#369 Behind the Trailer: Brent Daniels on Scoring Hollywood’s Biggest Trailers

Jeff Dwoskin 0:00

All right, everyone. I'm excited to introduce my next guest. Producer, composer. You've probably heard his music in one of a million trailers. He's everywhere, film, TV, video games. Welcome to the show. Brent Daniels, hey, Brent. Hey

Brent Daniels 0:17

Jeff. Thank you so much for having me on your amazing show. You have so many cool guests. It's a real honor to be here.

Jeff Dwoskin 0:23

Well, we're adding one cool guest today, one Brent Daniels music, I gotta tell you, is probably my least knowledgeable area, so I'm excited to be schooled a

Brent Daniels 0:34

bit by Oh, I hope I will be a teacher then. Yeah. So it's

Jeff Dwoskin 0:38

fascinating, because when we started talking. You're talking about your niche is in trailers, movie trailers. I assume it's not your fault. They give away all the plot. Now, you're just the music Brent before we kind of get into and look, I mean, for just so everyone knows. I mean, we're talking like bullet train flowers, a killer moon, Hawkeye, Black Widow, Black Panther. I mean, Brent's resume is insane. So we say, Oh, he does movies for trailers. We're talking about some of the biggest movies TV shows ever. I mean, you know, so this is big stuff. Have you always been in the music industry? Yeah,

Brent Daniels 1:19

yes. Since I was three, I've always been in the music industry. It feels like that. I would say I've always been musical since like three. Music Industry came later. It's interesting how I got into this side of it. Like making music for movie trailers is, I mean, technically, it's technically, it's part of the advertising industry. It's marketing, but it is so it's got like, one foot in selling things, obviously, but it's also got another foot in an underscore and scoring. Underscoring, basically, is like a mini movie, whether it's, you know, a two and a half minute theatrical trailer or three minute trailer, or like a 32nd TV spot or something that plays on like tick tock or Instagram, those are little mini movies. So you're kind of really serving the story of a very short, very short story at one point. And I didn't get into music at a young age thinking I'd be doing this at this point in my career. It was just kind of like I weren't where the money was in terms of what we call sync licensing in the entertainment industry. So when you're making music as a composer or songwriter, or if you have a band, you can get your music into like a show, like shameless on Showtime, for example, very famous for using a lot of local Chicago bands, a lot of indie artists, and getting in music into a show like that. You might use a a sync agent who has all the licensing and pitching your music to the music supervisors for show like that, and they'll put the song in the show. And that is what one source of revenue for a lot of composers and producers. And I was definitely doing that for a long time. And then at one point I was like, I like making shorter form stuff and and and for me as a as a producer and songwriter, recording all the vocals myself, running lyrics, it just was a lot more work to make a full track than it was for me to work on something that's more like underscore. It has a lot of the kind of Sonic things I'm really interested in. So I moved over into the trailer side of sync licensing. So it's like this little niche of a niche industry, which is like zing music, see the commercials or TV shows or film or video games, and the trailer side is, is a little more. It's it's a it's a little more off the beaten path, but it's really, really fun to work in. And so well, I started as a songwriter and a producer and assigned artist I, over the course of my career, kind of ended up, at least right now, in this side of the industry, which is, to me, overall, just a lot of fun. It's really fun to be part of these different movies and TV shows.

Jeff Dwoskin 3:53

So it's interesting. You brought that up about the TV show. Now, I don't know if any of your stuff was in suits, but you know how everyone's watching suits now, right, right? And so I've been watching suits, and I'm like, wow, there's some really interesting songs in suits. Like, there's like, stuff, some stuff that you recognize, and then some stuff that's like, clearly, like, I'll call it indie, but it's like, so that's, that's a whole industry in itself. Kind of finding unique music for for these shows kind of give it the vibe that it needs. Oh yeah,

Brent Daniels 4:23

for sure. It's, it's a, it's, it's a, really, in fact, just kind of exploding side of the industry, because we now we have so many shows, because obviously, now we have streaming networks that we didn't have 10 years ago. Didn't Jeff, didn't. Suits come out, like originally, like 10 years ago, is what I heard. Yeah,

Jeff Dwoskin 4:39

it's 10 years old, and it's been off the air since like, 2018 Yeah,

Brent Daniels 4:44

right. So back then, what we had Netflix, but there was, there was no Disney plus, yet, there was no Apple TV Plus, there was no HBO. Well, now it's called Max, you know, but now we have all these networks, we have all these shows, and so there's actually this need for all of. This content. So it's actually a really cool time for independent music producers and composers and songwriters and bands to be writing and getting their music into these shows and and movies and and then there's the whole other side of it. Are the people that are selecting the music. So we have the music supervisors that are pitching these tracks or catalogs the tracks to to the shows and the studios to get these different tracks in there, or the music super actually said that backwards, the sync agent is pitching the the tracks, and the music supervisor for the show is looking for music. So, yeah, that's a whole other really cool side of the business, where people get to pick the music that serves the the narrative or the story. Yeah, it's, I think, really exciting for anyone who's into creating music, even if it's not their career and all that they do. There are a lot of people who just getting into writing music now as well. They're retired or as as their their second lane, while they're working somewhere else and following their their dreams and making music. And hey, there's my song on the Netflix show. It's it's really cool.

Jeff Dwoskin 6:02

I know you mentioned following the money, and it's dream, and it's cool now. But like three back to three year old, Brent. I mean, were your parents musical? Was there anyone in your family musical? Or was this, were you the creative one in your family?

Brent Daniels 6:15

Definitely have creative siblings. But I think I was the only one at that that age, who was playing around on an old organ, which is how I was discovered by my parents that we should give that kid to piano lessons. Your parents

Jeff Dwoskin 6:28

discovered you look at our galaxy,

Brent Daniels 6:32

and they're wonderful people, but neither one of them play play an instrument. So that was, I don't even know where that organ came from, but we had this old organ, and I was flunking around on it, and so, yeah, it was more me just kind of playing around with stuff as a kid. It was definitely all the arts. It was playing on instruments, banging on things, drawing comic books and stuff like that. And I think when getting into those piano lessons by in fourth grade was kind of the catalyst for everything that followed after that, it was like, Oh, I really like this. And so it was studying music in high school and taking music theory. And then I think pretty early, like in the, like late 90s, is where then I got signed. And then just really started just just doing this. I don't think there ever was a so what I said earlier, like a three year old me has always been in the industry. It's, it's, it is a, not really a choice for it's not just me. It's like all my peers who are who make music, they don't that the career chooses them. They don't really choose it. And it's probably heard that from other like writers and other people in the arts. It's, you don't really have a choice it. It's something you're you're obsessed with. So definitely, I've always been obsessed with sound and noise and what, oh, what the wind is playing this note, what's the what note is the wind playing like that's just the way my brain works. So, so fortunately, I found a path, a career path, that I enjoy and that is really rewarding, not that it's not challenging or difficult to navigate. It's as cool as I keep saying it is for people to get into this business and to be part of the process of making stuff that we all love to hear and watch. It's also famously has no support structure and is very speculative. It's not a thing that I'd still recommend, but I'd still recommend to anyone without a backup plan. But were you

Jeff Dwoskin 8:24

in band in like, high school, college? Like, when did you when did you make your first album? So

Brent Daniels 8:30

as a piano player, there weren't as many options for me for playing in band, although finally, in high school, they let me play a synth. Let me play the synthesizer in pep band, which I don't know how common that was in the in the late 80s, but yeah, I had a row on Juneau 106 that I was playing bass on. So I was playing bass in in the band in high school, but it was a synth bass. So somehow got got that synth in the mix there, and then I kind of earned my my early ish 20s. Mid 20s is when I got, I got signed off of a demo, back when you could send a tape to a record label. And that experience is really interesting, because finally, the label that that signed me was TVT records in New York, and they don't exist anymore, but they were, I'd say, finally, because now that I'm making music for sync. It is that label TV stood for TV tunes. So they were a label that specialized in acquiring all the rights of all the old TV shows. So like the first couple of releases were compilations of like the Gilligan's islands theme and good times. And they did really well with that. And then they signed Trent Reznor Nine Inch Nails as like their first non TV tune signing or not, or acquisition. And it was that record was pretty hate machine which, which blew up and put that label on the map. And then so then they kind of became more of like a label, as we. Know them, but, yeah, so, so the label that was releasing compilations of TV theme songs is what I was signed to, initially as a with a partner, a production partner of mine. It was like a studio band, very like cinematic kind of sounding music that was, you know, things I was a fan of, like Depeche Mode and Nine Inch Nails. And all the tracks, all the tracks I was making, were very like soundtrack anyway, so that label ended up licensing those tracks into different movies and TV shows, like Charlie's Angels, the 2000 year, 2001 and that's kind of how I learned about sync licensing and like, oh, wait a minute, you can, like, make a song and then get it in a movie. I think I'd rather do that than, like, play on stage, because I like being the studio anyway. You know, putting on headphones and doing the whole Ellen Parsons, I'm never leaving the studio thing. You know, that was a long answer, Jeff. It

Jeff Dwoskin 10:50

was fascinating. It was fascinating. Oh, good. So let me ask you a question, like, when that the sync license, licensing? Is there a limit? How many times someone can use the same song, I feel like, I feel like I'm only human. I feel like I may have heard 1000 times, you know, though I'm only human. After all, yeah,

Brent Daniels 11:10

by the way, that was a very good rendition. Jeff, thank you. You're welcome. That's a really good question, man. And yes, if you are, if you own the rights to it, you can license a piece of music as many times as you want. That's one of the cool things about it. Actually, here's an example. There's a track that I did that is was used multiple times in different trailers. And you'll, you'll hear it in these trailer and actually, you mentioned some of the some of the movies. So this is like a 15 second spot for bullet train, right? So listen to the music in this track. Delight. Death waits for you with his

Unknown Speaker 11:47

army of assassins.

Unknown Speaker 11:50

We prepare together, we'll die alone.

Unknown Speaker 11:57

Take a day off. Karen, Bullet Train, Thursday, radar,

Brent Daniels 12:00

okay, so that's a track that I wrote called Cold cocked. Now that same track is also in this trailer. This is a trailer for The Bad Batch at Star Wars, eminent show on Disney plus. And listen to the music in this trailer,

Speaker 2 12:12

the clones of unit 99 have a tendency to veer from standard protocol. We do what we do, the Empire will control everything, and

Unknown Speaker 12:25

I am going to be a part of it. You made the wrong choice.

Speaker 2 12:31

Kagan sent everyone in the galaxy. What are we waiting for? We're not

Jeff Dwoskin 12:36

out of this yet. Go

Unknown Speaker 12:39

Bad back all episodes now streaming only on Disney plot, and that

Brent Daniels 12:41

is kind of fun. Of funny, because then then this is another trailer. This is for that the show, Hawkeye Marvel studio show on Disney plus.

Speaker 3 12:50

There's only more than 1000 of them, two of us. And that's not the only thing.

Unknown Speaker 12:56

Even a Black Widow that was really fun

Speaker 2 12:59

experience the show that everyone's talking about someone you don't want to mess with. Can the people need to be reminded the city belongs to me? Wow, I did not see that coming. Marvel Studios, Hawkeye, all episodes now streaming only on Disney, plus Jeff

Brent Daniels 13:19

and I are both laughing because it's like, it's as you hear the same truck and these different things. It's like, it's it's almost kind of silly. It's funny. And here's one more. This is the this is a game. This is a destiny, two made by Bungie. I won't play the whole thing, but again, same track.

Speaker 4 13:36

What is the relic on Mars? The power to create your own weapons. So

Brent Daniels 13:47

you gotta, you kind of get the idea there, so that that's actually, that's, I think that's my most licensed track that's in different different trailers. Yeah, do you call that your mortgage track? We'll see someday. We'll see so

Speaker 1 13:58

it's interesting, because, like, I mean, it's clear when you're playing back to back, oh, that's cool. It's the same thing. But like, when you're near, it's interesting, because when you're marrying, like, very specific visuals, like bad batch or bullet train, which I love that movie, by the way. I thought it was GREAT movie. You know that it doesn't sound necessarily the same, because you're almost applying something different to it, as opposed to, like, when you're watching a thing, like a commercial Microsoft, I'm owner humor, yeah, like when it's words, it's the same, you know, I mean, right, right,

Brent Daniels 14:32

right. And number one, all those trailers are, those are spaced out over the course of 18 months, I think, for all those different shows. So no one's hearing them back to back like that. And then you're right about the context. It's like, those are all different kinds of shows. And you're also correct there's no lyrics or words in these things. So it's while it's definitely genre stamped in terms of, like, being action oriented, it is. It fits into, you know, each one of those. Properties is kind of an action, has at least a trailers are cut to action. So while they it's definitely in a specific genre, there are any words so it's it's a lot more, some are a lot more placeable and into different things.

Speaker 1 15:13

So when they license that music from you, are you just handing over your baby, like they take the song, they can do what they wish with it, or are you actually helping sync it up with the trailer?

Brent Daniels 15:25

That's another great question. Generally speaking, I mean, no, absolutely speaking, no, I'm not. I'm handing it over. There are a couple different ways avenues that music works in trailers. One is a custom situation where you're getting a request to make something. But even in that case, generally speaking, you're not working to picture. You're not working in any picture. Most of the time. The other lane is where you're you have a track, which is the case of of this, this piece that I was just playing, that I had made in advance, and then that is pitched to the different trailer shops or trailer houses, you know, hundreds of companies, most of which are in LA that get music all the time that was looking for music for all their trailers they're working on, and they cut the trailer to the music. So once I hand it over, sometimes there'll be requests for modifications, like, there was a track that I did actually was a custom request that I had done for that was Ozark. I think it was season four of Ozark for the main trailer, and that didn't end up landing. But then a trailer house was cutting to that same track later for killers of the flower moon. And then they wanted to, they had a 32nd spot they were working on, and they wanted to extend it into a 62nd spot the studio where they liked the cut. So they were like, couldn't do a 62nd so they wanted more stuff at it. And you get like, 12 hours, maybe 24 hours to turn something around, to try and try and do it. But even in that case, I'm not seeing any footage, they're not letting me see. They're not giving me any footage that's gonna leak out anymore. So it's basically like text notes. We need something that's, can you do this? Can you do that? So, yeah, whether it's a custom kind of situation where you're being asked to do something, or you're being asked to modify a track you've already made, or you've just made a track in advance, which is, frankly, the way I and a lot of people prefer to do it, because then you can take your time. You know, you can create this piece of music as you see fit, hand it off and you give them what we call the stems. They're like the multi track version of the track. So you've got bass, drums, everything's separated out. So the trailer editors can essentially remix the track from a two and a half, three minute piece down to, you know, like a 32nd spot, a 62nd or whatever. They can freely move all parts around. But, yeah, once you've licensed, once you've given it to them, they can do whatever they want with it. Frankly, I'm totally fine with that. It is important to to note that it is a license. It's not a buyout. So I'm not like, literally selling them the track. And as you noted, the reason you can reuse stuff is because it's a license, so they can use it, you know, like in a in a Facebook ad, they can use it on YouTube, they can use it for TV spots, and that's generally what happens. It's called an all media license. Usually it's all media, excluding theatrical. But you can also have all media, just all media, where it can also play theatrically. This is a lot of that's a big, long, wordy answer, dude, no,

Speaker 1 18:20

that's look. I mean, these, these, they're not short answers. They're very intricate things here. Here's my question for you. When you said they can remix it and do all that kind of stuff, can they but they come back to you if they need it from 60 seconds to a minute 20 or whatever, can they use? AI, oh, that's a good question.

Brent Daniels 18:39

Well, I haven't been asked that question. Usually the questions are, well, how do we use AI in music? Do you mean to, like, generate music? Well,

Speaker 1 18:47

I mean, it's a 32nd thing, and then you got the bad batch thing. And they're like, I'm just making this up, because, like, they got the bad batch commercial, and there's a scene where this thing blows up. So the song's great, except they want something like, more dramatic in this one spot. So they go, here die, AI, take this one great thing that Brent made. But then in this one make, make it like, so it's like pairing with an explosion. So the AI, go eternal, bam, yeah, or whatever. You can license that if you need to. Yeah, you're recording this

Brent Daniels 19:18

dude. So now we have a sample of that. We're gonna make a sample of that. We're gonna make a trailer. That's great,

Jeff Dwoskin 19:22

exactly, well, and

Brent Daniels 19:26

that's funny, because that's the way, like, you know, a publisher, a music supervisor. Sometimes it's the short the shortcut to explain the kind of sound we need like, we need something like, goes like, do, do, do, do, do, like that. Sometimes that just gets the job done. As far as AI, at this point, currently, there isn't really generative AI for doing music at the level that's useful all for this type of stuff. This stuff, the tools that are available to the public right now that you know, like Google's making stuff, for example, that you can play around with that generates, like, background music that you could use, as you know, that wouldn't normally be served by like, like a low. In Production Music Library. But it's not custom. It's not bespoke in any way. And you're certainly not getting any kind of like artistic viewpoint on the thing being done. And it's very similar to, you know, the whole thing that was happening with the writers strike and the negotiating around using AI to punch up a script, which is like, oh, or an AI to make the script, then he would punch it up where it's like, but the core thing is garbage. I can't punch up garbage. Fred, so same thing still applies in music, right? And definitely in the trailer music world, although it's, you know, kind of it has its tropes and structure that make a trailer, a trailer like a three act structure, and it tells a story. It has an arc. Even if that arc is only 30 seconds long. It is still what music supervisors and trailer editors and producers at the trailer companies and ultimately the studio heads who are proving and in the case of definitely a big budget movie like what the main trailer is, what they're looking for is something that no one's ever heard before, or something that is not what was used in that other trailer. So as much as, like, I'm playing a version of a track that was used in multiple different TV shows and games, and bullet train being the exception, a lot of the music that I'm writing, if it's used in a main trailer, like I did a track that was used and there was no customizing at all, it was just I did this track, and then the trailer house had the full track with all the stems, and they cut trailer for Chaos Walking. It's a Lions Gate film 2021, and they cut the trailer to that. They that track hasn't been used in any other main trailer, and probably won't, because it's already been used for that thing. It's had it exposure, its exposure, and then another studio would use that as their main trailer, because it's kind of like identified with that film is kind of the thinking. So, I mean, even some studios don't like what, there's one in particular that does not like anyone to think that the music for their trailers is made by composers that aren't the studio itself, because they want to have this illusion that we have this bespoke, custom music. This music is bespoke and custom, but it's made by 1000s of composers all over the world, like myself, who are bringing their own viewpoints and level of artistry to it. So that kind of thing is sought out by the trailer houses and separates this little micro niche of music production from, say, like library music you can get for a like a podcast or something to play in the background on a influencer's YouTube channel, whatever. So that is not, I think, on the short term time horizon for replacing my job, but down the line, who knows, as far as your initial question about, do they if they if they need something extended. And I can give you an example here of what like a piece of trailer music is that you make specifically for the intention of it being used in a trailer. And that's mostly what I prefer to do, and what I do most of the year I'm just making tracks here in my studio, and those tracks are two and a half minutes long. So that's more than enough to cut down to a 32nd or a 62nd TV spot or to use as a full trailer if they need something, if there's a custom request to add to it, it's usually not time or more of the same elements. It's like we would like to repurpose this for this other movie. Can you add this kind of stuff into it, whatever that thing might be? And they would, and they would, they would ask the either the composer or the representative the composer to, hey, can you we're working on this thing. Can you add stuff to it? You know, they would, they would ask for you just to do it instead of a robot. I hope they keep doing that. You're

Speaker 1 23:29

better than a robot. I you can, thank you, man. Well, you can put that quote on your website if you want, better than a robot, better than a robot. So licensing is something you want as a business model, I mean, versus like, do you want Martin Scorsese buying that track so that no one else can ever use it? I assume that costs a lot, lot more. But are those two existing models that could work either way? Like, if you're like, Oh, if someone wants to buy it, God bless them,

Brent Daniels 23:57

well generally, like, it's not just in trailers, but in marketing for film, TV and games, the music side of the music industry. So if it's a label just releasing a record, generally speaking, nobody ever wants to sell the copy, or, you know, the copyright, the masters, the publishing, which are all different things that we get into here, but you always want to retain ownership, because there are performance royalties depending on what it is. If it's a song playing on the radio, those are that's your performance rights organization, like in the US ASCAP or BMI, you're getting royalties for that public performance if you license a track to mention shameless, if your track plays whatever it plays on Showtime. You're getting world faces for that. I saw you. That's you owning the the writer's share, for example, of that a piece of music and then, and then the actual recording, the master. Okay, now I'm really getting into the weeds here, but bottom line, generally, you don't want to let that go a label. It's definitely was very cool. In the back, back in the day, for artists not to be aware that they shouldn't, you know, give up their their publishing, for example, on a track. And then when you're starting a label deal, you're also, you know what? This is, more than you asked for. Let's just talk about trailers, no

Speaker 1 25:13

brand. This is, this is we're learning. We're learning. I don't know anything. Folks that listen, we have a certain level of knowledge, and I'm assuming they're learning along with I find this extremely interesting. Let me, let me ask here. Let me give you a way to tell it. Maybe you'll find you won't feel so self conscious about it. Explain to me what happened to Taylor Swift, why she was able to re record her on music and make even bazillion dollars more offer music after it was sold. Oh, wow,

Brent Daniels 25:44

yeah. Well, that's a that's a situation of Taylor wanting her autonomy back and ownership of that music, so she was able to do what's called a re record, and that's to regain because she didn't own the Masters, which is common when you sign a record deal that's different for what we're doing in licensing for for trailers. Here my I own any of these tracks I've played are co owned with my publisher. I work with different publishers that pitch my music and administer the royalties and handle also negotiating with the studio, ultimately, if a trailer is going to finish, which is what we call it, when a when a trailer is got the go ahead and it's released and so, but I'm not doing a selling any physical, you know, mechanical, no CDs, no streaming of it's not like a the same situation, necessarily. But in the case of signing a label deal. And I'm not completely aware of everything with Taylor Swift situation, but I do know that her re recording and re releasing her hits is the way to get around not owning the masters to the original so she could continue earning their revenue off those because obviously, those are huge songs. Prince did the same thing to, you know, get around his onerous Warners contract. You know, from his point of view, got

Speaker 1 27:05

it. Have you ever, you don't have to say specifically, I just a yes or no, because I doubt you'd want to point it out. Have you ever, like, seen a use of your music and you're like, Oh, I'm gonna take credit for that one. Oh, like, like, you're like, what did they do to it? They turned it into just all violins or something. Oh, yeah,

Brent Daniels 27:24

no, no, not that. But, you know, I have to say there's such a it's almost a miracle for to get music finishing in any trailer, because of the way it's set up, like these trailer houses that make the the trailers for any trailer that's released or definitely like depending on the size of the film, let's say, a major motion picture, a three minute theatrical trailer for a Marvel studio trailer. There are, you know, maybe four or five trailer houses all competing to get that same main trailer, and they're working with their own publisher that they work with might be representing the composer. So you're competing with other composers. Then also the studio might have someone in house. They're cutting their own trailer. So there is, there are all these levels of competition happening, and then this, the trailer is, especially at that level, is going to be focus tested, you know, to like an audience in the Midwest to see, do we like this? And the difference between that that trailer finishing over the other ones, could come down to something that has nothing to do whatsoever with the music that's in it, with the the cut that the editor did. And it could be amazing. It could be because, it could be because an actor in the film is really opinionated about it, or the studio head is, or there are some trailers, or movies, rather, for which the trailers definitely are going to go past, like, if it's a mission, impossible trailer, Tom Cruise is very hands on with the marketing for for those movies. You know, he obviously produces them. So there are so many layers to any of these things happening at all that to me, it's like, Thank God that made it into a trailer, you know. So I don't have any complaint about any one of my things showing up in anything in terms of trailers. Now shows where it could be like a rally show when I was earlier in my career, where maybe I number one wasn't as skilled as I am now much earlier on. Number two, I also wasn't as informed about how things work. And maybe did a buyout of my music and just did a bunch of music really fast and gave away the rights to it to an organization, to a company that then licensed them to all these, you know, really low rent shows, yeah, with funny names, there's some embarrassing things out there. Definitely, if you look at my IMDb, there are, unfortunately, there's no IMDb for for trailers, because they don't get credited on the considered marketing, so it's not part of the production. So any of these trailers I don't get credit for, like in credits or. On IMDb. So there's, there's another funny side to it. So yeah, not a lot of shame in my game with this, though, because it's like, to me, again, I'm a movie lover. I love making music for TV and film, even if this isn't technically writing the picture, it's kind of like it's excellent, kind of, it's totally opposite the way, the way in which music is done for for film and TV on the production. This is post production. This is making the music first, and then they're cutting footage from the film to it even that. It's still always a thrill to hear something that you worked on in your home studio show up in a trailer for a film that suddenly, you know millions of people are watching. It's really cool when

Speaker 1 30:41

you're in contention for a trailer where you know they're focused testing yours versus someone else's. Do you get paid regardless? Or are they allowed to play with your music up to a point well, or have they already bought it? Well?

Brent Daniels 30:53

They so that's yeah. Great questions. Jeff, very good and interesting. People are shocked to find out about this industry that, like, you don't get paid. You don't get paid anything until a trailer finishes like and often I don't know. I don't know if it's even in contention. Sometimes I do. Some of my publishers let me know if there is a, what's called a stem request, meaning that trailer house really wants to use this track. So they want the they want the stems, and then, you know, it's, there's potential that it could be going final. When you get a quote request, which is like, now it's like, Okay, what's the How much is it to use this track? But I don't usually want to, want to know those things, because so many of these don't finish. It's like, you're waiting for shoes you drop all the time. It's like, I'd rather, I'd rather not know, because then it's just a nice surprise. Like, oh, hey, this trailer showed up on YouTube there. That's my truck. Great. Okay, cool. So I don't really know very often if it is in in contention, and I prefer it that way. Oh, what was the other thing I was gonna say that's related to that you don't read my mind. How do you know? What was the other thing I was gonna say, do you? Are you mind reader? That'd be amazing.

Speaker 1 32:03

You were gonna tell me about the time Martin Scorsese called you to so he could use your music for killers of the flower moon. Oh,

Brent Daniels 32:11

I wish he's calling T bone brunette. I uh, yeah, no, um, to your earlier question about like, if Martin Scorsese wanted to, want to buy the license like the transfer ownership of any my pieces of music, the answer would be yes. That has never happened. I doubt it will. But if it did, he can have any of my tracks. Absolutely he can. I will sign that away.

Speaker 1 32:32

I think he only licensed that one Rolling Stone song, right? Oh,

Brent Daniels 32:38

there you go. That's a good example. It's a good example of licensing, and that's a really expensive license. It's really interesting how, like, I'm not obviously the Rolling Stones, but it's still for someone like me or another, what you call an independent composer producer. It can be lucrative, not at the Rolling Stones level, depending on the size of the movie, but definitely it's very interesting business in terms of, like, which studios have, which movies or shows have the bigger budget, bigger marketing budget, which studios like to don't like to pay as much as other ones. And then there's the other kind of black box side of the industry to at least from for me is what I'm doing, like something, like a remix. For example, I just the season three trailer for slow horses came out a couple weeks ago. That show streaming a couple days, and I did a remix of this track, club foot by Kasabian. And so I get paid the sync fee for my work doing what we call a trailerization. It's a remix that's designed for so it's not the trailer house doing a quote, unquote remix of the stems to make it fit into 30 seconds. This is like a traditional remix you do, where you're doing like a different spin on the track, but then it's got trailer elements in it as well. So we call that a trailerized remix. Now in that I don't own that track. I'm not the rights holder. I'm a composer doing a remix. So I get paid a what, you know, compared to, say, one of my original pieces that might get licensed for a trailer. I'll get paid something similar, maybe less. But the whoever owns the that track, it could be Kasabian or could be, I don't know who there, who owns that track, but the amount that they that is paid out to the artist, could be, I mean, depending on the movie, I mean, it could, you could be a $400,000 it could be really high numbers. And for a track, Like a Rolling Stones track, it's going to be, definitely going to be up there. So movie studios have, like, there might be, like, $100 million budget for marketing, and part of that's going for things like we need to get, I just have to have that Rolling Stones track in my trailer, says the studio head. I don't know that they talk like that or are chopping on a cigar. I don't think they do that

Speaker 1 34:56

anymore. Ah, give me that song. Give me that song. I. Yeah, I tell you that slow horses, I watched it. I'm like, I'm watching it now. And it's not just because Gary Oldman was really great at your music. Sucked me right in. And the weird part about it, it's so weird with TV shows and stuff now, where I'm like, Oh, I have apple plus. And here's a show, slow horses starring Gary Oldman, Academy Award winner, Gary Oldman, I've never even heard of this show before.

Brent Daniels 35:23

Yeah, I know, yeah. I mean, it's, it's crazy how much content there is out there. It's insane, except for during when we had the strike, which is why we were watching, why wasn't, but that's why suits comes back from 10 years ago. But, yeah, putting production stoppages aside, it is, I don't have the time to watch all this stuff. I just started watching it too. If I watched the first two seasons, I'm like, I should, I should watch this show once I had gotten the one of the trailers for the first season, and then when I got the trailer for the main trailer for this third season. Like, I definitely should check out this show. I love this actor, and, yeah, it's the that's a case of the marketing sucking, sucking you in, and I was part of the marketing for them. Like, I got to watch this show. You know, if you're, if you're getting people to watch a show from the cut of the trailer, or from something they hear in the trailer, like there's sounds that we use in trailers. One of them's called the signature sound, which is something that they often will cut that around. It's kind of like the sonic they'll cut the trailer around it, like they'll do cuts on this particular sound might be a melody, it might be a sonic motif. It could be just like a resonant, metallic sound that's repeating. That's called the signature sound. The idea is to, the idea is to, in my mind, attract the ear of the audience. If you can get someone to turn their head and look at the TV or their screen and go, Oh, what was that? And then, and you've sucked them in, and you hold their attention for an enough seconds they go, I'll check that movie out. Then you've won. That's what they're allocating $100 million for, potentially. So, yeah, it's very interesting. I never thought that I'd be working in this side of music at all, but for me, it just ends up working out that I love sound, and this the cinematic side of sound, you know, married to picture. And I just love tweaking in the studio and putting on headphones and playing with with tools and taking Found Sound and shaping it and twisting it. And the style of music that you're able to do in trailers really fits into that. Like, for example, like with slow horses, that track for the first the first season. I'll play a little bit here. This is, this is a track I did called mutation. And this is the kind of thing that that is, is what I would send out, or is sent out to a trailer house. So it's, I'm not seeing anything when I'm running this. I'm just working in a particular style for this. It's like, kind of slow burn, definitely have an action, kind of back end or climax at the end. And it's, but it's a piece of music that you listen to. It's not just a collection of like drops and risers and stuff, although we have that stuff, it's like a score for a film that doesn't exist yet. Here's a signature sound, Melody

Jeff Dwoskin 38:20

sucking me right in,

Brent Daniels 38:21

yeah, it's it's designed to if I can suck myself in listening to it, then I can suck you. That's called a stop. It's a break. So we're building this gradually. We

Unknown Speaker 38:52

got our big drums. We

Brent Daniels 39:00

and that goes on for like another, another about a minute, but that that's that is making a piece of music specifically for trailers. And the idea, at least, to me, is that it needs to be something that you can just listen to as, like, a music list, music listener, as a, as a, I meant to say a music fan, like, you know, oh, this is track. Suck me in. I like this. This is cool. And if I can, like I was saying, if I can suck you in or myself in, that's the goal. The goal is, actually, it's dual it. One is to be able to have something that works, that can work for a trailer and and serve that purpose as underscore, essentially, but also that I get the attention of a music supervisor or producer at a trailer house, because they hear stuff all day long. They hear like everything. So if I can get them to go, oh. Oh, that's dope. Then they're more likely to start editing to it, so that track is then, then just shows up in like this.

Speaker 5 40:08

You're England's best. Mi five Asians. Not anymore. You screwed up so royally they sent you to me.

Speaker 6 40:20

Go check this out. Hostage. There is something finally happening. That's the job for the real agent.

Unknown Speaker 40:27

I am directing all personnel. I

Unknown Speaker 40:31

didn't mean to kill him. If you meant to kill him, he'd still be alive. There's

Brent Daniels 40:35

your signature sound on the title card at the end there, Jeff, and back to your here's your callback, Jeff. That same track was then used in this Resident Evil trailer. Resident

Unknown Speaker 40:44

Evil Welcome to Raccoon City. Several

Speaker 7 40:46

years ago in Raccoon City, I found out the truth about the Umbrella Corporation. What is this place? This is where they were experimenting on him. Oh.

Speaker 7 41:05

We have to stop umbrella. This is just the beginning.

Speaker 2 41:10

Resident Evil, welcome to Raccoon City, exclusively in movie theaters. November 24

Unknown Speaker 41:16

they're very, very different. Shows

Speaker 1 41:18

and movies. It's incredible. It's, it's really, really, really cool. I gotta say, I've so I've seen in the wild a lot of your work. So you definitely suck, man, you, I mean, they can call, they can count a Black Widow Hawkeye and Black Panther view. Credit that to you. Brent Daniels Dwoskin, their their way. This was, you got it? Man, yeah, this is a lot of fun. Thanks for schooling us on this niche world of trailer and music, trailers. My music, trailer music, trailers and music, yeah, trailer trailer park. Music,

Brent Daniels 41:56

right? There's a, there's a, there's a trailer house called trailer park, so that that's that's already happening.

Speaker 1 42:02

Brent, where can everyone keep up with you on the socials? Yeah,

Brent Daniels 42:06

probably the best place to be my website. Brent Daniels, music.com or you can just Google search. Brent Daniels. All my socials are there on the front page, and you can hear some of this music and watch a lot of these trailers there if you are interested in seeing the pictures that were happening with sound, Yeah,

Speaker 1 42:23

amazing. Brent, thanks for hanging out with me. Really appreciate it. Jeff, thank

Brent Daniels 42:28

you for having me. This was amazing. Thank you so much and audience, Thanks for Thanks for joining us too. I just thank your audience,

Speaker 1 42:36

I appreciate it. Hey, they appreciate it. Why not? I love your audience, yeah.