#346 Jay Johnson’s Adventures on Soap and Broadway

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Jeff Dwoskin 0:27

all right, Rhonda, thank you so much for that amazing introduction. You get the show going each and every week, and this week was no exception. Welcome everybody to episode 346 of classic conversations, as always, I am your host. Jeff Dwoskin, great to have you back for what sort of one of the weirdest episodes of all time with my guest, Master ventriloquist, Jay Johnson, you know and love him from soap. He was Chuck and Bob Campbell on that classic series. We're talking all about soap, and we're diving deep into his play the two and only Jay is a Tony Award winner. Oh, we are going so much greatness coming up in just a few seconds. And in these few seconds Marla Pennington was here last week. That's right, also from soap and small wonder. Do not miss that amazing conversation as well. But right now, buckle up for what's sure to be one of the greatest conversations of all time with Jay Johnson. We're talking ventriloquism soap and so much more. You're gonna love it. Stay to the end for a special guest, and we'll all this goodness right now. All right, everybody, I'm excited to introduce my next guest, actor, writer, comic, best known for playing Chuck and Bob gamble on soap, considered to be one of the top practitioners and the art of ventriloquism, a one man duet, winner of a Tony Award for the two and only so excited to have my guest today. Jay Johnson, hello, hello. I

Jay Johnson 2:14

heard the applause. Thank you. Jeff, yeah. Ventriloquist can not only throw their voice, they can throw other sounds in their head. So I heard a big crowd.

Jeff Dwoskin 2:22

I did too. I'm going to do the whole interview like this,

Jay Johnson 2:28

perfect, perfect. You know, when Tabby was in a sound booth. And you know when you do ADR, later you come back and you're looking at your film and you're putting in sounds. And this particular time, I don't think it was Bob. I think it was another character I do, and this needed a little cleanup on it. So I went into the booth, and I thought, well, I can't move my lips, or it will match. I mean, the sound is always different. So only the engineer could see me, and they said, and action, and he couldn't see me doing anything, but he heard a voice. It was it took him four or five times to realize that he couldn't look at me. He could just see me. So did you hear that dog bark?

Jeff Dwoskin 2:59

I did. I did. Yeah, well, I hope

Jay Johnson 3:01

it goes away. It's my little dog hair. Let me see if he comes in. If, okay, come on in. Actually, it was my dog, boo. Have two dogs. There you go. No, we should be fine.

Jeff Dwoskin 3:10

Sorry, Jeffrey, no problem. Anything for Boo. Boo.

Jay Johnson 3:14

Story is longer telling stories that are non sequitur. Boo was originally a Weird Al Yankovic dog, and evidently didn't get along with his daughter. So I was at a poker game, and somebody was from the actors and others for animals, and they said, you know, Al's trying to find a good home for the dog. And I kind of went, Wow, I wonder what? And so we've had her for 10 years now. So there you are. She's a great dog,

Jeff Dwoskin 3:36

awesome, Weird Al's old dog.

Jay Johnson 3:40

Yeah, I know I make a joke that to punish her, I play the accordion, and it seems to work. Yeah, it seems to work. Anything

Jeff Dwoskin 3:46

Polka would do it. Anything Polka, love word out. Me too. We can get to the two. And only because I want to kind of go back and kind of hear a little bit of the origin story that I know you talk about in the two. And only the thing that amazes me about ventriloquism when you're there and you're starting moving and, like, I know there's a story we can get to it later about soap and then miking Bob. And, yeah, yes, they did, but that's what it looks like. It's not even so much just, I mean, it's like the projection of the voice, and it sounds like it's coming from somewhere else. It's, it's unbelievable, skill, talent, art. When did you discover that you could do this voodoo? It

Jay Johnson 4:24

sounds like a press release, but I remember when I was very young, probably it was a Jimmy Nelson instruction pamphlet in Nestle's quick, almost sure it was, and it just said the basic ventriloquism, don't move your lips and try to talk. And a voice that's different. And I remember going to the to the mirror and just kind of trying it, and heard this voice, and I turned and I realized, Oh, that's it. That's it. That's that's what it is. So I fooled myself. First, your eyes are actually much better at sound than your ears if you're in a live situation, because your ears are not they don't move independently, and your eyes do. So your eyes always catch what light is, so much faster you catch that. And then you direct your brain to think it's coming from there. It doesn't sound too good to break it down, that's too much fun. No,

Jeff Dwoskin 5:06

I understand. Well, it's, you know, I think people will understand that when they're driving, especially around the July 4 time frame where you see the light, yeah, and you hear the boom, exactly.

Jay Johnson 5:15

Other animals are so much better at sound than we are, but most of them, like a rabbit or a horse or something. They move their ear to the sound, they don't move their eyes and then direct their head. That's because their eyes are either side anyway. That's the physiological science of intro. Because of No, I

Jeff Dwoskin 5:30

love it. It's it's definitely mean, because that's what you need to do, right? Because everyone has to believe that this is happening, and that's And absolutely, while at the same time watching, it's like watching a magic trick that you know what's happening and still not being able to see how it's happening. That's

Jay Johnson 5:45

the difference between magic and ventriloquism. I've always thought is that you can always appreciate the magic trick, but you always see where you do the double lift, or where you take it out of the box and ventriloquism. Yeah, you're right. I know that he's going to do that. I know that it's puppet, that he's working, but it's more of a psychological trick. Did you fall into it pretty easily.

Jeff Dwoskin 6:03

You talk about this in two and only watching, no, it was radio. You were listening to a radio show, and then you eventually went to them live. Yeah, it was Big John

Jay Johnson 6:12

and Sparky, which is, it was a children's show on Saturday morning called no school today came on, I think, about 930 and my brother was in love with that show, and we shared a room, so I got to hear it. I had a picture of them, and then when you see them live, it's a whole different picture. And didn't realize that he was doing the voice. And you know, the radio really was an education for me. So

Jeff Dwoskin 6:34

ventriloquism probably is a lot easier on the radio. Oh, well,

Jay Johnson 6:38

ask Edgar Bergen, who became very wealthy and famous doing it, but Ed Bergen always takes a hit about well, his technique wasn't very good. But if you look at him as a radio actor, his technique was excellent. Always. Charlie was crystal clear. So whatever it took to make it on the radio, which ventriloquism should have faded, you know, really, he brought it through that time just because his imagination and his voice and timing were so good, I was also

Jeff Dwoskin 7:02

reading in ventriloquism. It helped you with your dyslexia? Yeah,

Jay Johnson 7:07

I don't know if it helped me or my dyslexia helped me stay with ventriloquism, but dyslexia is one of those weird things that's different for everybody. And I'm probably a seven or eight on a scale of 10, you're not good with the code that gives you letters and numbers and when they start to interpret in your brain. And somebody told me that there is a possibility that it's because the two hemispheres of your brain, one never asserted dominance in your childhood, so you might have learned a word and the left hemisphere was in dominance, and then the next time you see it, your right hemisphere is in dominance, and it doesn't know what the word is, so you have to kind of do a global search and find it, so it slows you down. But ventriloquism has nothing to do with codes and numbers and symbols and writing and reading. It's all vocal. And so it was just perfect for what my disabilities were.

Jeff Dwoskin 7:54

Once you discovered this talent, working at Six Flags, doing an insane number of

Jay Johnson 8:00

shows, yeah, oh, yeah. The deal was at those theme parks back then, theme parks were primarily a college workforce of basic college kids, because they started their season was Memorial Day to Labor Day, so exactly when school was off back when. So it was college kids. We did five shows a day, and there were two casts. So you have 10 shows a day at a theater. One show cast as five. The other does five. One summer to make a double salary, I did double the work. I did 10 shows a day. And I think after that time, either I would have loved it or hated it. So I continue to love it.

Jeff Dwoskin 8:34

This is full on ventriloquism at this point to all these shows. Is it one character, multiple characters? I used a

Jay Johnson 8:41

different character for the two shows. So the day cast, I would use one character that was kind of a space man, and then the late show I would do squeaky which is, for all intents purposes, Bob. He was the same voice and same character as Bob, just a different puppet. So

Jeff Dwoskin 8:55

in a way, is this what you credit? Then this kind of rapid fire, just so much experience packed into this, you started to kind of rise up as one of the true future experts at ventriloquism. Yeah, I

Jay Johnson 9:10

assume everything that you do, you know, is the sum of what you are. But, and I'm sure it didn't hurt, and I really was not bored by that, I found a new way. I think the key is when you're performing, particularly, particularly if you're in a show that has the same dialog, same cast, same numbers, you have to find a way to make that refreshing every time you do it. Or if you get stale, it's just death on stage. So I was able to find some way that every show and every audience, to me, was brand new experience and happiness, and that's kind of the way I've always felt. So it certainly triggered that in me, I don't know, I'm sure that I would not have continued if it was not pleasant for me back then.

Jeff Dwoskin 9:46

I just meant also, like, that much experience packed into that moment in time, like, that's true 918 times over and over again. There's one thing when you do something, you know, like, and then a month later you do it again, or a month later, you know. But to be able to constantly be pivoting and learning and and doing it again, going to sleep, same or rinse, watch, repeat. I mean, it's like it just seemed like trial under fire. It is.

Jay Johnson 10:10

And, you know, that's not only the way to learn something, but that's also, well, I had a thought and it went out of my head. But yeah, repetition is part of it, learning to do that. And I Oh, I knew what it was. I was also just out of high school when I did that. I was going into college that fall. It was kind of a time in my life when I was in transition, and all of that stuff really played a part, and really jumping into it. And it was fun. That was it six likes over Georgia in Atlanta. That was their first year they were open, 67 maybe 67 I don't know. Nice

Jeff Dwoskin 10:42

is your picture on the wall there? Does it still exist? Yes,

Jay Johnson 10:46

that theater exists. The year before, I actually had done, I think, three shows a day for an amphitheater at Six Flags Over Texas, and that's no longer there. It's now a full blown theater. They were going to call it the Crystal Palace, and then the night before we opened, they called it the crystal pistol, which I thought was a little less classy. Found out later it was a crystal pistol was a strip joint that CEO liked. So we got to take the name

Jeff Dwoskin 11:09

only in Texas. Well,

Jay Johnson 11:12

that was in Georgia, so you're worse, yeah, yeah. Oh, that was in Georgia. Oh, okay. But you know what? It's the same CEO that was in Texas. So either way, you could play with their state.

Jeff Dwoskin 11:22

That's funny. All right, so you move in the 70s, you moved to LA, yeah, when did you decide you want to pursue television and take that path? That

Jay Johnson 11:32

was always what I was interested in and hope to do. When I was in high school, I did a children's show. Didn't last very long, and we did little skits, and I had characters, and we were on Saturday morning, and we would show jungle gym with Johnny Weiss Miller and doing that, and do commercials I really did like the whole idea of production, and it happens in LA, so you have to come out here and do it. Who would have thought that at some point, Susan Harris would read a book called Magic and put that character into a sitcom? I thought I would end up acting on a television show, because I love to act as well.

Jeff Dwoskin 12:02

I love the story of, okay, well, first, before we get back to Susan Harris in a second, is, so your intention wasn't necessarily to be a ventriloquist actor that sort of just coincidentally, yeah,

Jay Johnson 12:15

did exist. So I thought I could do my act at all the clubs. And at the time, comedy clubs were just about to blossom, and then I would go out and I would be the guy that was holding up the corn flakes or whatever it was, you know, but yeah, to find this part that they wanted to a ventriloquist and, and I mentioned this in the show, but it's really crucial to my life. Jay sandrich was the director, and he's the one that said this won't work for the cast unless it's a real ventriloquist, because they thought we'll just hire an actor and then give him a puppet and we'll loop in the voice, and that would have been much more difficult for anybody to act off of, you know. So Jay sandrich knew that it had to be done live as it was happening on the set with other actors, and that's when they started looking for an actual ventriloquist. So I'd benefited

Jeff Dwoskin 13:00

the story you tell in two and only it was basically like somebody had known who you were and then backed into the actual call for this character for this television show, which became so just amazing.

Jay Johnson 13:15

It was very funny, because it was an open call. And, you know, open calls and Daily Variety back at the time, you know, open call for ventriloquist. So anybody thought, I've heard the word, I think I'll go down an audition. A guy walked in before my general audition, and he had a guitar, and they said, Now, this is the part of the ventriloquist. I know, I know. But watch this. And he sang, he sang songs. So it was, it was quite the open call. I sort of had a fast track. Ultimately, the head of casting for ABC had seen my work at a club that I was working the horn, and so when it finally got to that last final, will the network let you do it? It was, that was actually the easiest part.

Jeff Dwoskin 13:53

So, but that's not why I got, got you the audition in the first place. Yeah, no, no, everybody.

Jay Johnson 13:58

I had a contract that it was for a dairy company, and I had created their hillsbury Doughboy, little mascot, and the idea was to tour that around and go to conventions and stuff like that, which I have a business degree from college, so that fit within what I could do. And I had that contract, so I saw this little audition in the in the paper, but I thought, really, I can't do that. I mean, I've got a another obligation. I'm like, really not free. But all my friends said, Oh, you gotta go. You gotta go, just with experience. Go. Once I got it, I convinced the milk company that they could hire me later, and we could still do the same thing. And then by the time I was ready to go after the first year of soap, they said, Yeah, we've moved on from that idea. So all right,

Jeff Dwoskin 14:39

well, they would have had the most famous ventriloquist ever.

Jay Johnson 14:44

It was something called frozen yogurt, and it did kind of have a peak in that it was everywhere. It wasn't anything new. So, you know, it would have been good for a year or two, maybe, maybe that long. Frozen Yogurt

Jeff Dwoskin 14:53

is one of those things that every now and then it just has a resurgence, and then they kind of disappear. Yeah. So were there any other ventriloquist contenders for soap other than you? At

Jay Johnson 15:06

the time? I didn't know about it, but yeah, every everybody that I have since known and and admired. Sammy King was a big he was a bit older than me, but he had gone in, and Jerry Lane had gone in. A lot of people had gone in, and I just happened to be the right age and the right look. That could be Richard Mulligan's son, the stepson for Mary. So in addition to all of that, whether you're great ventriloquist or not, I don't think they even judged on that level. They just said, this fits. He doesn't fall when he walks and, you know, so put him in. Yeah,

Jeff Dwoskin 15:37

you definitely look like you could be part of the family. Yeah, I did luck

Jay Johnson 15:41

out with that. And the originally, the character was just on for seven episodes, or maybe a total of 10, and the script of soap went to who killed Peter Campbell, who was my brother. And originally it was, it was Chuck and Bob who had killed Peter Campbell. So we got to that at the end of the first show, the first 13 and all the clues had been Chuck and Bob, but they said, you know, we've got a lot of meal pool, and we like this character, and we think it deserves her, so we're gonna find somebody else that killed Peter. And then I stayed for the rest of the four years, and they got concluded it was like Chester did it, but then they didn't write Chester out. He was went crazy. I mean, it got a little bit. They had to really kind of jump through a hoop to find the real killer. Well, they

Jeff Dwoskin 16:24

made the right choice, keeping you Well, I mean, I know you feel that way. I

Jay Johnson 16:28

definitely feel that way. And you know, all the time, I kept saying, all these characters would come on and they would have a storyline, and it would be real interesting. And I kept saying, Why don't they give Chuck and Bob a storyline? And every year I'd look back and say, Wait a minute, everybody had a storyline. When the story got told they were suddenly gone. You know, they said they were written out. So I kept thinking, don't give me a storyline. Just let me do the jokes and let me get through it.

Jeff Dwoskin 16:52

Yeah, you and the major are the only ones that never had an actual storyline focused on you outside of all the doings. Yeah, what I would meant earlier when I said, like, they made the right choice is, you know, when I started to rediscover so Chuck and Bob are, what is in my head? Like, I like, I mean, you picture the whole family, Richard Mulligan, all of the characters, Billy Crystal, but like you and at the time, would have said the puppet. But like, you know, I mean, yeah, no puppets, okay, yeah, I It's a very distinct visual. Chuck and Bob were so just, he just popped in, that anytime you just came in, did the thing, and then it was just so memorable. Well, it

Jay Johnson 17:30

just hadn't been done before. The other thing that hadn't been done before, except in horror films that were matinee films, ventriloquist usually live. He gets, if you get somebody on stage, then it's just a civilian, and you have jokes written and whatever, and you kind of use them. But if you get in a situation where you have actors the quality of Richard Mulligan and Ted was and Billy Crystal and Katherine Damon, and you put them in a script where they are scripted to react to what is happening to the puppet and the ventriloquist, it becomes so much more rich, and you can do so many more things. And the suspension of belief can be, can be played with, you know, and written for and written against. And so it really was a treat to be able to do that. And I learned so much from the actors on on the show. They were all Broadway, I mean, Richard Mulligan and Catherine Damon. It was great to be with them. It's

Jeff Dwoskin 18:20

amazing watching you chuck and Bob, and it's just how it's literally treated as another character on the show, yeah, and everyone else sees it that way too. As a comic, Bob gets all the best lines because always, Yeah, always. As a comic, you know, you get on stage and you can say certain things because you're on stage. It's sort of a version of of the reality and you're presenting things. But Bob was the guy who could just through you say anything in any situation. Yeah, no one in their right minds would ever actually say that

Jay Johnson 18:51

was a great device for Susan and all the writers, I think, to a degree, on the it was the story of two families, so the Campbells. I was the Campbell and it was the Tates. And the Tates had Vincent he owned for the first couple of years, was that kind of Greek course, that could comment on things and and because he was, you know, not really part of the family could say that. So I think they found the same thing at Bob on the on the other side, you know, he could kind of talk about everybody and not be blamed for it.

Jeff Dwoskin 19:18

For you, that must have been a hoot in some of the episodes I was re watching. I was I watched some of the Lynn moody episodes. I just talked to her. I just talked to Marla Pennington. So I was watching some, oh,

Jay Johnson 19:29

great people. We all just did an autograph. I've never downloaded those before. We just did an autograph show. And it was Marla and and Lynn and Salva guso and Dinah manoff. And because that was, we're now older than the guys were, you know, our parents that on the show were younger than us, you know, when we were doing the show. So that's just us around. Great to do.

Jeff Dwoskin 19:49

Was there anything in the script that Susan Harris wanted you to say where you're like, I can't say this. I mean, I'm sure we eventually did, like, where you're like, really, oh,

Jay Johnson 19:57

man, yeah, they got to just. Putting anything in the script, and occasionally. And I do remember there was one time when Billy was dating someone, and I think it was a girl, and he was supposed to be a gay character, and Bob says they were going off on a date, and Bob said, supposed to say, Well, I hope the broad brings a book, and that's a beast. Plosives are really tough for ventriloquist if you don't move, they don't go back clear. So I said to Susan, I said, Can't the girl take a magazine to Cincinnati? It'd be much easier. And I think she let me say that. But I said, in case you have to say that was a toughie. And the other was, I said, it'd be funny if I would be able to write bits for Chuck and Bob and submit them at the first of the year, and they would make their way into the into the show and sometimes therapy, much like I had written, sometimes they were much, much better with Susan's influence. But I said, Be funny. It was back when everybody was roller skating. I've been a speech. If Chuck and Bob are sitting behind the kitchen table and Chuck says, Okay, Bob, let's go. And I picked bob up, and Bob's got roller skates on, and we we kind of skate out the door. And they said, that's great. So when the script came back, the scene went like this, Chuck and Jody skate into the kitchen. Bob then skates into the kitchen after them. There's the scene, and then Billy and Chuck play cracked the whip and put Bob out the door. And I said, How are we going to do that? And they said, Well, you wrote it. I assume you knew how to do that. Now, mine was just a visual, you know. So I did find the guy who made Bob had a walking body. It was a body that fit Bob size, and if you put it on skates, it really did work. So it would skate about three feet before it fall over. So that's all they needed, but it worked out. But yeah, always a challenge. You know what he can and can't do. And that was the fun part as well.

Jeff Dwoskin 21:44

I think the most important question I could possibly ask you is, did they design the clothes for Bob and then make a chuck version, or design it for Chuck and then make a bob version? If I were to guess, I'd say they wanted the doll, the puppet, to look cute, so they made it for him, and then you had to deal with it, but that's just my guess. It's even

Jay Johnson 22:04

stranger than that. Eventually, of course, Bob's had clothes had to be made, but I'm pretty much a standard size, so they could buy off the rack, but they would find something they liked for Chuck, and then they would buy that same outfit, extra, extra extra large. So Bob's clothes were always huge, and then they would cut them down. So actually, Bob got the big clothes, I got the little clothes. Every time I'd see him in the wardrobe, I'd go, okay, that must be Bob's, because I could not fit into those. But yeah, that became a real thing. And I'm Judy Judy Taylor was the wardrobe person who just spent hours. Every button would be exactly the same. And they just, they were amazing, matching those costumes. After I left the show, the show was over, I thought, yeah, that'd be great. I'll do matching stuff. Well, no, I mean, my God, how many suits do I have? How many suits do I have to match? How many? Pretty soon, I thought, Bob will have his own, you know, his own thing. We won't match anymore. That's Chuck and Bob. So too hard to do.

Jeff Dwoskin 22:57

You mentioned it earlier about the book, but that was an interesting story you told in and the two and only, where you're like, oh, they obviously don't know anything about logism, because they named it. They didn't,

Jay Johnson 23:07

yeah, yeah, named it Bob, yeah. That's the whole point. They gave him a b word. And we both benefited by that. They didn't know what couldn't be done. And so that allowed me to do more than what they would have let me do, if that makes any sense, it was really limited by the fact that one time I was at the bar, and I think the script said that Chuck was supposed to go over and pick up a drink and go away or something. I thought I should talk like an actor. So an actor says, you know, I don't think Chuck would drink. So going up to the bar, I don't think Chuck drinks. He's just straight guy. Bob might drink, but Chuck doesn't drink. And they said that. And people said, Well, no, Chuck does anything we write. So I said, Well, here's the deal. I'm holding, Bob, I can't pick up the dream. They went, Oh, in that case, you don't have to. So there are certain things that I couldn't do, but, you know, I had to just say, can't do it. Both hands are tied up. So I got good at working left handed. If I was doing Bob with my right hand, I could do a lot of stuff with my left. That's

Jeff Dwoskin 23:59

really cool. So, I mean, they must have had so much fun writing for you, especially when they decided to not make you the murderer. Oh

Jay Johnson 24:06

yeah, oh yeah. Then it was all games are off. Everything was great. I do remember a lot of what I got to do was really thanks to Jay Sanders, and I think I'm almost every day for what I learned from him. Later, when we went to Broadway, he was an investor at our show, and he was very supportive, and just became a really, really good friend toward the end of our lives, or his life, it would say, Chuck and Bob and Danny are sitting at the couch in walks bird who says whatever it was. And instead of just letting that go, Jay would say, Jay sandrich would say, what are you and Bob and Danny doing? And that's what I know. He says, Well, I see we maybe could play a, maybe playing a game. Okay, so eventually they get to the prop department, they bring checkers, and we're going to play checkers. Okay, that's, that's going to but then he went one more step, and he said, Okay, here's what I want. Danny makes a move, and Bob goes, Uh, no, no. That's, that's terrible. That's terrible. Yeah. So he takes it back, and then Danny makes another move, and Bob goes, Oh, really bad, really bad move. Don't do that. Danny takes it back, and then he makes a move with the checker. And Bob goes, fantastic. And then chuck jumps. Five people, click, click, click, click, he wins. It was the perfect thing to take advantage of everybody's character. And it was, you know, just an ad lib basically, by the director. Great piece of business. That's

Jeff Dwoskin 25:19

awesome. Sorry to interrupt. Have to take a quick break. I do want to thank everyone for their support of the sponsors. When you support the sponsors, you're supporting us here at Classic conversations, and that's how we keep the lights on. And now back to my amazing conversation with Jay Johnson. Were you aware of all the controversy? And Simon, I'm sure you were aware of it. But like, what was it like on set? Did it really impact anybody doing the show? You guys just did your thing? Yeah, not

Jay Johnson 25:47

too much on set, I'd been brought out to LA by a personal manager who was Andy Griffiths manager, and he was Frankie Avalon manager, and he was Jim neighbors manager, and he was really big stuff. He didn't know. I mean, I went to an open call. And so I got the part, and pretty much called up my manager said, You know what? I got this part. And he said, Oh my God, that show never make it. Oh my god, it's, it's got a gay guy, it's got a priest that's doing this. It's got any and he mentioned all the things that were controversial about the show, and just said, I wouldn't. And I said, Well, I'm going to run with it and see what I'm going to do. I wasn't with that manager after the first year of the of soap. So, you know, he went on and everything, but yeah, at the opening of soap that night it aired, my character was on show number seven, so I wasn't in the first six shows. So the first pilot comes on the air, and they had a big party at Bob Seagrams house, he played Danny, played Jody's love interest. Anyway. Great House over in at Beverly Hills. Television's everywhere, and we watched the pilot. Now, the pilot of soap was originally an hour, so it was actually 230 minute episodes, and the first half hour was just really setting up what you're going to see, and the second half hour anyway. So they shared the first hour, and we all thought, wow, I don't know if you get a sense of what the show's gonna be or not. And immediately it cut to Jerry Dunphy with a priest, a rabbi and a Christian preacher, and he's saying, okay, you've seen it. What do you think? And all these religious people had an opinion about the show, and everybody's got to having a drink and kind of not pay attention that suddenly we're all riveted to, like, wait, wait, wait, wait, did they not understand this is a comedy, and we were really concerned. It was like, do they not is are they typical of everybody? You know? The priest was saying, Well, I don't know. The priest character is this? And the rabbi was saying, well, we're not sure about this. And, well, it wasn't as bad as I thought. Yeah, it was just surreal. We couldn't talk to the press. Couldn't there was no social media. So you can do anything like that, but we just do your job and don't talk to anybody, and we'll see if we can get through this. And we did do a degree.

Jeff Dwoskin 27:49

It's amazing when there could be so much chatter and all that. And when you're talking about it, you're talking about a time decades before the idea of social media even existed. Oh yeah, but somehow there were times where we could still send the Raven or whatever and get the, get the word out,

Jay Johnson 28:06

that's right, it could be very well controlled, you know, because it all came from the publicity department or whatever. But when I got to Broadway, it was we did off Broadway in 2004 I guess. And as we're changing to Broadway, I said, Maybe we should have a, maybe we should have a website for the show. And all the people just said, Oh, I don't even know what that is. Are you kidding me? Website? Wait, wait a minute, you know? I said, Well, there's a lot of people out there that that criticize shows, and they're critics, and they people listen to them. You know, by the time we were actually to Broadway, they were begging for a website. So

Jeff Dwoskin 28:35

we did it. There was a lot of shock when the show ended, right? So, because, yeah, literally pulled the rug out from underneath. You guys there

Jay Johnson 28:43

what I thought we were gearing up for. There had been a lot of talk that instead of a half hour show, it should be an hour show. They could do more characters. And since the scenes were kind of interchangeable, the arc was within the scene. And then that scene arced several shows down the way and everything. So it really did fit for being able to shoot a show like that. And we also okay where they have to renegotiate, we'll have to figure out things. And now things are different than when we started, and we were all set for them to call and say, Okay, we're in our show. And they called and say, We don't exist. It was such a shock. Nobody got to say goodbye to everybody. Nobody like to say, I think they ended with Jessica facing a firing squad. I don't even know it was like the Ultimate Cliffhanger. That was never a result.

Jeff Dwoskin 29:24

It's just a bummer, I mean, to not have closure, because I'm you're a family at that point.

Jay Johnson 29:29

Absolutely, there was a lot of talk about, after that happened, that maybe they would do a theater release of the final episode, you know. So this is all going to wrap it all up, and this is what happened and they talked about that for several years, never really did happen. My understanding is that because of the controversy, they were not able to make as much off the spots as they might have been had, had we just been a, you know, a cheers or a mash or something. So our rates were down and low, and we were a very expensive. Of show to do. We had 14 regular cast members, a couple of guest members, and three standing sets that all week long were there. They didn't put up and take them down. So I think there was really just finances that eventually got to us. And there was no back end, you know. There was no let's stream it for a while, you know. So really, it really a shock. I did some more television later. Never anything that ran that long, but soap is really the most fun you can have. You know, just going down and doing your thing.

Jeff Dwoskin 30:28

You made the rounds after, give me a break. Yeah,

Jay Johnson 30:31

that was an experience that was now, I'm blanking on the star's name, but she was in a spade, in a way. She was tough. Give me a break. She was tough. I was a little guy with a puppet, so he wasn't sure I shouldn't be there. Now, Carter. Now Carter absolutely got it. I know it's my brain trying to forget. But there was a show we did, and I actually paid a ventriloquist on a show called Broken badges, which was a Stephen Cannell show, lots of chases, lots of second shots and stunts. And my character was a cop that wanted to get off the force with a mental disability so I could get full pay. So I had this puppet that I would drag everywhere and make everybody do the puppet, pretty much like Chuck and Bob, but I was trying to get off the force and but in the meantime, this cop had a very violent timber and got into fights, and that was a great time. That was a fun show to do it. It didn't last more than half the season, I think, but it was good at a fun time. So,

Jeff Dwoskin 31:26

all right, so you're, you're being typecast as a as a eventual quest, yeah,

Jay Johnson 31:31

if there's a script that says, and with a puppet, he walks in, I get the call before that script is even duplicated. I kept saying, Well, you know, I can still play other things, you know,

Jeff Dwoskin 31:40

are they still calling you, or now, are they looking for a Jay Johnson type? I

Jay Johnson 31:44

think it's Jay Johnson type. I don't know. It's been so long since I've gone to a call. And now I guess that most auditions are done your your tape, right? You have a little studio at your house and you send me the tape. Yeah, I just, if you don't have to drive, you know, hour and a half over to some little studio and say, I love this. I don't know how to deal with show business, the Jay Johnson type. Now what is it? It's get me Jay Johnson type. Get me Jay Johnson. And who's Jay Johnson? Is that the three steps?

Jeff Dwoskin 32:14

Yeah, a little reunion on empty nest.

Jay Johnson 32:17

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't know. I hope this story's interesting to me. It was, but empty nest. I'm coming back. There's Dinah, there's rich Richard, great. Same producers. Everything very familiar, but that scene that I did, Christy McNichol played a police officer, and she had a partner. They were responding to a domestic dispute. Guy and a girl were yelling in the apartment, they knock on the door. Hey, hey, open up. Open up. Open up. And when they open up. It's me and a girl puppet, and we're the domestic dispute, and it just gets crazy after that, right? Well, they didn't want the audience to see the set before they opened the door on camera, so they put big, big black curtain down in front of the audience, and then we shot the scene. And it got to the point where they opened the door and always in rehearsal, all the writers, all the crew, would just break up when they realized that's what happened, and I'm ready for it, and pushing into that laugh, and they open the door, and it is, it's not just crickets. It is church silent. And so, okay, all right, all right. So we get to the first line, and I'm leaning into, I think it was, what's going on here. And I said, Well, I was in Vegas. I was drunk. I don't know it'd be just nothing. Got to the end of the scene and there was not a not a smile, there was nothing. And I'm thinking, oh my god, I remember these producers. And the next call will be to the set, and I will be gone immediately. Immediately the phone rang, and I went, Okay, that's it. And they said, Jay, phone for you. And I went, Okay, so walk over, and it's Dinah manoff, who's called from her dress group. She's watched it on the on the television, and she said, I don't know. I don't know it's funny, and I just don't know what happened. So after a little bit, they found out that when they dropped the curtain for the audience, they had pulled the plug on all the monitors so that people were sitting in darkness, barely able to hear anything, and couldn't react, and they'd be very quiet, because if they could hear they had to be very quiet. Finally, when they realized that, okay, we'll have to let them see the scene, they we got good laughs. But I was sure I was gone, you know, I'm sure that was

Jeff Dwoskin 34:14

it. That is hilarious. Actually, that is really funny. I Yeah, well, at least good thing. They figured it out.

Jay Johnson 34:19

Oh my god, yeah. Usually they figured those things out after you're home, you know they're gonna call Hey. Well, you should have stayed

Jeff Dwoskin 34:27

around Jay Johnson's entire career went down the Tuesday because someone forgot to plug in. Absolutely,

Jay Johnson 34:31

absolutely. Well, you know that that is a story that I tell in the two and only about being on soap and the sound department telling me that for some reason, I'm not recording well. And there's a big thing about whether ventriloquism can be recorded, you know, it's like a duck quack. Can it, you know? And there's great, you know, minds of science and sound going well now, you know, if the ambience is different, it might not be able to hit a micro and they found out that when I was speaking, they were turning the mic to me, and when Bob. Speaking, they were turning the mic to Bob, and that was the difference in the drop. And when they finally found that out, that was great. It was a great compliment to me, but it was not a great sound. It

Jeff Dwoskin 35:10

is the ultimate compliment, right? You were doing so good that they thought Bob was real, real enough, yeah, that they miked him

Jay Johnson 35:19

Absolutely. Also where we go out and do a local promotion or something at a local station, they always thought it was very funny to give me a little love on my lapel and then put a live on Bob, and only the sound guys who see it. And I said, we can do that. I said, not very mean. People are going to get that. And I said, the other thing too is I'm going to forget and I'm going to put Bob in the suitcase, and I'll be home with an $800 lot of their microphone, and you'll be looking for it. So, yeah, they finally, usually took my advice and either made sure it was taken off or didn't do it.

Jeff Dwoskin 35:49

It is funny. It'd be funny to have done traveled with, like, just a fake one that you could put on him. You know,

Jay Johnson 35:54

I never thought of that. I should have. I should have Willie Tiger here, ventriloquis, friend of mine. He always works with two microphones, one for him and one for Lester. And I always thought that was really, that was really clever and wonderful. However, I always felt like with my characters, I couldn't the mic was in the way, and I make them go forward, or they would get lost in it. And I thought, for that one joke, I'd rather them forget there's a mic, not point it out.

Jeff Dwoskin 36:18

Right, right, right. You were on Dave's world. I was on Dave's world. The amazing Harry Anderson. Harry

Jay Johnson 36:25

answer was my best friend and godfather to my kids. I was godfather to his kids. We had a production company at the time, which was actually on that lot. I was around for most of the Dave's world. I think I did one or two episodes just as a character. But good times, fun times, I actually had to do a duck voice for somebody once in the set, you know, they said, you do a duck. And I go, yeah, do a duck. So occasionally I'll get a residual, residual from Dave's world. That's, uh, that episode. And I go, Yeah, duck. Voice, quack, quack.

Jeff Dwoskin 36:55

I loved him on Cheers. I mean, you know, Night Court, obviously, it always cracked me up the character on Night Court that he got the job because he was the only one home on a Sunday. I just love that whole premise. Yeah,

Jay Johnson 37:06

Night Court for Harry, right? Ho wiggy wrote that and created it. And at one point in the pilot, Judge stone is listening in his headset, and the DA comes up, or somebody comes up and says, I'm so glad I'm with you, or whatever. And he takes it off and he said, you know, he talks about what he's listening to, he says, I have every album that Mel Torme ever recorded, and for Rhino work, it was just a joke, but Harry was a huge fan of Mel Torme. Instead of a joke, it became a running gag, and Mel eventually was on the show, and Harry got to know Mel really, really well, and they became buds. And so Harry wouldn't let it be just a joke. He made it become a character study of the judge.

Jeff Dwoskin 37:46

It's one of, like, the most memorable things, like, it's, it definitely sticks out. I remember, like some there was an episode, I think, where there was a scalper and they had the meltor,

Jay Johnson 37:56

Harry, literally, the minute I met Harry, he was a great, wonderful con man and magician. And for simerson, I fulfilled the role of Roper and first banana really well. I mean, because I'm a straight guy, a straight guy to a puppet, so I might as well be a straight guy to a COVID. One time, Harry says, mill has invited us both to the Playboy Mansion. And I said, Well, I've never been he said, Well, we have to go. Have to go. So we did. So we go to Mel's house, and we get in this car and we go over to the Playboy Mansion. We get in and it's a Monday film Night, and they're going to film, are they going to screen Night Court, which was a movie in the 30s or something, just because of Harry and the game for all these people that Chuck McCann and Ray Anthony and all these people, some minor character would rock across the screen. They'd go, oh, that's Ralph swanswati. He he did this, this, this, this the first one in to name that guy's credits. You know, got some sort of thing. Harry had a lot of Maltese Falcons because he had bought a lot of them. And then he got to Night Court, and he didn't want them to have one of his after the first year. So, so So Warner Brothers went to props and they found a a Maltese Falcon. Happened to be the real Maltese Falcon. I mean, I don't remember they made, but that was the real one for the real mold. So he very cleverly traded that one for one of his. And so he had the real one, and they had the phony one, and he gave, I think he had it cast, and gave one to Mel. I think that's what it was. So Mel brought his Maltese Falcon, and he said, HEF Babe, you have to see what my my man Harry gave her look at this. He put that in the Maltese Falcon, and Hefner looks at it for a minute. Goes, yeah, yeah. Hold on. Hold on. And he goes to the house, comes back with another Maltese Falcon that was probably from the same mold. And then they're saying, Well, I think this one is this. It became the real life of the real baltis Fauci. You know? It's like, who has the real one? I think it's Harry. Oh, I think it's you Hefner. That was just one of the times Harry and I got to hang out and do some cool things. That's

Jeff Dwoskin 39:52

awesome. It must have been a joy being besties with him. Yeah. Oh

Jay Johnson 39:56

yeah, yeah. It really took me back when, when we lost Harry. We lost a. A gym.

Jeff Dwoskin 40:00

Yeah, he was a gem, for sure. He was when certain people pass, it's like, it feels different than when others and needs. Definitely, it was one of those people you're

Jay Johnson 40:08

like, yeah, yeah. Just way too soon, he kind of thought he never would. He was not destined to live a long time. I don't know why he thought that his mother lived longer than he did, but I don't know anyway. Still think about him all the time. Back to have a dog named Harry, just so I can say his name all the time. Harry and Boo. Harry and Boo. That's right, all

Jeff Dwoskin 40:27

right. Chuck and Bob, 70s show, he revived the character.

Jay Johnson 40:31

Oh yeah. Oh God, reprised that role. Yeah? With with Rod Roddy doing the voice. Yeah. Rod Roddy did tune in next week to see if Chuck and Bob this? Yeah, yeah. Loved rod

Jeff Dwoskin 40:41

that must have been a hoot. When did you start putting together your Broadway show, the two and only and like, I mean, you're always working on it, because it was a lot of your life story. So, yeah,

Jay Johnson 40:50

it really was. I'm trying to think of the year maybe around 2001 or so. I was doing a lot of corporate shows. I became king of the corporate circuit. And till 2008 that was a that was a huge business, and until everything got to fall apart. So I was doing that, and it was really great, but it was theater and a banquet kind of stuff. And I really always drooled about doing something on a stage that was made for a show that people come to see, that have the right lights, the right sound and everything. And I did a benefit. And at the benefit was Paul crap, who had played sunny man on it's a living and Murphy cross, who was an actress dancer, and they had produced the show. And they said, Wow, you know, of all the people in the show, everybody was talking about you, and then the character, we think you should do a one man show. And I said, Oh, my God, I I've wanted to do that all my life, but it's never gone anywhere, because people say you should do it, and I do all I can, but I'm not a producer, whatever. So they said, I think we can help you. So indeed, they were, they were good to their word. For the next year or so, we would meet and just talk. I'd show them the characters that I had. I would tell stories kind of not like what I'm doing now, and Murphy would take a bunch of notes. And finally, after a year, they said, Well, we've got all these notes. We've met all this what does it take to make the show? And I jokingly said, I'm a deadline guy, so I think that somebody's gonna say, we have a theater in two weeks. You better be ready. And so about an hour later, Murphy called, she said, Well, we have a theater in five weeks, so you better be ready. And I did one of those actors panics like, oh, boy, did I just blow it. Happened to be on a cruise ship and took all of all of Murphy's notes about all the stories and characters I had, and just being alone and scared, they sort of showed me an order, you know, and a way to arrange them and a way to tell them. And that pretty much became the show. I mean, we refined it and helped it and added it, but got back, did the show at the white fire, and New York came in, and we were off to New York. So it happened pretty fast after that, but thanks to Murphy and Paul, they were the ones that actually followed through on something that they said you should do it, and we'll help you. Still, my best friends,

Jeff Dwoskin 42:58

awesome and Tony Award winner. You won a Tony Award beating out. Do you remember who you beat out? I know. Do you remember?

Jay Johnson 43:06

Yes, I do. It was Kiki and herb. Yep, alive on Broadway. Alive on Broadway, same theater, and I think we followed them in, actually, that same year, we followed that show. They were sitting right behind us in the Tonys, and so it was a little bit uncomfortable to who they got a call. Yeah, kick in herb. I never saw the show, but the sound guy that I, that I actually took on tour after Broadway, was the sound guy for them. So I guess I have a connection to kick in herb, even if I didn't know that was big

Jeff Dwoskin 43:32

deal. You're the first ventriloquist ever to win. And there was a real special award that they give, yeah,

Jay Johnson 43:37

and they're not giving it, they don't give it all the time. Billy Crystal actually won the same Award Best special theatrical event two years before me, for the 600

Jeff Dwoskin 43:45

Sundays. Yeah, 700 700 it was originally 600 then he added that, well,

Jay Johnson 43:50

it's gone up. You know, with inflation, you have to, yeah, exactly. Billy knows that he's a good businessman. I have a theory that the last person to get that particular category was Liza Minnelli, and she did kind of a one lady concert on Broadway, and they submitted it for that. And of course, she won. Well, if your best special theatrical event, that means you're not going to be able to nominate the writers or the choreographers or the directors or and she had the best in the business. She had everybody from the directors to the to the music people. So they got shut out of being nominated, if not winning. And so I think they kind of backed off and said it's got to be something different than it's got to be a special event, not just somebody bringing their act, so it'll come back someday. But yeah, it's a great award, a real shock. Didn't think it would happen. Didn't even think about that. Just glad to be there.

Jeff Dwoskin 44:43

It was fun watching you accepting the award. Even the guy who presented you was pretty hilarious. Oh, he's

Jay Johnson 44:50

Susie. Susie Izard now, but Eddie Izzard. Oh, my God, and that was the thing. We were like, six rows from stage in Radio City, Music Hall. They don't tell you what. What order it's going to be. There's no program. You just sit in there and tell you know, you hear your name. And every time someone would come on, we kind of perk up and go, Well, this could be it. We gotta, you know, maybe they're okay. It's not it, not it. And finally, I'm a huge fan of Susie Eddie Israel, and she came on stage, he, at the time, I guess, came on stage. And both my wife and I said, Oh my God, we are seven rows from, from Eddie Izzard. Oh, my God, look at him right there. He's just, I could almost touch him. And then he goes and for the best special. And we realized that was our category, and now we have to pull up. We have to be, you know, we have to be award award participants, rather than just fans. And so I got backstage, and I told him how much I appreciate him. And he said, Yeah. He said, my publicist said you were, you were destined to win, but probably wouldn't. I did. I did.

Jeff Dwoskin 45:47

Yeah, great night, great night. Way to circumvent Destiny there.

Jay Johnson 45:50

Yeah, exactly.

Jeff Dwoskin 45:51

I watched, like I said, I watched, I watched the whole thing. It's two hours. It's great. And you definitely arrange those cards, right? Yeah, pays off later, or at the end, it's, yeah, it's really, really, really great.

Jay Johnson 46:05

Sometimes things just, if you're going in with with an open mind, they kind of arrange themselves as we would put things together this story. In this story, you would see an arc to that story. You know, if I'm talking about the old apprentices for Delphi, when a ventriloquist had to learn and and do, and then my mentor art saving, there was a definite link. And so there was an arc. And so things kept tying up in the show that I wish that I could start from page one and make that those arcs, but it wasn't the case in this show. They just happened as they should.

Jeff Dwoskin 46:38

One of the things that I was fascinated about in terms of trivia or tidbits. I don't think this is a spoiler, because it was an observation you made about something else. Was that the wizard from The Wizard of Oz was a ventriloquist. Oh, yeah.

Jay Johnson 46:52

I mean, we've all seen that, that film. And being a dyslexic, I don't read as fast as others, so my my library is not so big, but when I did find out that the original wizard in the book was a ventriloquist, a carnival ventriloquist, made sense, because the guy was from the carnival. He had, he had blown off course from his balloon at the Kansas State Fair, whatever it was. And that just put it all into perspective for me, because that was perfect. That's, that's the way ventriloquism was used as kind of a power to bring it over people and get them to believe in something that's not really real. Well,

Jeff Dwoskin 47:26

I do want to thank Marsha Posner Williams for introducing us. That was very sweet of her. Isn't

Jay Johnson 47:31

she the best I got to tell you, I've loved Marsha. She was maybe the first person that said hello to me on the set of soap because she's just so sweet, and we've been friends ever since. But if you go to Marsha and say none of the shop shows, shows were titled, so it's very hard to remember. And if you shot a show that was, that was the script was show 42 the scenes from 42 might have been put in. 4546 you know they the scenes were independent. They could put them everywhere on but if you go to Marsha, you see Marsha, what number show did we shoot where Bob says data, or Jody says this, and she'll go, that was show 36 she's amazing. She has wonderful person, very funny, but her mind is just amazing. So yeah, great love to Marsha, and I appreciate her putting us together.

Jeff Dwoskin 48:18

I appreciate her as well, and I appreciate you for all the joy you have brought to the world. You're

Jay Johnson 48:23

a sweetheart. Thank you. Thank you very much. I've had fun. I've had a great career. I've had a great time. And, you know, I can't imagine actually working for a living. You know, never was a waiter, never was a cab driver. So I, you know, beat the odds.

Jeff Dwoskin 48:36

I think, yeah, it's the only actor not to be a waiter. That's right.

Jay Johnson 48:41

That's right. Maybe I'm missing something, but you know, today I don't feel it. Bob

Jeff Dwoskin 48:46

waited tables, but not Not, not you. Bob is a

Jay Johnson 48:49

terrible waiter. Terrible, terrible, terrible waiter. Yeah, he's insulting. He demands 25% no matter what. So yeah,

Jeff Dwoskin 48:56

keeps catching on fire during the OPA. That's right. Yeah, Jay, thank you so much for hanging out with me. I really enjoyed it. Jeff,

Jay Johnson 49:04

what a great thing. And I love your show, and I'll be listening continually, and the best of wishes, because you you know what you're doing. Appreciate it.

Jeff Dwoskin 49:13

Thank you. All right, let's wait a

Jay Johnson 49:18

minute. Let me see Bob, do you want to say anything before we go, No, I don't even like Jeff. Oh, okay, that's fine. Well, I tried, I tried. Are you sure?

Jeff Dwoskin 49:26

I'm sure bite me. I tried my best. I'm honored. Oh, man, all right, how amazing was Jay Johnson? And didn't I didn't disappoint, did I? Huh? Who shows up? DN, but none other than Bob. I know it was incredible. Caught me off guard, but I was so honored, so amazing. Jay Johnson is such a great guy, so fun to talk to. All of my soap interviews were just a delight to talk to. This is wrapping up. We get started with Masha Posner Williams, Lynne moody, Dinah manoff, Marla Pennington, and now Jay Johnson, that's enough so for you to last a lifetime. Oh my goodness. All right. Well, I hope you enjoyed all of it. Go check out the two and only Jay's play you can stream it definitely worth watching. Really, really great, really great. Anyway, a huge thanks to Jay Johnson and Bob and Boo and Harry for making guest appearances and Marcia Posner Williams for being so amazing. So much fun. All right. Well, that just flew by well, and then a huge thanks to all of you for coming back week after week. It means the world to me, and I'll see you next time.

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