miss that episode and had a million stories to share. Right now. We're breaking some exclusives. Some MC exclusives with Chef Mike. Maybe I don't know how exclusive they are. We're diving into what is the maker app? What is the plan fish? Why are those ice cream machines always broken? Why am McDonald's french fries the best french fries also LTO means limited time offer. I realize we say that a lot during the episode. So I just wanted to let you know what that means. That's a product that appears in a store for a limited time. So to put you in the McDonald's mood Big Mac fillet a fish quarter pounder, french fries, ice Coke, thick shakes, sundaes and apple pie and the cup ran away with this spoon. I enjoy my conversation with Chef Mike Harris. All right, everyone, I'm excited to introduce my next guest, the former global manager of culinary innovation for McDonald's. I'm excited to chat it up with Chef Mike Haracz, a chef Hello. Hello. Pleasure to

Chef Mike Haracz 2:16

be here. Thanks for having me.

Jeff Dwoskin 2:17

I'm excited to talk about McDonald's in your background. And I'm a big fan. We follow each other on Twitter forever been a big fan of all your content. But after watching the bear I'm just excited to literally be able to call someone chef

Chef Mike Haracz 2:30

love it. You could call me chef you could also regular Mike whatever works for anyone. Usually I'd say if you are working in my kitchen, and I have the chef coat on and we're doing Sheffy things. All right, you can call me chef. If I'm walking down the street in flip flops and my workout attire just Mike is fine. I

Jeff Dwoskin 2:49

feel like the TV show The Bear sort of elevated the title of Chef and so now it's like Chef Mike would be something I'd want to call you. I

Chef Mike Haracz 2:57

mean I'm sure this show helps quite a bit maybe because I'm living that life it's just always been around but maybe that gives the average folk a little more incentive to call somebody chef and its meaning and all that but I am a big fan of the show as well.

Jeff Dwoskin 3:12

I started calling my wife chef. Perfect how'd that go over go over? Well, we do we go here we go heard chef or like nice find you love it. So I love all your Tiktok I was stalking all your things I think you'll find a lot of energy and kind of power on Tik Tok. I will say up front if at any point you bring up catch up, the interview is over. I

Chef Mike Haracz 3:34

do need to clarify stuff that I love ketchup in things. I love ketchup in sauces. And I love ketchup on burgers. But if somebody is making knockoff does tastes just like Big Mac sauce. And if they put ketchup in it, that is wrong. There is no ketchup in it. So that is the only way or only reason I get upset about ketchup is when somebody claims it's in their authentic knockoff Big Mac sauce. I don't even get mad if you're like, hey, I made this Big Mac sauce but I made some changes to make it to my own preference. And if you add ketchup to that awesome because you're not trying to recreate the original, you're doing your own thing. Cool. So it's a very fine line of be getting upset about ketchup and me not so much. It's a pretty

Jeff Dwoskin 4:20

hard line you got on it is not very high. You're like Gordon Ramsay kind of guy coming down and making the world safe for homemade Big Mac sauces. I can't say I've had a Big Mac in a bit. But growing up eating my fair share of Big Macs. It never even occurred to me to make my own Big Mac sauce yet it happens to be an entire thing on at least tick tock That's

Chef Mike Haracz 4:44

right. And because of where I've worked in the past and my following now when I say things on the internet, it seems like they're trying to make news out of things. Sort of those social media news outlets of this former chef said this I I was Tiktok and make a whole article about it. And I'm like, I spent 30 seconds in my car before going into my real job just like what should I say? I don't know, how about I do this. And now it's a very important journalistic written up thing when I just was just talking for 30 seconds just to fill some time. So that's cool.

Jeff Dwoskin 5:19

And Chef, I gotta say, we'll get to some of those like, because the world needs to know why 1030 is the worst time to eat. And we'll get to it. We're gonna get there. I want to talk about r&d, food r&d. But just to let you know, I worked at Little Caesars headquarters in Detroit for four years. And so for the first three years of those, I was part of the digital team. So I helped bring them into the world of E commerce. But part of that was becoming very close with the r&d team, because they held all the ingredients and I had to go to them for a lot of clearance on stuff and make sure that food, disclaimers and all that kind of stuff. Where right, I came to learn that the greatest people to know at a food company are the r&d, folks, because what you see come out of the kitchen into the stores is just a fraction of the cool stuff that kind of happens course behind the scenes. I know. You're famous for your buttermilk crispy chicken line. That's that's you first talk to me about kind of how you got into becoming a chef. Like what was it? Was it something that just always been natural to you from when you were younger? You just you love cooking? What was your early inspiration there?

Chef Mike Haracz 6:30

Yeah, so I grew up cooking with Mom and Grandma, you know, I'm from the Midwest. So from the suburbs of Chicago, I would be eating hamburger helper. You know, my parents were not for me at all your typical Midwestern suburban mom food of like white people tacos and the chicken and rice with rice Cerrone kind of scenario. So I never grew up with super fine dining gourmet, but I just always loved cooking love being around food, when I was in even junior high, when you start getting electives, I was one of the few male students in the home ec class. So I can so very well as well, and do laundry, iron, all of these things that are very valuable. So always loved it. But then when I got into college and learn, you know, I worked in restaurants starting at 15, I was part of this thing called ProStart program where I got to work in kitchens earlier than most other than you know, under the table, working at your friend's restaurant, like I did a little of that as well starting to get paid working in kitchens was that 15 gotten the culinary school and quickly learned, I don't want to open my own restaurant the chance of success, the hours nights, weekends and holidays. The story goes that I also play guitar and wanted to be in a metal band after graduating. So nights, weekends and holidays that show night, I couldn't be gonna be cooking in the kitchen, I gotta be up front melting the faces. So kind of a little bit fell into the r&d world, just because I knew I wanted to have a life. Also, it's a little more career safe. If you could get into it. Just because you are not working in a singular restaurant, you're more in that corporate nine to five world. So there's just a lot of opportunity to cook and do the other fun stuff, which as you're aware, I do a lot of the other fun stuff too, which might not have been able to happen had I worked in traditional restaurants the rest of my life, and then worked in food manufacturing since 2006. In a variety of different companies developing stuff for many of the top 200, chain, restaurants, supermarkets, there's a good statistical probability that anyone listening to this has eaten something I've developed. If you eat food at a supermarket, or chain restaurants, I've been around, there's a possibility, yada, yada, fast forward got to be the manager of culinary innovation for McDonald's. And now I am a corporate executive chef for a global ingredient supplier. So I'm still doing r&d stuff, but having a good old time.

Jeff Dwoskin 9:05

Can you disclose any of these Chef Mike creations that you mentioned a moment ago?

Chef Mike Haracz 9:12

That's exactly items. But you could imagine the top 200 chain restaurants, all the big dogs that you'd expect. I've been in their corporate kitchens, I visited Taco Bell, Burger King Chick fil A KFC all the pizza places, because not only would I you know, I worked at McDonald's as an end user. A lot of my time was either ingredient or product manufacturers which could be sold to any of these companies. So I was all over the place. Alright,

Jeff Dwoskin 9:41

I'll name something and secret and then you tell me if you worked on it rhymes with Blokker.

Chef Mike Haracz 9:46

No, that was one. That was before that was well for my time.

Jeff Dwoskin 9:52

What is the because I know a little caesars. The r&d team had a lot of space. It's not like here's your corner of the Kitchen type thing. It's like I remember once we saw something on Reddit, and we and I took it to them and we tried to make it, it was like one of the people in the store. That was one of the things I see you have clips on Tik Tok all the time were people in the store would post stuff. And especially when I was on the marketing side, it was like, that was the stuff that like would ruin our day, because it was like, no, no, you can post stuff on behind the scenes people don't understand. I know like in your videos, like they wear blue gloves when they're touching protein in the United States, at least. Right? And so when you're making pizzas, you weren't using gloves, because then you're cooking it. And so that was pretty and so but people wouldn't understand that. And it would cause white AR and on drums. Yep,

Chef Mike Haracz 10:41

of course, he's touching raw sausage that he's putting on a pizza. Well, in the United States, it's not a ready to eat food. So technically, you don't need gloves for that you would need gloves if you're washing produce or salad that is not gonna be cooked things of that nature. But yes, constantly, the internet and humans love to give their opinion on things that they have no understanding of.

Jeff Dwoskin 11:03

Oh, yeah, it's amazing. And just to be clear, there was a very strict hand washing process at Little Caesars. And you know, if you touch your face or anything back to the Washington, I

Chef Mike Haracz 11:12

mean, and that is that's still a big debate internally in the US is very used glove heavy compared to any other country. So other countries will be like, Why would use gloves because that's a false sense of feeling like your hands are clean, where if I did not have gloves, I can literally, I know my hands are dirty, I'm gonna go wash them. And the proper procedure in the US is anytime you change gloves, you are supposed to wash your hands for putting on a new pair of gloves. So I just washed my hands Why am I wearing a pair of gloves as well, I have to abide by the US surf safe and you know sanitation codes. I cannot influence in that area. So I follow the rules. However they're listed are posted. disclaimer that I follow the

Jeff Dwoskin 11:59

disclaimer, disclaimer. Yeah, it's all good. Because then the food's cooked. I mean, it is weird watching people like put lettuce on and with no gloves. I do get where, like, I don't even like when the waiter brings my salad and their thumb touches the legs. It's just a thing. And I mean, yeah,

Chef Mike Haracz 12:15

absolutely. And that's, you know, again, that is why servers are supposed to put food on trays when bringing it to your table to avoid some of that touching of the plates and a lot of food code, a lot of visible food safety things are in place purely because that's what consumers want. That's a big reason why ingredients come and go, you know, food manufacturing, whether it's with scientific data supporting why we should not eat this thing, or people's general opinion, whether it's, you know, like I said, not fat base, they just said, I don't want this. And if enough people say that it's bad, then it gets removed from food sources did

Jeff Dwoskin 12:54

McDonald's across the country, let's just focus on the US for a second have as a chef like in certain places, they couldn't make this or didn't carry because like if I remember like it the different pizza places, some would have jalapenos, some use this kind of mushroom some use this kind of mushroom, you know, there wasn't it wasn't like 100% always consistent. Sometimes that's supplier issues for the part of the place in the country. They might be by even like pricing could be different. You guys had the same franchise corporate owned.

Chef Mike Haracz 13:26

Yeah, it was now I think it's even more than 90% are franchisee owned versus corporate because that makes more money for the organization. McDonald's, US is very regional, there were regional items that would be sold. For instance, in the East Coast. There's the MC lobster, so main and up in those parts would be like a lobster roll in California, there was the Gilroy garlic fries. There was a national launch of them, I don't think they sold as well. And we could not call them Gilroy garlic because that's not where the garlic came from. There is like scratch made biscuits and gravy in certain McDonald's locations in the south. And that is very much based on consumer demand trends, you know, originality, things of that nature. But it does make nationally launching any items difficult not only for sourcing ingredients, but all of those regional owner operators all have a voice, they can vote on what they want in their marketing window they can vote on do they want the MC rib this season? Or do they want to pass so a lot of times in those commercials at participating McDonald's because some regions are like now we don't we don't want the MC rib we got other stuff going on. And corporates like great. Our national launch thing with national advertising doesn't actually work in your area. Now a bunch of consumers are going to ask what is the MC rib? And what do we say in from a PR perspective?

Jeff Dwoskin 14:53

Yeah, I understand that and like from an r&d point of view when you were to or the team that developed the MC lobster, which I really wish they would bring, I would love that. Yeah, that would bring me I would go to McDonald's for that. Is the lobster brash? Or is it like frozen? Or couldn't you get that lobster what kind of lobster is it is it's legit, it's legit lobster, right?

Chef Mike Haracz 15:14

It is legit lobster it was from Frozen. But it is the same source that a lot of those lobster roll carts you might find in that area that sell kind of lobster roll very basic. It's the same lobster that everyone else is getting. It's not just like McDonald's beef is bought on the open market because they're not vertically integrated like they are with chicken vertically integrated means they own the farms to feed the Ag the chicken, they sell off parts that they don't use yada yada McDonald's beef is bought totes of 10s 20s 30s, which is lean to fat ratio is bought on the open market like everybody else. It's ground in their facilities. It's the same beef that you buy at your supermarket, but people don't believe it. People think it's got all kinds of stuff in it. And that's another fun part of my r&d job. When I have been in the place, looking at the thing being made, can see the labels I know label legality and how things need to be labeled and promoted. And I say yes, McDonald's is 100% all beef. And somebody said, No, I taste there's a something or other like, No, it's not you can believe whatever you want. But you're literally wrong. I'm telling you facts. And you don't believe me? Once that wall is hit, it's like, okay, you could say whatever you want. I'm not going to convince you otherwise, it's filled with whatever. Enjoy that. I

Jeff Dwoskin 16:38

understand that frustration too. Because they'll Caesars the dough is fresh. The sauce was made almost every day. And you know, as an employee, you had to work in the stores. I don't know if they do that in McDonald's. But the corporate folks had to work in the stores for a couple of days every year, which was an amazing experience. I made sauce. Yeah, I mean, I guess I did. Yeah. So I like you know, and then it's like, you know, you know, firsthand, it's good stuff. But everyone has this weird perception of if it doesn't cost a lot, it can't be good. But talk about like, from an r&d point of view, how much time thought and effort goes into, all right, we need this Big Mac to be $3.49, or whatever it is, and like, and how you kind of make that happen?

Chef Mike Haracz 17:23

Sure. So I'm not sure how it was at your place. But it McDonald's and most of the r&d kind of jobs that I've had, it's always reported to marketing. So it's always been kind of a marketing wing. A lot of times, especially at McDonald's one of the reasons why I left this because marketing would tell you this is what we need, there wasn't really an opportunity to to say we're industry experts, we think the menu should have something like this, that really there was not really that opportunity. So marketing would say, All right, we have a bunch of data supporting why we need this spicy thing. We've got technomic chainstore, guide mentelle Our sales data, seeing what's on store shelves, here's all the reasons why we want something like this. Here's our toolbox of ingredients we can or cannot use for whatever reason, we don't want artificial anything. All right, so we know we can't use that officials, we need natural XYZ ingredient is a hot button issue right now. So we don't want to use it, that doesn't mean that it is good or bad. That is going off of consumer trends, social media information, whatever it might be. So okay, don't use that, then they decide the marketing window when it's going to be sold, when it needs to be ready. We think it's going to sell best at this price. Because we have chicken nuggets that are kind of cheaper, we have a premium chicken sandwich, which is a little more expensive. So we want something at a price point kind of right in the middle to attract that kind of customer, maybe a $4 sandwich or whatever it might be. So as much information as we can get upfront, the better for r&d, because we will not waste our time with those things. Unfortunately, more often than not it's marking is like, hey, come up with the best chicken sandwich. Cool. Here's the best one way too expensive. And we don't like that flavor. And we don't think we should. So can you make it a lot cheaper? Now, what price do you want? I don't know, it needs to be cheaper. Give me the info you want. And I will make it like that so much easier. But there's usually a little disconnect trial and error, that kind of thing. So my point is usually r&d, at least in the capacity that I've been somebody is telling you this is what we need fit it in this box and how good can you make it with these parameters?

Jeff Dwoskin 19:40

In that scenario? Are we talking about full menu items or like longevity that menu items or limited time offers? Or both? Both?

Chef Mike Haracz 19:50

Yeah, even with LTE O's now with LTE O's, you could get away with a little more. We're gonna make this a ridiculous color and it's gonna You know, a pumpkin spice latte type thing where we want everyone to try it once we're going to try to run out of the stock of what we have. And then it's gone. Like there's some of that certainly happening in the industry. Obviously something like a chicken sandwich with the chicken sandwich wars when Chick fil A was growing rapidly, then Popeye launches a banger of a chicken sandwich. Alright, what are we going to do? Let's try to make a better core item. Those projects take a lot longer. There's a lot more consumer panels, consumer testing and things like that. But that is also dependent on the organization. I know Taco Bell, a little easier to be like, Hey, let's do a cool trendy thing with the ingredients we have and how do we make an Instagrammable It looks cool, and it's ridiculous. Watch it. Let's go where McDonald's is incredibly conservative, and will take way too long to launch all of the things and tested to heck and back. It's

Jeff Dwoskin 20:55

funny you mentioned Taco Bell. I was going to bring them up because I can't remember if it was like one of those, you know, five minute tic TOCs I watched or something on TV where it talked about Taco Bell's r&d hit to final menu product is like insane, like hundreds to one they'll just come up with Yeah, rapid taco on that taco get like just like you said, like they're, they're always shooting for the moon. Once

Chef Mike Haracz 21:19

the Doritos Locos taco came out the experiment with them from what I understand was it was very much a social media, let's just talk about it. We're not going to spend a lot of money behind it. And when that Dorito taco came out, it crushed. So talk about like, Alright, how do we make the next ridiculous thing that's, you know, unicorn Frappuccino from Starbucks or whatever it was? It's fluorescent colors, and all the sugar and filled with whatever, do you really need to spend a whole bunch of time and money putting that in consumer panels? Or is your team expert enough to understand like, this is gonna be this is ridiculous. Let's just launch it and get him get out. See what happens. Like you could save so much time and money and capitalize on the internet and capitalize on you know, it being successful in that manner without having to test it like it said vigorously. Like some other items.

Jeff Dwoskin 22:16

Sorry to interrupt, have to take a quick break. I do want to thank everyone for their support of the sponsors. When you support the sponsors. You're supporting us here at Classic conversations. And that's how we keep the lights on. And now back to my conversation with Chef Mike when you were at McDonald's how much I don't want to say corporate espionage because that makes it sound nefarious but fun for a movie if we were making movie The but how much were you kind of keeping you know trying to figure out what Burger King was doing or Wendy's which I know you later worked with but like you know like oh the rumor is Burger Kings got Western whatever coming out you know and then try to match them beat them all that kind of stuff.

Chef Mike Haracz 22:53

Um, I wouldn't say it's like necessarily beat those people to the punch you would know I mean it is so easy to understand when so this burger king is testing this item in 10 restaurants that's in the media people hear about it people talk about it McDonald's gets wind of it. Oh look what's going on the major things like chicken wars for instance, Chick fil A started taking share away in the chicken category. There is a finite number of people who order a chicken sandwich every day. So it's not like this is a made up number like you can do research and get data to understand here's chicken consumers and now Chick fil A is 40% of all purchases were five years ago it was 30% they are taking away share from everybody else how do we get it back? So it's not necessarily espionage but then scenarios like what I was in where I'm told to make the best new chicken sandwich All right here it is owner operators think that we should just make a Chick fil A knockoff sandwich Okay great. So somebody else on the team is making a Chick fil A to pickles in a foil pouch with butter looks like Chick fil A we put it in consumer tests and consumer panels and mine wins and they're like ah, let's let's do it again. Does it okay five times in a row my chicken sandwich wins and then higher ups are like owner operators want the Chick fil A version? Okay then why am I doing this? We shouldn't have even tested mine even though mine keeps winning and is better than all the ones and you don't want to go with it. I have the data supporting it. owner operators when they're influenced they want Chick fil A that'll make them happy cool. So then they launched that that type of item and it doesn't sell that great because who's going to leave Chick fil A to go to McDonald's you're not so I don't know why that decision was made but here we are. There's is currently in a foil pouch with two pickles and butter just like Chick fil

Jeff Dwoskin 24:54

A What was the difference of yours? Three pickles?

Chef Mike Haracz 24:57

No, I had a a pretty Sweet Honey Mustard kind of sauce. It was pretty standard chicken filet not so pickled leave and msg flavored like Chick Fil A's it was more pretty standard basic breading and batter but it just hits us right with a bun in the sauce. Not super mustardy like there was enough to make it kind of golden which golden arches. I mean, it just was perfect. And they didn't want to use it. So Okay, have fun with that

Jeff Dwoskin 25:25

when you were saying it I was feeling frustrated for you because it's like logic would prevail if logic was part of this process that they're not going to come to McDonald's for the same thing you have to one up at the only reason they've come to McDonald's for the exact Chick fil A is if for some reason those people were obsessed with McDonald's diet coke or something right. So now they can get both things that they want. But, but otherwise, it'd be like, who's gonna switch? Do you know? The magic of Chick fil A? I mean, I've never walked by Chick fil A at the mall, or even an outdoor one where it's not lined up like the most popular ride at Disney World. I like always. This is

Chef Mike Haracz 26:06

how I would explain Do you have any friends who are obsessed with Apple? I will only buy Apple products Apple phone Apple laptop when the new one comes out? I'm gonna get the new one. Yes, I may be me. Is there anything I can say to switch? Oh, you should go to Samsung or you should get what is there anything I could possibly say to change your mind. Now Chick fil A consumers love Chick fil A what they stand for their service model. One of the things about Chick Fil A's it's a very limited menu compared to McDonald's. So chicken sandwiches, they can make the same thing over and over again really quickly and move that line pretty quickly. In those same focus groups that I was talking to you for about chicken you can choose heavy Chick fil A consumers to come into your panel to try the things my chicken sandwich would get voted better than the Chick fil A sandwiches that we would bring in from Chick fil A to like, Oh, this one's good. But I know this one's Chick fil A cool. So the moderator would then start asking Chick fil A fanatics. So you really love this chicken sandwich. Would you go to McDonald's to eat the sandwich? No, I'm a Chick fil A consumer. So you like the new one better? That's not from Chick fil A, but it will not get you to go to a new restaurant to eat the new thing. Oh, no, I'm a Chick fil A consumer cool. There you go. They are obsessed. They are set in their ways. Just like I love Kirkland brand anything from Costco because I'm a suburban dad, I'll go to Costco and buy whatever, even illogically have a love for their toilet paper for no other reason other than its Kirkland brand, it's Costco, it's gotta be good. That mentality dictates so much purchasing intent of consumers, like everybody buys stuff for no logical reason, every day all the time, they don't buy food, just because it's the best tasting, it might be convenient, it might be quick, you're getting it because somebody else is going there. And you want some there are so many other reasons people buy food, other than it's the best tasting, that all of that is factored into a lot of the r&d work that we do, which is sometimes I need to take the chef head off and be like, hey, they just want the cheapest macaroni salad at Walmart, if we can make the cheapest $1 for 50 pound pail of macaroni salad, they're gonna buy it. All right, I'm gonna make that one then because that's what consumers want. And again, that's a hard thing for like a traditional restaurant chef to transition to r&d world is like it's not about you doesn't matter what my personal preferences are. I'm making it for a customer or a consumer get into their world and understand why they're buying it.

Jeff Dwoskin 28:40

That makes sense in it. But it doesn't make sense is that if if McDonald's knew that, why they would even bother with a chicken sandwich. That

Chef Mike Haracz 28:48

is because in that scenario, owner operator influence really took over. So when you develop anything for McDonald's, not only is the average customer, let's say by customer as an r&d, Chef, I'm cooking for the people that go in there. Anytime anything new comes out, you have to present a business case to the different regions and the influential owner operator groups. So you would test it in one restaurant, then 10, then 50. And there's data that you gather How well did it sell? How did people like it, all that gets put into this big presentation, and I'm technically selling more to owner operators than to customers, the owner operators are my customer and I need to pitch these new items to them for them to accept it and go in their restaurant. Just like the MC rib isn't always the nationally launched item because that group doesn't want it maybe they didn't like the business case. There was other things going on. So those owner operators, some of which may own 20 or 30 restaurants in their region are now voting on national. This is not you need my 20 restaurants in Georgia. My consumer knows chicken It should be this everywhere. Well, in Maine, in Cali, in Washington, they eat a little different than those from Georgia. So sometimes those owner operators who get their influence are not necessarily making the best choice for a national launch item. It's a little more for their consumer, their understanding of McDonald's. And that's where the battles the corporate jargon battles ensue between corporate and owner operator folk.

Jeff Dwoskin 30:27

So you've mentioned the MC rib a couple of times, so I have to ask I'm totally on board with how you describe the beef. What what is an MC

Chef Mike Haracz 30:35

MC rib is pork I mean it is. Anytime you have a chopped and formed thing like a McNuggets or a meatball or something different than just a burger patty 100% Brown chicken breast, if you were to cook it and eat it, it's dry, it doesn't taste very good. So then you add salt for some flavor. Maybe add a little marinade for moisture, but you don't want the moisture to leach out. So maybe you add bread crumbs, maybe you need to add some ag or protein to bind the structure together and now it is not 100% Chicken it's chopped and formed something or other just like the McRib. It's basically a big old pork meatball, brown, large chunks of pork are browned up mixed with other ingredients, your seasonings, your preservatives, your you can call it filler, but some of it is for texture 100% Just pork cooked however they cooked it brown, whatever, it's okay, but you want it to be juicy succulent. Do you want all these flavors in it. So other things are added to it. But there is no strange things in there. That should scare anybody. And if anybody does have questions, the best thing you can do for information is go to these restaurants websites where they post the ingredient statement. And it has to tell you literally everything that's in there, if you think they're lying, or it's not in there, lawyer up and get evidence because you could be in you could make all the money if you find that out. That's the reason why they need to make these ingredients statements and show you exactly what's in it for all those legal reasons and to not hide anything. So always go on the website to look at what's in it and that will 100% tell you what's in the food you're eating.

Jeff Dwoskin 32:18

So if I went to the website and looked up filet o fish, what would I see? You'd

Chef Mike Haracz 32:21

see that the fish portion is just wild caught Alaskan Pollock and water and then it would have a next thing where parentheses like breading or batter and then it would list out bread crumb slash wheats with you know, if you're enriched using enriched flour, then there's chemical names of things, whether it's vitamins, minerals, whatever it is there's you know, natural flavors as whatever but also the way that they're written can sometimes tell you some information to a lot of people might write the fish portion is its own thing. Here's the breading and batter, but if you want people not to steal your info, you can mix all of that together in one ingredient statement, but they are always written in order of predominance in the finger eating so a fish is labeled first on the ingredient statement 51% or the majority of the thing you're eating is fish. And then the next ingredient and then the next ingredient. So

Jeff Dwoskin 33:18

filet o fish is a fried fish though, right? It's a fried fish. Yes. Okay. Yep, no and pollack. That's like cod basically, kind of similar.

Chef Mike Haracz 33:26

For the most part, it is a light in flavor fish. Again, it's caught wild in Alaska. And it's actually processed on the ships so the fish is basically caught the scale processed and frozen into these big old blocks. So think of a big thin with layers and layers and layers of fish almost like lasagna of fish stacked and packed as much as you can get because you know, the fish is only you know, so big, they're not huge or anything like that. So it is whole muscle, it's not ground, but those big frozen blocks are then cut into the squares you know in love. So it might be two to two and a half fish worth of fillet in each one of your pieces. That frozen square is breaded and battered and part fried and then those are shipped to the restaurant to be fried and cooked fully before you enjoy it slathered in tartar sauce.

Jeff Dwoskin 34:21

And I looked it up Pollock is actually a very healthy fish when not fried. It's actually Of course, yeah, I'm saying they compared to like a white fish or something that's even more. Well, let me get to so you were McDonald's from 2015 to 2019. The founder came out in 2016. Michael Keaton movie The founder about Ray Kroc and the origins of McDonald's did that boost Did you see like a difference in sales and people coming in during that time? Not a

Chef Mike Haracz 34:49

whole lot. It probably increased social chatter, but a lot of people who are anti McDonald's looked at the movie and was like see a lot of people who are pro McDonald's looked at the movie and was like See, it became somewhat political. Some people think he's a mean jerk for what he did. Some people think he's a shrewd businessman, McDonald's took the position because McDonald's does not own the Ray Kroc estate. I think like the Red Cross, or like there's some interesting owner of Ray Kroc Estates is the one that the movie people made a deal with. So McDonald's corporate had nothing to do with the movie at all whatsoever. And we were told not to make any public comments about it at all whatsoever.

Jeff Dwoskin 35:35

It was interesting because the people you know, when you work at a one of these fast food, or QSR type restaurants, they've come from every other QSR there's usually a mix. So there were people that I worked with, I worked at McDonald's, and they were like, Oh, it was chi, they had opposite views. They're like, it wasn't mean enough. It was like it was too mean. You know, they could seem like there's just like we were talking about Apple earlier. There's how you feel about Ray Kroc and how you don't feel about Ray Kroc. Yeah, and the origins of McDonald's. I won't

Chef Mike Haracz 36:03

go into particulars. There were some portions of the movie, which I've been told are very much exaggerated. There are other things that should have been in the movie that could be incredibly controversial about McDonald's and how it was run and all that that some of the some suppliers of McDonald's have supplied McDonald's for years and individual employees of those suppliers. 40 year veteran, 50 year veteran of selling things to McDonald's, I knew Ray Kroc, I worked next to him, I hand shook deal with him. So there are people who I know we're in that world. And they would tell me like there's a bunch of other stuff that could have been in that movie that little little dicey. And I have acquired a couple of them, but I cannot verify they're necessarily true or not. But yeah, very interesting. All right.

Jeff Dwoskin 36:52

All right. Well, let me let me ask you the question that probably everyone wants to know about McDonald's is why are the ice cream machines always broken?

Chef Mike Haracz 36:58

So the debates is that the equipment itself so one thing about McDonald's is no matter what piece of equipment they get, at least with my experience in r&d, they want to customize for McDonald's R spec. So for instance, there was the glazed buttermilk crispy tenders that I helped launch. And I was like, we can just get the crew to put it in a bowl and shake it to glaze these tenders, just buy a bowl, we need to develop our own bowl with a lid so that way, sauce doesn't come out. And we need to come up with a specific shaking procedure that we will record so everyone could do it. And this bowl now cost hundreds of dollars, as opposed to the $3. One you could get on store shelves, this tool is to break the yolk, when we make our egg McMuffins you could stab it with a fork that you have sitting there or anything, just stab it and break that now we need a tool made. Okay, so the ice cream machine itself was probably engineered for McDonald's specifications, making it incredibly difficult to break down and put together for the big cleaning cycles that it needs to and the cleaning cycle itself might understand takes a long time, you're probably not going to want to do that cleaning cycle middle of the night, because you don't have enough people to do the cleaning and run the restaurant. So you're probably going to have to do it when you have most of the employees, which is when more people want to order it. So not as many people get to have it during peak times because that's when they are cleaning it. I also understand that an owner operator can simply just say, that's taking too much time. I could sell more burgers and make more money. It's broken, it's down, we can just order something else because a lot of times folks are already there. Just get something. What do you want gets instead? All right, get that instead. I'm already here. So there's a lot of trade in that scenario. So the myth is that it's always broken. I don't know if that's true, but certainly a lot of people have some feelings about that. That

Jeff Dwoskin 38:57

is what you would be led to believe on Twitter. Absolutely. All right. One question or Yeah, is is the ketchup that you put on a hamburger different than French fried ketchup?

Chef Mike Haracz 39:11

Well, if you go on the McDonald's website, and I have no insider knowledge i This is based you have to do your own research. You go on the McDonald's website look under their burgers because that would be the ketchup that is applied grill side and look at that ingredient statement and then look at the ingredients statement of Heinz ketchup or the ketchup packets that are given away. That's a high design that from what I have looked up, it is almost identical. Heinz calls out I think onion powder and spices in their ingredient statement where McDonald's does not. So I don't know if that means that Heinz Ketchup is more flavorful and has more things in it. I don't know if Heinz has a special recipe just for McDonald's. Based on that they seem to be almost similar. McDonald's may have a version that's a little cheaper because they took onion powder and spice out and just add natural flavors instead. Not 100% Sure, but based on the ingredient statements on the website, they're almost identical.

Jeff Dwoskin 40:17

Sorry to interrupt, had to take a quick break. Do you want to do a quick nods my friend Mike Green, who inspired this question and the little mispronunciation rhyming joke earlier? It was an homage to him. All right. And we're back with more ketchup talk. Let me ask the question a different way. So you have the french fries packets, that's what you get for the packets. If the ketchup ran out, like the little pump catch ups or the packets? Could you give someone the ketchup that you put on a hamburger or to use for French fries?

Chef Mike Haracz 40:47

That is a great quote. I'm not sure if they're alive. Think you can request like, let me get the grill side ketchup from the restaurant like we ran out, give me a site and they can put it in a cup. I don't think they're discouraged from giving you that. But that is a good question of it being is it so different that that can cause any issue from I'm not 100%? sure on that.

Jeff Dwoskin 41:08

All right, I stumped the chef. Okay, we'll keep going.

Chef Mike Haracz 41:11

I would assume the ketchup the dispenser, maybe the ingredient statements on a ketchup dispenser. Because if you go on the website and look up just ketchup under the sauces category, I'm not sure if I'll have to check if that is different than the ketchup listed on the burgers. So that's one way to maybe see if there is a difference because a side of ketchup and ketchup that comes on the burger for nutritional information that might be different. I'm not sure. They're very interesting. Alright, so

Jeff Dwoskin 41:41

why the rumor is if I use a McDonald's straw at a Burger King and drink from the McDonald's straw, it'll taste like a McDonald's found drink,

Chef Mike Haracz 41:49

I think true, but flavor and all those things are up to the individual. So the myth is that McDonald's gets its own syrup, and it's transported in metal containers and the filtration system at McDonald's are better than anyone else. And the syrup lines in the water lines are chilled in a way that make it hit different but the straw is also a little wider than your average other person's other competitors straw. So if you kind of want that experience, I think you take the McDonald's straw, bring it over to the competitor if they've got Diet Coke or whatever, Sprite, whatever it might be, try using a McDonald's straw in that drink. Because you are just getting more beverage in your mouth quicker than using other straws. Maybe that's a little different. Maybe you're going to taste the McDonald's flavor that way greatest

Jeff Dwoskin 42:41

LTO that flopped and McDonald's could be under your reign or another time I really can't believe it flat not like the chicken where you're like it's gonna flop because of the data.

Chef Mike Haracz 42:52

greatest thing that ever flopped. At my time, I don't think anything really flopped. You can go urban legend. I mean, everybody wants to make DLT back. So the MC DLT. I wouldn't say that it failed. I think it sold well in the beginning and then dropped off. It was in a styrofoam container where you keep hot food on one side cold food on the other which makes sense. That could be cool. The issue is that it is not environmentally friendly. That is a lot of packaging. And doing it this day and age if McDonald's announced its bringing Styrofoam back for the MC DLT there would be all the sides would complain about something. And we know that being true because while I was there, McDonald's got rid of the Styrofoam cups that were only in the South for a while for sweet tea sales specifically. And when McDonald's removed Styrofoam cups from sweet tea, they lost $5 million in sales of sweet tea sales. So a lot of people left to go to competitors who still sell a Styrofoam cup for their drink because you can't have your drink sweating in hot summer days. Like that's horrible. And we're not willing to trade Styrofoam for anything else. So people just stopped going to McDonald's purely for the cup. So yeah, MC DLT probably would not come back in that capacity. For those reasons.

Jeff Dwoskin 44:18

The flip side of that same question, what's the thing you can't believe people love and even still eat to this day. All right.

Chef Mike Haracz 44:23

So let's talk about the MC rib and this is not really the mid snap the MC rib so I came out with buttermilk crispy tenders. So the next one was supposed to be a glazed buttermilk crispy tender, which launched and did very well. I'm a certified barbecue judge and do barbecue competitions on the side too. So I was like alright, we're gonna make competition worthy barbecue sauce for these tenders and put it in a focus group and see what people say about it like onions caramelizing it's kind of like blues hog style, which is a very popular competition style barbecue. So A lot of people use soy but I made it my own cooked it down you know like a chef would make amazing barbecue sauce. Put it on the tender start serving it to heavy McDonald's users first person takes a bite. What is this matter is like, Oh, this is a board of a upscale competition style by risotto was now we just want the MC rib sauce. Why can't you just put the MC rib barbecue sauce on this? And then the group think the whole rooms? Yeah, you know what we'd like to Maghrib Why don't you just put them in? No one was thinking that until a person says it and then groupthink happens and everyone's now Yeah, we should have totally done so and test after test people like which is about the MC rip barbecue sauce. Okay, it's not a great barbecue sauce in comparison. Yes, it's unique. Everybody likes it. But I was given you the bomb fire barbecue sauce, but the average consumer just wanted MC rib barbecue sauce. So okay, Chef Mike loses this battle. Some people don't deserve your Chef Mike. You know, that's right. How dare they have their own tastes and opinions on things? Oh. That was sarcastic out there. Everybody. Just FYI.

Jeff Dwoskin 46:06

FYI. So alright, so as you spoke of the your tiktoks going? Press, were they one of them was why 1030 is the worst time to eat at McDonald's. Yeah.

Chef Mike Haracz 46:17

So it is very difficult, especially for the crew at that time because a lot of people want breakfast before 1030. For breakfast ends. There's people who are waiting for lunch. They want their lunch early. It's it's 1027 I want my burger. Well, we can't serve you. It's still breakfast. Okay, all of the equipment switches over from breakfast service to lunch service. Some of that equipment is the same equipment. So a temperature change, maybe a cook time change, the holding capacity of the universal holding cabinets are configured in a way to hold lunch instead of breakfast. So this is switch over time. So all the employees are actively cooking a bunch of stuff to fill this cabinet while trying to run out of the old stuff. And everybody wants all different kinds of orders. Can I get breakfast and lunch mashed together in a ball? Can you just serve me so all of these things are going on. And I think that's the longest other than maybe the middle of the night when the restaurant is not staffed appropriately, it's the longer wait to get your food items. So that's why it's usually not the best time to go because you are waiting the longest to get your food that's not necessarily meaning the food isn't the freshest, maybe getting breakfast at 1025 is probably not the best a little earlier would be better. But getting lunch at 1035 is probably a good time other than you're gonna have to wait a long time and

Jeff Dwoskin 47:44

specifically at 1035 You can get a burger with an egg on it from what I understand

Chef Mike Haracz 47:50

it's possible if the crew is nice you know the manager you have a smile on your face you ask politely but if you come in demanding things and that is not on the menu again you might not get it the stars have to align for that to happen. But

Jeff Dwoskin 48:06

it is possible why are McDonald's french fries the greatest French fries in the world?

Chef Mike Haracz 48:10

I would say the fries at McDonald's are V gold standard in the industry so that means it's second to none. There's no one can compete. They are so efficient. They take so much care in the restaurants they serve so much that it's you're always cooking french fries always serving it nonstop and it hits just that perfect bliss point have the right amount of seasoning the right amount of crunch the type of potato they use. I will say they don't age the best so cold McDonald's fries are not the best. There are other ones that are better cold which is a weird thing to say. But if you get those hot and fresh McDonald's fries they are due to all the care taken in making them yeah, they are certainly pretty darn tasty.

Jeff Dwoskin 48:55

It's quite a balance between something that's great hot something that can't like Chinese food. I love cold Chinese food like the next day. Some things are great cold it's rare they they're both pizza made right?

Chef Mike Haracz 49:06

Yeah, I love mixing different leftover Chinese food to make a new Chinese food like here's my beef lo mein sweet and sour chicken potsticker egg roll Chow fun mix together with all those sauces combined. And now it's a new thing. Oh, it's so good. I

Jeff Dwoskin 49:25

want to party with you. Alright, what's one secret hack that we can leave secret menu items something we can leave everyone with as we bring our conversation to a close this

Chef Mike Haracz 49:36

one's getting a little traction with the old Tickity talk of the don't order a Big Mac because it is overpriced. Get a McDouble no ketchup and mustard. Add Big Mac sauce and lettuce is a cheaper version of a better Big Mac. You don't want the middle bun. Whoever says they liked the middle bun. They're lying to you. But you can get a Big Mac experience much cheaper. More than ordering the Big Mac by getting in the double like a Mac. I like it. And the best AOV sorry to interrupt you but the best egg in my opinion is the round eggs that you get on the Egg McMuffin because those are the only ones that are freshly cracked in the restaurant and cooked the scrambled eggs that come on a big breakfast is from a box. It's like a liquid egg product. And then there was the square folded egg that you get on like the bagels. Those come in precooked, frozen, not nearly as good so that fresh cracked round egg, I think is a much better breakfast option than the others. I

Jeff Dwoskin 50:34

love it. I remember when I was a kid, we would have like an elementary school that would be McDonald's day. I grew up calling the hamburger a small hamburger for some reason. And literally for my entire life. If I would go I go and I'll have two small hamburgers. No like hamburgers, like yes, two small hamburgers and then just mustard and pickles only please or maybe onions and then they'd have to make it fresh. Yes,

Chef Mike Haracz 51:00

that is also the trick that if you ask for unseasoned things so fries without salt or a burger patty without seasoning on it, they will have to make that fresh for you. So that is another good hack of getting those things fresh. Wow.

Jeff Dwoskin 51:15

I guess I gotta go eat. I'm starving. Now. This was so um, but I'm gonna I'm just gonna run through McDonald's. I'm gonna go to Maine and get me. MC lobster. There

Chef Mike Haracz 51:25

you go. There's Oh, there is also the other one is a old bay season filet of fish. So I think the mayonnaise actually has Old Bay seasoning or the tartar sauce is like an old bay season tartar sauce that is on the east coast sometimes might want to look that up too.

Jeff Dwoskin 51:42

Well. Oh, were you responsible for Assess one sauce from Rick and Morty or bringing it back? Or both? Bringing

Chef Mike Haracz 51:48

it back bringing it back? Yeah. 98 I was still in I was a freshman in high school. So did not live in corporate world. But when Rick and Morty season three came out, I was the one due to that'll be a whole we'll have to do this again. Because I could do the whole time talking about the sesh one sauce story, but yes. All

Jeff Dwoskin 52:06

right. Well do that then, because you're a joy to talk to Chef Mike. I appreciate it. I'm glad we finally got to meet in real in real life.

Chef Mike Haracz 52:15

Yeah, just Hashtag Wars. We're finally doing something a little different. I love it.

Jeff Dwoskin 52:20

Thank you so much for hanging out with me. I really appreciate it. Of course. My pleasure. All right. How amazing was Chef Mike Harris definitely follow him on Tik Tok on Twitter. He's a master at tick tock. I gotta tell you lots of great videos. I've known Chef Mike for a while on Twitter, like we talked about we hashtag Ward together. So it was great to finally actually have a conversation with them and learn all the secrets of McDonald's. Hope you enjoyed our deep dive. Can't believe the interviews over another huge thank you to Chef Mike. And another huge thank you to all of you coming back week after week. It means the world to me. Oh, and I do want to say I tried that. Make double trek with the Big Mac sauce. Definitely delicious. And I'll see you next time.

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