#202 John Wesley Shipp Drops By In A Flash

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Jeff Dwoskin 0:29

All right, Suzanne, thank you so much for that amazing introduction. You get the show going each and every week and this week was no exception. Welcome everybody to Episode 202 of classic conversations and don't blink because this one's a classic one but it's gonna go buy in a flash flash See what I did there. My guest today is John Wesley Shipp. That's right the OG Barry Allen from the flash from the 90s. Now flashing it up on the CW is the flash you loved him in Dawson's Creek two time Daytime Emmy Award winner John Wesley Shipp is coming up in just a few seconds De Anza and flash but first, I hope you all celebrated episode 200 with me and comedy icon Dave Thomas of SCTV fame that was amazing. Episode 198 with rose up do amazing so much. amazingness. Let's add to the amazing this right now, shall we? Yes, we shall. I'm excited to share my conversation with John Wesley Shipp with you enjoy. All right, my next guest you've loved in the flash, Dawson's Creek, NYPD Blue As the World Turns Santa Barbara and a million other places. Welcome to the show. John Wesley Shipp. Hey, what's up?

John Wesley Shipp 1:49

How are you?

Jeff Dwoskin 1:50

I am good. I am good. Oh, nice to see you.

John Wesley Shipp 1:54

Thanks. Good to be here.

Jeff Dwoskin 1:56

I wanted to kick off my question. I was trying to think what's the first thing I should ask? The first thing I was wondering about is if you get PTSD every time you hear the song drift away?

John Wesley Shipp 2:05

Oh, you mean the song I was singing when I was during my fatal accident? Yes. You know, people, people have so many opinions about that. I actually, they told they gave me a choice of two songs. They said it could be fire and rain, or it could be drift away. And and the whole setup. You know, people had a lot of various reactions about it, including the riders, one of the riders said he thought it was a terrible way to get rid of character. But I actually appreciated it. You know, it was time for the kids to go to school, they were leaving the creek. And they said, you know, Dawson and I had been fighting about what he should do about his future that I have to go get milk because he drank all the baby's milk. And so I go and it ends up that I had this conversation with the guy at the convenience store who of course, is a family friend, because it's a very small town, and we work everything out. And so Mitch, after two episodes of conflict has resolved everything in his mind. And he's in a really great mood, sort of a very zen boat, you know, and it means sort of, everything's cool. He's singing along to the radio is eating an ice cream cone, and bam. So I actually the last two episodes that I did on Dawson's Creek, were two of my favorite and that they made me feel like the previous four years had been about something that impacted the characters lives so dramatically that it was like, oh, Mitch really did have an impact really did make a difference. And it served the show because by fifth season, they didn't have any story. And so they knew that I didn't want to stay and as the kids went college be relegated to basically a background play or stand holding the baby and wave at college day. You know, parents stay at college, and this gave me really, really respectful send off some really good stuff to play. So no, I have no PTSD about that about that at all. In fact, I get emotional watching it and I think Oh, bitch. Oh God, they really did love Mitch. Oh, yeah,

Jeff Dwoskin 4:11

I just met him in a joking away. If, like you're somewhere and it comes on, you're like, oh, just because tied to that scene. It was. I could have asked the same thing about eating a big vanilla ice cream.

John Wesley Shipp 4:22

Well, you know, people at conventions they bring me I have an ice cream cone again, I should have. I should have worn it. Some fan brought me an ice cream cone pin. They'll bring me drawings of ice cream cones at conventions and I'll go that's dark. It's funny, but that's you know, everybody gets a big kick out of riffing on that also because John, me, my nemesis is ice cream. It was something of a set joke. I mean, if there was ever any ice cream on craft service, John, there's ice cream. So the fact that I would meet my demise eating ice cream was appropriate on a number of levels.

Jeff Dwoskin 4:58

We've all done what you did in there. Seeing you drop something you think you can lean over while you're driving? Yeah, I was like I was I was watching. I was like, Oh, I've done that. Not with ice cream. Yeah.

John Wesley Shipp 5:08

Well, we all take, you know, we have our fries. And we have our this. And it's amazing how many, nothing at all serious, but how many accidents happen because you're eating while you're driving, because invariably, you'll drop a french fry or something. And yeah, it is perilous to pull over, finish your ice cream cone and then proceed.

Jeff Dwoskin 5:30

At the end, you look up, that's the boom

John Wesley Shipp 5:33

ended the episode the way they did, it was so shocking, that there was only one conclusion really to draw, and that it was confirmed the following week, then the episode in which I appear basically all six feet under as a ghost, you know, as a memory of tying up all of my relationships with the kids with my wife with my son, which was a very meaningful episode for me too, because it gave me a real full circle moment. And that very last moment of that episode, the long goodbye, where I'm with the camera, and I just for some reason I stopped and I look and I'm going this way as camera is swirling that way. And you're seeing the creek and you're seeing how much Mitch loves his life. And then it goes all the way 360 And then I go into the house camera zooms up to the sky. I just thought rarely has a character been given a more respectful and affectionate sendoff. It really felt like a confirmation that it was it was the right thing to do.

Jeff Dwoskin 6:38

It was an important character. And then the death actually catapulted everything that kind of came after it and and dealing with it. That's right, you just you know, they

John Wesley Shipp 6:46

shut they were shooting fifth season, they let all the adults contracts expire, because the kids were going to college. And instead of 19 or 21 episodes out of the adults, they only wanted six, I didn't really want to hang around to do six episodes, there had been such a positive experience up to that point. So I went back to LA without closing my contract. They started shooting the first episode and fifth season, I figured I was done. I was fine. And then I got a call from Paul stoop and executive producer saying that if I come to LA, Will you have coffee with me? And then I said, Sure, absolutely. And then he said, The studio is shut us down. Because we don't have any story. When I'm out here to ask you is if we give you the money you're asking, and we promise you two really good scripts, will you come back and kill the character? Of course, you know, at first it was like, oh, but they were as good as they were. They gave me beautiful send off and I don't regret a minute of it

Jeff Dwoskin 7:43

was good that they gave you that that courtesy? Yeah, you didn't see that kind of stuff on 90210. Yeah.

John Wesley Shipp 7:50

But you know, it also worked for them, because suddenly they had story. It was Dawson's fault, quote, unquote, that I had to go off for milk. So he's the reason I was on the road because he drank all the babies. He goes into therapy, Gail, suddenly, as a widow, I had relationships with all of the kids pay in a way pays the surrogate father of it, it was a it reverberated not only throughout Capeside but throughout the nobody saw it coming, nobody and it gave them story, as you yourself said it sort of was a motivating event for everything that came after. So everybody one

Jeff Dwoskin 8:27

so as wonderful and beloved, as you were on Dawson's Creek I read you weren't in the actual pilot or the pilot presentation or

John Wesley Shipp 8:35

right No, I was off in Moab Utah filming the last treasure of Dos Santos with David Carradine Lee Majors, Kathie Lee Crosby and Michelle green. That was very interesting five weeks in Moab, you know, with our one stoplight and in our little hotel all there together doing this movie, which I don't think anyone will ever see, I think they've said here. And so then then they decided to go in a different direction after the pilot presentation. And so they sent it to me to look at and I knew that immediately that it was something unique that there had not been a show written for young people like this before, where they were having all of these complex, conflicting emotions, and had a vocabulary to express these emotions. In other words, Gavin Williamson was writing up to a younger audience instead of down to a younger audience. You know, and I thought, Look, this certainly looks it sounds different. The creek the water is a character in the show. And I thought yet everybody had the sense at the beginning. It was unique. And so I went in and I read and I auditioned and I was shooting Soldier of Fortune and Brad Johnson had broken my nose. We had this like six minute knife fight, and he threw the punch the opposite way and I and I went right into it and flattened mind so I had I look like Rocky Graziano going into the network people but we made a joke about that and everyone relaxed and and then I was on a plane like three days later and I reshot the scenes from the first episode they were already shooting the second episode and then I picked up with the second episode and then was there for left of what was the fourth fifth up fourth episode of the fifth season I think was when I left.

Jeff Dwoskin 10:30

Alright, so I want to talk flash photographers but before flash let's talk before flash. So you are a two time a Daytime Emmy Award winner back to back and the interesting thing about that is back to back on two different soaps. I wanted to ask you if there's any soap operas you want to be on because it seems like you've been on every single one I'm not a complete aficionado, but it's been so

John Wesley Shipp 10:55

I've been on everyone that's no longer on the air. I don't take personal responsibility for that. But But it's so happens it's been interesting because after the contract part, I was on guiding light for four years playing a really good guy. And since then, I've been able to come back and do three or four month gigs which means and I've gotten to play a bad guy brilliant sadistic woman abusing lawyer and all my children another woman who abused her on Santa Barbara I started off as a really good guy obviously Julianne Moore on As the World Turns and then I went all the way out to stark raving mad and was killed by was stabbed in the back during a rape attempt, you know, so I got to play everything that I'd had been playing and then all the way out to crazy and I got to break time really early in my career. You know, that was the good thing about that. And I did a limited run on in 2010 as the abusive father, Ford father Eddie Ford. So yeah, I've been able to jump back and forth between really good dads really bad dad, I played the worst dad ever on Teen Wolf in like, whatever that was 2,011/2005 2012 and the reviews said fans of Dawson's Creek and the flash get ready. This character leaves no room but for you to hate him. And it was psycho dad truly was Daniel Sharman played my son name was Mr. Lahey. And that was very dark. But it has allowed me to play that drug addicted cop on NYPD Blue. I say my career has been comprised of superheroes and psychopaths. And so it's kept it interesting

Jeff Dwoskin 12:41

when they are two sides of the same coin. Right. So it's kind

John Wesley Shipp 12:45

of Yeah, one gets dangerously close to the other. Right.

Jeff Dwoskin 12:49

Sorry to interrupt, but we have to take a quick break. I do want to thank everyone for their support of the sponsors. When you support the sponsors. You're supporting us here at Classic conversations. And that's how we keep the lights on. And now back to my stupendous conversation with John Wesley Shipp, and we're back. So do you love the fact I imagine you do that when people show up to John Wesley Shipp role when they show up to a John Wesley Shipp role? They don't know what they're gonna get. Right and I mean that in a good way. Like

John Wesley Shipp 13:20

yes, yes, yes. And that happened and I have to thank the late Douglas Moreland, multiple Emmy award winning are the last of the great daytime head writers soap operas used to be ruled by a head writer figure, you know is like or executive routes or Gloria Monti in general hospital does Marlon was one of these very powerful multiple award winning writers who wrote My role on Guiding Light created Kelly Nelson and then knew there was more to me as an actor and wrote the part of Douglas Cummings on as I said, I got to well, it was interesting. my dressing room made on Guiding Light was Kevin Bacon, then my 10 month part and as the world turns my leading lady was Julianne Moore. My competition was Steven Weber. The great Julia pagano was my competent, close friend. And of course there was Catherine Hayes, who recently this year passed away. I mean, all these wonderful, wonderful actors that I got play really terrific writing and in the early 80s, it was the youth explosion on daytime. Well, I mean, in those days, we were getting 22 million viewers a week, we were getting primetime numbers. Of course, there were five channels, so we kind of had a guest same thing with the original Flash, I was surprised to go back and learn I had forgotten that our premiere of flash 1990 premiered in front of an audience of 22 point 5 million people and that's in spite of being in CBS his toughest time slot opposite Cosby and The Simpsons at their peak. So it was It was different in those days, you had to carry 25,000,020 5 million 30 million viewers in order to stay on the air. Now with 300 channels, you know, with all you know, you can have, you can keep the show on the air and you can have a hit with six or 7 million viewers, because now there are 300 channels, you know, they're happy to get between three and 6 million.

Jeff Dwoskin 15:22

I imagine there's also a longer tail because now if you're on Netflix, if you don't watch it the first week or like, you know, any of the Game of Thrones as they're happening, it's there, you can still back then flash 90 Unless I you know, remember to set up my VCR.

John Wesley Shipp 15:39

Well, that wasn't that wasn't a guarantee either, because they switched us to a 3930. And then they switched our night. And then we were preempted for the World Series. And then we were preempted for the first Gulf War. And then daddy Bush threw up on the Prime Minister to Japan. And of course, we had to cut away and see that and fans couldn't find the show if there had been DVRs in 1990 91. I think I'm pretty sure it would have gone another season and we'd all be dead because getting an hour of superhero television in 1990 91 was a different animal and trying to do it seriously. For real with at that time, state of the art, special effects, lots of live action, practical effects. We were blowing stuff up all over Los Angeles all night long every night. Every night for nine months, as Danny Bilson has said, if we wanted to blow up and semi of cars and shoot flames 35 feet in the air, we have to really do it. If I was going to do an eating scene that would go by like that I'd have to eat and eat and eat and there'd be a bucket beside me or if I was going to run either me or Dane Farwell, my wonderful stuntman, we'd have to run a run around a date under crank camera, they speed it up, and what would take you maybe seven to 12 minutes to film would go by in 20 seconds, if that much, you know, so it was a different animal trying to get superhero TV in 1990

Jeff Dwoskin 17:08

before I was introduced to flash 9090 in 1990. I love how now with the CW, everything's like Batman 89 Superman 78 They all they all

John Wesley Shipp 17:17

right, right, right. We all have our numbers attached to us.

Jeff Dwoskin 17:20

So I was obsessed with Batman 89 Michael Keaton Batman, Tim Burton, that whole evolution of the superhero, and the way Tim Burton told that story and how it diverged so greatly from the Adam West Burt Ward, you know, stick that they did with the original Batman, I loved it. I remember. I mean, I've embedded in my brain you in that flash 90 costume when they were introducing it because Flash 90 was in that vein, right? It was it was a full extension of that type of superhero storytelling and I was in it for 100% I loved it. loved, loved, loved it.

John Wesley Shipp 18:01

Yeah, Tim Burton's Batman and Danny Bilson and Paul tomatoes, Flash were both in development at Warner Brothers right around the same time around a new idea of how to present these stories for a more mainstream audience that they would not be spooked. In fact, I was very hesitant to even auditioned for it when I heard they were going to be doing they wanted me to audition for a superhero because I was used to seeing the joke, you know, the character is not taken seriously. And that's not really I had been on Broadway. Like you said I had my 2am I've been a question on Jeopardy. You know, who's the only actor to win two consecutive Emmys from two different daytime shows and I had just done never ending story to which we shot in Germany and Vancouver and I wasn't at all struggling to go into superhero television. I want to run around in pair of red tights and go Swish bang pow you know, even though as a kid, I'd love that but they assured me that's not what this was going to be it was gonna be most expensive show Warner Brothers had ever done around a darker way of telling these stories taking these characters seriously having a family dynamic that fed into why he initially did not want to use his powers until his brother was killed you know that there was an emotional underpinning to all the fun stuff that happened on screen and all the fun stuff that happened on screen really was somebody else's job. My job was to ground it in a character hopefully, you know, while there was humor It was mostly based in character in situation it wasn't sit on a whoopee cushion slip on a banana peel humor, you know, already made. And my job was to lay this guy as honestly as possible to provide an emotional underpinning for for this action adventure show with superhero powers. There was an experiment at that time where Which certainly now has paid off. You know, I mean, we were coming Tim Burton's Batman, which was the year before release the year before and us we started shooting in the spring of 1990. We did not know it was not a given, you know how it would be received. Now, 24 years later, the new shows come the audience is there, San Diego Comic Con is a huge event, over 100,000 people take over town, the audience is ready for it. But in 1990, it was like it was a new animal at looking back, I'm very proud to have been at the cutting edge of a new way of telling these stories for the screen.

Jeff Dwoskin 20:40

Right? The problem was superheroes back then were you and Batman 89. And Flash 90 stood apart, there was so many bad ones, there was so many people that just didn't get it right, you know, either before or after, especially once it got really big. And then they kept doing it. Now they've got all the tech where they can in the story writers and people take it much more seriously now across Marvel and DC. But I mean, there was periods of time where there was just so much garbage, so you really you stopped even taking a chance on it. And but the flash 90, like you said was just stellar in terms of how it approached everything. And again, any fan of Batman 89 That, you know, could have only helped right to just say, Oh, this is Oh, this is the direction this is where superheroes are going. And it was it was wonderful. Talk to me about working with Mark Hamill, that must have been fine.

John Wesley Shipp 21:32

Mark is I'm so fortunate to have crossed paths with Mark, you know, at that point in my career also, with my own self consciousness, being in a superhero suit, you know, should I have dialogue as I didn't want to be a mascot? How do I be taken seriously, how do I eat a and I felt in those early scenes that I shot, I'm really stiff in the suit. And in the first trickster episode, here comes Mark balls to the wall 100% committed to all of the madness and eccentricity of this character and not shrinking from it at all, playing it wide open 100% which I was able then to relax a little bit and get over myself, and certainly by the trial of the Trickster at the very end when he's mind controlling me and I have trickster boots in the flash suit, and I'm knocking over parking meters, and I'm his sidekick. And we're catching bullets and throwing him back at the police, which we would never be allowed to do today. Among other things, our version at times got dark, I would say and but you know, allowed me to relax a little bit and have a good time because you know, if Mark Hamill wasn't going to come in and be self conscious about it, then I need to get over my bad self and commit 100% I had no problem committing to Barry Allen, because Paul DeMaio and Danny Bilson script was so rich, I was so clear. I remember April Webster, the casting director when I was hesitant, she said, just read the script. And when I read about this family were with this unblessed son who worked in a crime lab when the dad respected the older brother, because real cops work the streets. And he kind of dismissed Barry Barry was the guy that went to the crime lab. So mom wouldn't be afraid that all of her men might not come home that night. You know what I mean? Right? And he was fine with it. He was fine with it. And then all the different things that happen and getting used to the powers not wanting them the beginning, wonderful Tim Thomas in that relationship of Brother, there were a lot of emotional levels for me to dig into them. That's what saved me particularly at the beginning. Because it was although there was humor, it was a character that I could honestly insert myself into that frame of mind, what would happen to an ordinary guy, if you suddenly get extraordinary abilities, particularly abilities that would make your your dad so proud, your dad who has discounted you, if you could tell him but you can't. I mean, all these things, what kind of effect would it have on a CSI and we were CSI before CSI was cool, if suddenly, would there be a temptation to push it to go too far? Would he be afraid that it would burn it he'd burned himself out those were all things that interested me on a psychological level and kept me engaged in a genre that I otherwise would not have found interesting to play. Let's see comic book fans already knew that comic book fans the guys who were made fun of I don't know that before they knew that the stories had residents nobody else knew what they know now Right? Right. Right beside comics had taken over the industry. You know, you can't turn on Television Without supernatural powers appearing at some point or another in an episode

Jeff Dwoskin 25:06

The meek shall inherit the earth. Here we go. No. Yes, right,

John Wesley Shipp 25:09

baby. That's right. I tell my own it says, Aren't you proud of yourselves?

Jeff Dwoskin 25:13

Absolutely. So I you know, I think that's why everyone has such great memories of the show. It was well written, it was for the time for 9090 Amazing, just like the Hulk was amazing. Or it's time you know, if you watched him transform to the Hulk now you have to think alright, this was back then this is really good for that. And at the time, great. But Flash 90 Awesome. It just and it was critically acclaimed at the time, too. I mean, you didn't it wasn't like, Oh, my God,

John Wesley Shipp 25:41

no, we did that. That's one thing that was just picked up in the, in the genre press because I had I had put a link to someone had said that on 32 years ago today such and such an episode aired. And I went back and got the Washington Post, The Kansas City Star, the Louisville courier Journal, the New York Times that and the reviews were over the moon. And you know, my my comment was, you know, my parting gift to Greg Gustin, will be 25 years from now when he wants to sort of remember the effect that his show had don't read the reviews. 25 years from now go back and read the reviews that were written up at the time, which in 1990, we're talking about eye popping effects 10 on the Zawawi scale I didn't get that was the Washington Post state of the art effects for the time, sometimes I will read a review written by someone that seems like unlike you weren't even alive. When this was on, you know, and they'll say something about, they'll make some comment that gives them away. And I'll say you have no idea, the context that the show came into your judging a 9090 91 show in 2022. And you don't understand the historical context. We did a 25th anniversary at a theater in Los Angeles with Mark Hamill and the production team, the special effects team from the new show from the old show, and they we had a q&a after and they were special effects teams were saying that we pioneered certain effects that they then took to the next level on the CW right?

Jeff Dwoskin 27:23

You pretended to run super fast so that they could run or whatever.

John Wesley Shipp 27:28

Well, it was amazing. I have to say it was amazing. David Nutter Emmy award winning director for Game of Thrones and others, he directed our pilot CW pilot, after I shot that first prison scene, he called everybody around the crew and everybody and he said, I just want to say that none of us would be here today if this man hadn't proven 24 years ago that this kind of show could be done and could be taken seriously on television. Of course, I that made me very emotional. And I quickly excuse myself, I did a I did a flash flash. Right. I'll take you Thank you. Boom, you know, because it was very moving for me to hear that.

Jeff Dwoskin 28:07

No, it is it is. I mean, it's it's amazing how respectful of the new CW Flash is of where it came from. Sorry to interrupt. Oh, we have to take a quick break. John Wesley Shipp needed a second to compose himself. I told him not to go get an ice cream. i Good. All right. And we're back.

John Wesley Shipp 28:27

Well, I didn't realize that our executive producers Andrew Kreisberg, Greg Berlanti, who was one of my head writers on Dawson's Creek, I never knew Flash was his favorite character. The whole time. I've worked with him on Dawson's Creek, I mean, never said anything about Geoff Johns and David Nutter you know, David and I, we were getting ready to film very raw scene where Barry's being taken away, the mother has just been killed. Police are taking me away. They think I've killed Mother, you know, right before we go to them dragging me out of the house, he comes up to me says you were my hero growing up, okay, five, four, go action. And I'm like, now, I think he's a very smart director. And that's exactly where Henry should have been thrown off. And so he totally got me into the emotional place that I needed to be for that arrest scene. But it was not right. I am incredibly moved by kindness. Yesterday at the gym, in New York City, this young man came up and said, ball, the flashes, you're my favorite flash, and my girlfriend has your lashes t shirt. And we just think that you know, and I'm there thinking after he left, you said I don't want to bother you, bothering me. Whenever I have those interactions. I think how incredibly kind it is. He didn't have to take the time out of his workout and the risk to come over and tell me that and you know, people always apologize if they will. I don't want to bother you. But for me, that's an act of great kindness and appreciation for someone to take time out of their life. lives. If it's a couple of minutes, our lives are made up of minutes to come over and express appreciation for a piece of work that I've done. Of course, I'm grateful to receive that, you know, in the spirit in which it's presented,

Jeff Dwoskin 30:14

it's great to hear, and especially when just to hear nuggets of how you changed or impacted somebody's life, it's a wonderful thing. Those are the types of messages we need to share for people who were superheroes or not just if someone it's always good

John Wesley Shipp 30:29

or not a teacher. That's what I say. Also, in my q&a, he's getting ready to go back to Ecuador. You know, I have my god, last time I was in Ecuador is like 50 60,000 people. And so over the top and in Lima, Peru was 100,000 people. And it was I had a security detail of set. I mean, it was like the booziest, worldwide, London, Paris, Dublin, wherever I go to appear, the impact of the shows, and I always tried to make the point two points. One, don't let superhero entertainment become a trap, there is a trap. In superhero entertainment. If we develop a psychology like in the old Greek theater, the deus ex machina, it's going to be okay, because something outside of us is going to come down and save us some superhuman element, whether we call it God, whether we call it Superman, whether we call you know, the God in the machine, as they call it, you know, in the old Greek drama is going to come and save us and I say, number one, you have to find out what the heroic elements are in your life, because you have to be the superhero of your world. And then I also say, everybody, all of us, these are stories that I think that's why they relate each of us has I call it a vein of gold, a thing that we do specifically, well, sometimes we don't even know what that is. But usually we do really, if we're quiet with it, and how do you deal in your world with what you know, to be your gift, you get to watch the stories on screen. And Barry's a wonderful example of that. Because he's just a regular guy. He's not a vigilante, you know, he's not huge Hollywood hero, he's a regular guy with an extraordinary gift. And how does he deal with that and come to terms with it, and not let it run away with him metaphorically, and literally, on a daily basis.

Jeff Dwoskin 32:22

It's so much deeper than what people people give credit for. It's like, it's such a nuanced way of telling stories. It's so wonderful. That's why it draws in is it like heartbreaking? Like they're ending their overs and they're bringing down this is the final seasons nine is the final season. It's like,

John Wesley Shipp 32:41

you know what, I got so close to grant that for coming in and playing his father in those eautifully written scenes. And each scene was as beautiful or more and textured and layered than the one before we developed as actors as human beings as characters such a close relationship and I don't know how the man has lasted into season not and so I'm not sorry that I know that that he's ready to move on. And he is giving it his all and it's it's time

Jeff Dwoskin 33:15

nine seasons has a lot to do anything. I mean, I think most people Yeah, you put in you always hear people actors saying, you know time we did everything we could Yeah, it's like at some point you have to do it and

John Wesley Shipp 33:25

then when you add special effects then when you add that you're working in a suit, a superhero suit and you add layer everything on top of that and you're the flash in the flash, it's just it's been a truly heroic effort on his part that he's kept up his energies, enthusiasm, his commitment to the role in the project character and I've just had a blast working with him and I'll be interested to see how they how they close out this ninth season.

Jeff Dwoskin 33:50

You brought backflash 90 You've been also Jay Garrick or to flash Do you love that costume? That's a cool classic character

John Wesley Shipp 33:57

the original one Absolutely. Oh my god, you know I can just take that helmet off as I always do. I walk in Hi, helmet helmet, it goes under the arm. Also it's an outer leather shell and an Under Armour suit so that they can wash the under suit that was the problem with the first suit they couldn't clean them $100,000 To build for suits in 99 That's like $380,000 Today you know to construct for flash suits to for the stuntman and to for me and they had all kinds of problems I was sweating through them they were crumbling from the maintenance from like third episode onward and there thankfully there had they would just hang it in my trailer and spray it was Lysol that when I put it on at five in the morning it still be wet sticky and you know I mean they got there been improvements in a quarter century

Jeff Dwoskin 34:53

so Did no one want to hang out with your the agent. Yeah, we're gonna call it a day job.

John Wesley Shipp 34:59

Okay, you go back to your A trailer.

Jeff Dwoskin 35:02

Which guys? Yeah, we're good. We're good. We're good. We'll see you later. We'll see. Do

John Wesley Shipp 35:05

you want another one? Can I do another? No, no, no, we got it. We got it. Got it.

Jeff Dwoskin 35:11

I know it's funny. I was a Google something. I was like, Oh, they're superheroes other actors that returned to their roles years later, but you got everyone be it seemed like Michael Keaton maybe was going to start to become on your heels. And then all that kind of went went to the wayside. The Crisis on Infinite Earths was an amazing kind of show and connection actually have been Miller was in that one too. There was a lot of flashes and crisis. But that is like wait, this article I found is that superhero are actors are turned to superhero roles. Most of them were from the crisis from the labor ward doing robbing again, Patrick Stewart Professor X but I didn't really count that one cuz I feel like he never really stopped playing that role. And then, you know, Andrew Garfield, Tobey Maguire reexamined, but I think you've kind of set the bar for coming back. Like I said, Keaton was trying to tell got cancelled and then who knows what's happening with that Flash movie now and

John Wesley Shipp 36:04

what do I stop it? I think I've played what is it five characters across four different shows. I was very I was pressed resume on Batman The Brave and the Bold that I came back 24 years later is Henry Allen. And then 28 years later, I was Jay Garrick and then 29 years that I came back as flash 90, if you count that as is and then I took Jay Garrick to Star Girl. So that's CBS Warner Brothers flash. That meant The Brave and the Bold CW flash, CW star girls, so it's been five characters, over 30 years across four different shows in the same franchise. It's kind of mind blowing. It's nothing I ever expected.

Jeff Dwoskin 36:49

That's incredible. I mean, can you think of anyone has even come close to something like that? I will. They

John Wesley Shipp 36:54

told me no, it's been pointed out to me because I didn't think anything of it. It's just another part I would want to play but someone said stop and think about it. This is something for you to notice. You know, it's like you're unique in this genre, the length of time the scope the single franchise, I've been myself my own worst enemy, my father, my mentor, and then a new version of myself on four different shows. So that's bizarre but I'm grateful. So this is while doing Broadway have been Broadway twice. I of course did Dawson's Creek drug addicted cop and psycho father on Teen Wolf you know the closer CSI your you know, all these other things and regional theater, but the thread that keeps coming back is the flash franchise in always very surprisingly.

Jeff Dwoskin 37:46

It's amazing. Oh I find so I always try and dig and try and find alright some random thing that I just say I have no idea is true or not but let's let's just let's go with it for a second. So alright, this relates to flash 90 Daredevil rock Smith was Daredevil and trial of the Incredible Hulk right so they brought back the return Incredible Hulk with Eric Kramer is Thor and then they did the trial at the sequel. And Eric Smith was the first Daredevil and the idea both those was to try and spin off a Thor show and then a daredevil Thor, I think it a writers of writers strike and then the Daredevil one. This is where you come in, is he says I hear from my agent, CBS bought out my contract, because they're coming out with this show called The Flash and they don't want the competition. So NBC sold his contract so they could bury that so that the flash would be the only superhero show on it. And then wreck Smith went back to as the world turns his soap opera career.

John Wesley Shipp 38:45

Oh my goodness, really? I had no idea.

Jeff Dwoskin 38:47

I didn't even know it. Just it was just such a it was so random. I just I don't even know how I found it. Sometimes you like usually you go down these Google rabbit holes, you can just find stuff. It was just

John Wesley Shipp 38:57

an eye came off of As the World Turns to go to the flash. So

Jeff Dwoskin 39:01

there you go. That was funny. I know back then you would you would always joke there was good news. Bad news that the flash 90 got cancelled, like you said, gave so many examples how hard it was the universe wasn't just

John Wesley Shipp 39:13

the number of hours. I mean, you know, we'd be shooting all night long till dawn by Wednesday. And you know, we'd be tenting in the backlot at Warner Brothers in LA and the studio executives would be coming to work as we were going home and our guest stars by about the third day of the episode would be you do this every week. And I remember the topper was we actually woke up a director in his hotel and brought him to the backlot at Warner Brothers to start shooting an episode at 3am on a Saturday morning. It was like, Are you insane? It's like we have to utilize every single hour that we have because it was like a runaway train it Took us nine days, two units running simultaneously to get our one hour show back then, wow, I believe on the new show, we did enter flash time in seven days of principal photography. Now post production, CGI, all that stuff is much longer. They have so much more capability. But the number I was there 55 to 80 hours a week, we had transportation people putting in 2425 hour days, you know, it was insane. said that was that way from the third week in August through the second week in May, with four days off for Christmas. And that was it. I would be under the shower at six. And I would know if it was am or pm one more it was we had worked to like 10 in the morning. So our call was like during the afternoon and I got in my car, I drove to Warner Brothers and all the trailers were gone. And I was like, Mike, there's my parking spot. There's no trip, my trailer is there. Where is everybody? Like, oh, my god did we can cancel. Nobody told me what happened. So I called Danny and Danny's like, John, we're on location today. And I went oh saying that I thought they pulled the plug. And that's when they began to work, they begin to worry a little bit about my sleep deprivation and the heat. And you know the stress of that whole experience. Thank God I was 30 years younger than I never would have been able to do it.

Jeff Dwoskin 41:31

I say you look practically the same. You wouldn't even know you've aged well, whatever you're doing. You should write a book and then make a video on that. I did have one other question i Non flash related. So I know. Guiding Light was one of your was your big breakout in the early early 80s. But during that time you made a visit to fantasy island.

John Wesley Shipp 41:50

Yes, I did. And it's actually on somebody surprised me because I knew what they call the OG flash is on Hulu. They brightened up the transfers. They look fantastic. And they're all running for free streaming for free on Hulu, but somebody sent me the Fantasy Island episode that I did with Susan Lucci and I that must have been 1982 Susan swears because I saw her when I went on in 1992 I was doing dancing at Luna. So the Irish play the Tony Award winning Irish play by Brian Friel at what was then the Plymouth theatre. It's now been renamed the Shenfeld Theatre on Broadway. And they asked me to come in and do four months on all my children this crazy psychotic character. And I hadn't seen Susan in 10 years. Well, no, no, I probably use theater or an award shows her passing. But she swears that I went up that when I met her on the set of Fantasy Island, I went, Oh my God, you're so tiny. And I picked her up on the elbows and started doing shoulder presses with Susan, I do not remember that. But she was You swore to the executive producer, she said that's my first memory of John Wesley.

Jeff Dwoskin 43:01

That's really funny. I looked at I think Anson Williams and David Cassidy were on that episode. I don't know if they were in the same storyline, but anywho Yeah, I know. When we started, we started with a conversation about your death at Dawson's Creek. But you know, there's a Cinemark website out there that lists eight of your deaths, including Dawson Creek across all your television time. So my mom

John Wesley Shipp 43:27

at one point she said I can't take it she said do they write it into your contract that you have to be killed every part you do? She said I can't take it can't take much more of you be watching you being killed. But

Jeff Dwoskin 43:42

it's so funny,

John Wesley Shipp 43:43

but you know, it's usually the characters that work themselves into a spot that the writers can't get them out of there the interesting characters because they become so complex that it's like like that team wolf dad had to die. He had to die. I would have killed him if the riders had you know

Jeff Dwoskin 44:04

it's so funny. You mentioned Broadway and, and the Tony Award winning play you were in. You were also in 12 Angry Men, juror number eight, same as Henry Fonda such power played

John Wesley Shipp 44:15

that role. Very, very powerful role. The interesting thing is, is I actually when I was in high school, somebody sent me pictures that we did a little high school production at Butler High School in Louisville, Kentucky. Our drama class did a production and I was in it and then in 2018 I think it was I went to the Judson Theatre in Pinehurst, North Carolina and had the privilege of appearing on stage with Mike Boland, who is just had a film at different festivals. Yo Andrea is the name of it. He's the best juror number three I will ever see or had the privilege to be on stage with but we had an awesome, wonderful time doing that. And we had planned to do it in Greenwich to do a production in Greece. In which also I was workshopping a play about Jimmy Stewart and Henry Fonda called Hank and Jim build the plane which we took were workshopping in New Orleans. And I had a six year Hallmark contract, we'll be hearing murders and mysteries that was right at the beginning of COVID. When the shutdown happened, that all went away, along with like, eight or 10 personal appearances. And for a year, you know, we all sat and twiddle our thumbs. You know, luckily, I was able to I was called to do Stargirl in February 2021. And I started traveling again,

Jeff Dwoskin 45:35

I that place sounds fascinating, by the way, Hank, and Jim.

John Wesley Shipp 45:38

Well, you know, what's fascinating about it, and it's in workshop now, and I think they're rewriting and going in different directions with it if they picked it back up, and we'll see what happens. Initially, the draft that we did was about the lifelong friendship of Henry Fonda and Jimmy Stewart, despite vast political differences, and ideological differences and romantic rivalries, that, of course, building the plane as a metaphor with How did they manage to stay in relationship with each other, despite, you know, it was during the house on American Activities Committee and naming names, and Henry was more liberal. And Jimmy was more conservative, talking to the committee and Henry finds out well, how do you stay in relationship, which is a great lesson for today with people with whom you have major differences.

Jeff Dwoskin 46:27

Oh, it's an amazing message for today. And it kind of gives you some hope, when you can hear stories like this, that happened decades ago that this is a pattern and that there is a path out of it, that we can disagree and then kind of come to terms

John Wesley Shipp 46:44

and that's kind of what we've forgotten that you know, we can disagree, and nobody has to die, you know, nobody gets to send anybody to hell, I'm sorry. You know, nobody has to leave the room. We can disagree enthusiastically, sometimes it's not possible because the value systems are just too different. But more often than we allow ourselves we can stay keep the relationship intact so that we can keep listening to other to each other and one may move a little this way the other one may move a little that way, but it's not necessarily I disagree with you. So I'm never speaking to you again. I mean, what are we can exactly it's like come on guys. You know one thing my dad who was a minister he just passed away in June it was very progressive minister and one thing he said when you're in a disagreement with the person he said, and you disagree with the what they're saying and you're having a disagreement, he said attack the idea but never the person

Jeff Dwoskin 47:46

Those are great words. Sounds like your father was awesome awesome guy. He was alright for your loss. So any any flash reboots coming up? Or like what would you do if they said you know, Flash tonight is so popular bring it back. We want to do a limited run we want to do a series we want to bring you back the

John Wesley Shipp 48:07

character that I feel that I am uniquely qualified and situated to play right now both age wise and experienced wise is Jay Garrick I would like to know more about J That's one reason I enjoy going to star girl when I have been there with the Justice Society. It's been interesting because Jay, on the flash is an advisor. Star Girl is the Justice Society that's J society. He's in his seat of authority. I've had fans contact me and say you're more Jay Garrick on Star Girl even than you are on flash. I said, Well, I can explain that, because he's in his seat of power it with the Justice Society. So that's great fun.

Jeff Dwoskin 48:51

It is cool. They get to explore the same character in such different ways, depending on what universe you're in.

John Wesley Shipp 48:57

You know, it's amazing. I gotta say one more thing as hesitant as I was to play a superhero character. There were not a list actors by and large blocking to play these characters in 1989 and 1990. Everybody was kind of like wanting to keep their distance to see if this experiment of a new way of telling what's going to I just heard an interview with Jeremy Renner talking about the gift of being able to play his superhero character over a number of years to explore different sides and I've been a professional actor now I'm in my 43rd year of being a professional angling. Wow, how times have changed that we hear an A list actor expressing gratitude that he's been able to play a superhero over a number of years and explore so many different facets of that character. I was like, wow, it's every now and then perspective hits you, you know you

Jeff Dwoskin 50:00

And you're the you were the original trendsetter, they're gonna they should they they should be like, Oh, it's a ship or something like AWS there should be. There should be something they had to coin something that that relates back to you because I think you'd be considered the godfather of this so Wow. So where can people keep up with you on social media? Do you hang out on Twitter and stuff are

John Wesley Shipp 50:19

on very engaged socially and politically, much to many of my admirers chagrin on Twitter and Facebook is the combination if people want not to be subjected to my opinions. That's what I keep my Instagram page for. That's personal pictures from my life. My family, my friends, my neighborhood. My Announcements for my conventions.

Jeff Dwoskin 50:45

Super fun. Yeah, that was my flash. Nice. They

John Wesley Shipp 50:50

heard that I heard that. Anyway, this was awesome.

Jeff Dwoskin 50:53

I can't thank you enough for hanging out with me. This was so much fun. I really appreciate it. You're very

John Wesley Shipp 50:59

welcome. Thanks for having me. Stay in touch. I'm John Wesley Shipp Jr. is my handle on Instagram, but I'm verified on Instagram, Twitter and Facebook. Other John Wesley ships pop up there is even now on Facebook. Currently someone calling themselves John Montaigne with all of my pictures. That's not me. You've got to it's John Wesley Shipp on Twitter and Facebook. And also the name of the heading is John Wesley Shipp. My handle on Instagram is John Wesley Shipp Jr. John Wesley Shipp Jr. and look for the blue chat when

Jeff Dwoskin 51:32

this post I'll I'll put direct links to all your goodness so people can find Yeah, easy peasy.

John Wesley Shipp 51:38

I appreciate it. If you're very welcome.

Jeff Dwoskin 51:42

Did that episode go by really fast? Or was it just me everyone one more time for John Wesley Shipp? How amazing. Is he such a nice guy. Amazing on the flash, CW flash Star Girl, NYPD Blue Dawson's Creek. So many great stories. Well, with the interview over it can only mean one thing I know episode 202 has come to a close. I can't believe it either. One more huge. Thank you for my guest, John Wesley Shipp, and, of course, a huge thank you to all of you for coming back week after week. It means the world to me, and I'll see you next time.

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Transcribed by https://otter.ai