#230 Slapping the Bass with John Billings of The Monkees

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Jeff Dwoskin 0:28

All right coordinate thank you so much for that amazing introduction. You get this show going each and every week and this week was no exception. Welcome everybody to Episode 230 of classic conversations. As always, I am your host Jeff Dwoskin. Great to have you back for what's sure to be barber boom boom the bassist classic conversation of all time I have with me the world famous bass player John Billings. John is a touring bass player with such acts as and you may have heard of them Madonna summer Wynonna Judd, Rick Springfield and the Monkees. We're going to be slapping the bass in just a few seconds and in these few seconds I do want to remind everyone of episode 228 with an Gurvitz insider's look into Hollywood is a great one. Don't miss that one. But hey, we're here to talk monkeys. Rick Springfield Donna Summer with the amazing John A Billings. Buckle up this is a good one. Enjoy. All right everyone excited to introduce you to one of the finest musicians in all the world touring bass player. You may have seen him with Donna Summer when I when I no one no one did all that as well. I know what a Judd or 60s Pop superstars, though mancha is ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the show. John Billings. Thank you, Jeff. Thank you. You are welcome. Alright, so John, I'm a concert goer myself. And so I've seen let's say Elton John handful of times, seeing the Monkees a handful of times. Billy Joel. That's, that's sort of my lane. But I realize based on timing that you've been with the Monkees. I've likely seen you in concert twice. Putting you right at the top of the list of artists that I have seen perform live does you just shot right to the top.

John Billings 2:23

That's amazing. I love it. Alright, s

Jeff Dwoskin 2:25

let's let's fact check it real quick. With the monkeys 2014

John Billings 2:29

that the right timeframe? Actually, a little sooner than that. Okay. I'm

Jeff Dwoskin 2:32

saying but 2014 would fall into your time. Oh, yeah, totally. Yeah. Well, right. Since 2000, correct. Wow, that is so alright. So the 50th anniversary, the monkeys alive. This would have been Peter, Mike and Micky. It's a Fox Theater in Detroit, Michigan. I was here. Now I was You may recognize me. I was third row.

John Billings 2:50

I totally recognize me. I

Jeff Dwoskin 2:52

was a guy going.

John Billings 2:56

And you might recognize me I was the guy at the end of the show that was wrapping the guitar chords and carrying Micky's and Mike's bags to the bus. That was me. That's what I do.

Jeff Dwoskin 3:04

So that was the first time I saw you masterfully playing with the monkeys. Second time we flash forward. Now we're the monkeys present. The Mike and Micky show is June 14 2018. At the Copernicus center. Oh, wow. In Chicago. Okay. I thought I was really cool going to that concert because this was like Mike and Micky right first national tour as a duo. They're like, this is the first time just the two of them have toured. And so the Copernicus center is kind of a well, I mean, I'm from Detroit. So going to Chicago with my friend Aaron Rubin to see them. This was kind of a little off the beaten path, but that's what made it so cool. Like, oh, Mike and Micky. They're doing these Oh, yeah, these theaters. And so we went and saw that I didn't have third row, but it was amazing. And those two concerts were two of my favorite concerts. You serious? Yeah. That's cool. And I have the live album, which featured Oh, yeah. Which has you on it album? I literally mean vinyl.

John Billings 4:02

No, it has vinyl and I'm actually up in the mix which in all my entire bass playing career usually the bass player I'm usually mixed pretty low. I got some love on that record. Somebody turned me up and forgot to turn me back down. Oh, yeah, very happy about that. They Kristen Nesmith like you might have finally liked me after all these years.

Jeff Dwoskin 4:21

So that was a lot of fun. So that was those were two like the 50th anniversary was the first time I was ever like when I was at third row with the fox. I was like, you know, I'm a big boy. And I can make money. And I'm gonna buy big boy seats. I'm not gonna say your back. I'm not gonna say no. So

John Billings 4:38

it was a great tour because I'm the same age as the monkeys. The show came on TV. The week I was born. I was born September 16 1966. And the night that we did the 50th anniversary show in Hollywood was on my birthday. So it was that was a great run doing so much fun and it just felt I felt like I was like part of it. I guess I am a little bit more Oh boy. We took a little intermission and we had birthday cake in the back and was cool. It was a good night.

Jeff Dwoskin 5:05

I've seen Nesmith, I've met Mike and Micky a comic cons and I saw Mike Nesmith solo at the magic back theater and Michigan.

John Billings 5:14

Was he with the full band or something was beefing. Okay. It was something where he was doing the music, movies, movies of the mind or is it a live taping for that? Okay, that was an interesting band. I got to check them out in Nashville when they came through. It was Christian searcys Cersei Link has a band and for the most part, it's her band that's his band. And it was a good show was a good night was a really good gig.

Jeff Dwoskin 5:35

I did you come to working with the monkeys? We'll go back in time in a minute. But like, but let's let's start with the monkeys. And we'll get some origin later, John.

John Billings 5:45

My origin story I will go

Jeff Dwoskin 5:47

backwards. It gets really dark as you get into the base, but first monkeys let's stick with what sense where we Yeah,

John Billings 5:54

well, if you live in Nashville, and you're a professional musician, no matter what gig you got, you're playing in town, you're playing local gigs as well. So I played around town I played. I had regular gigs like a Wednesday night thing or Friday night thing. And I was playing at a bar in Nashville called the lipstick lounge really close to where I was living at the time. And I was working with this guitar player who to me was new in town. He probably been in town for a year or two. But it to me he was the new guy in town. His name was way neighbors and we were just chatting one night after the set. And he said yeah, go out. I work for the monkeys and Micky Dolenz and I was like I say the same thing that everybody says to me now they go the monkeys. They're still around. Yeah, they're still around. We got close on the gig. He knew that I had worked with other artists so I wasn't gonna go on the road and self destruct or anything like that or just freak out. I had played with other people I was playing with Donna Summer at that time and actually went on a journey as well. So I had a couple of the gigs but no one ever stays on the road. Donna Wynonna would go out for a weekend here. And we can there and I just bounce between the two. When the the dates would not bump into each other Micky lost his bass player at the time. And they were in a real does this, you know he passed away is a sudden thing they needed a guy. And so Wayne asked me if I go out and do a show. And I went out and did a gig in Tacoma, Washington, I had a blast. So much fun, I covered another gig for them. And at that point, he goes, Look, if you if you want to do this is just Micky, you know, it's Micky solo thing. If you want to do this as yours, you know, it just is really casual about the whole thing, because I know you got these other things that you're doing as well, they probably you know, there might be a pay discrepancy. He goes, but if you want to do this, too, you can do it. And that's what I did. I just stuck around and Wayne would let me kind of come and go at some times. And then eventually, you know, we lost Davey and then Micky, Mike And Peter, but that thing together and I think it was 2011 and Micky pulled his band in and all of a sudden, I'm in the monkeys. It's been like that ever since. That's

Jeff Dwoskin 7:44

amazing. So I know you said you were you were born when the show started. So did you when did you catch up with the music in your early years?

John Billings 7:52

Oh my god. I mean, really? I don't obviously I was born that week. So I didn't see the I was breastfeeding. I

Jeff Dwoskin 7:58

missed the whole thing. You were busy.

John Billings 8:01

I just remember being a kid. And ironically, I don't remember it. This is what I always still tell my my friends. I don't remember the monkeys being on TV at my house. They had to have been because there's only three channels and PBS. But I remember I'd go visit my cousins in Northern Virginia. And when I was up there, the monkeys I'd see the monkeys on TV and that's my memory of watching them was when we go to visit my cousins. I didn't really the music didn't occur now I'm young at that point. So I'm thinking about like ultra man, GI Joe and his goofy show called The monkey so not really digging into the music until later when I start playing. I always was a fan of songs like Pleasant Valley Sunday, the hits I always heard the hits on the radio I loved them I never thought beyond that. I wasn't like I was like a heavy metal guy and a funk guy I wanted to be Larry Graham and I wanted verdine White to quit Earth Wind Fire so I could be an Earth Wind and Fire that's where my brain was was. And then as I got older, I appreciated I started listening more to Zeplin and Beatles and and then of course right in there is is the monkeys all that classic monkey stuff. So when I came on board, I really kind of made us a second self discovery ever like oh yeah, this I forgot all about the songs. They're amazing. You'll learn that make that first Micky gig and the same thing happened I worked with for a year with Rick Springfield and when it when the the drummer called said Hey, we gotta fill in for the bass player. Got these dates you want to do these days? Yeah, I'd love to do it. And then I get off the phone. I'm like, what? Jesse's Girl. I remember Jessie's Girl and you try to like think of all the songs. So they sent me the cassette, which that tells you how long ago that was. And then you're like, holy cow. I know all these songs. These were all hits, and I didn't know half of them were Rick Springfield. And as the same with the monkeys. You know, I was like I didn't realize that that was a monkey's tune and I missed it all because I was spending too much time trying to be Gene Simmons and get in Van Halen.

Jeff Dwoskin 9:45

It is amazing though. Like when you look at any of these folks when you because I think what happens is you get inundated with the greatest hits and then you buy the Greatest Hits albums. I remember like The Monkees. The first I think I said I own was one of the very first was the best of them all. In case the greatest hits of the monkeys, whatever that compilation was that they had out. And so until you go deep cuts and start buying the albums and really start listening to all that you start to realize, oh, this was all but they had to the best writers and everything at the time that

John Billings 10:14

was not going to fail. That thing was not going to fail. You had some of the best players, the best writers, producers. I mean, it was a it's like Beyonce, it was not going to fail. It was all going to be a hit.

Jeff Dwoskin 10:25

Alright, so you mentioned you wanted to be like Gene Simmons and all that kind of stuff. So how did how did you know at what point in your life where you're like musics for me? I have to follow my dream of being a bass player all I know about bass just you know I don't have you throw out words. I'm not gonna say no, I might not like nod your head like audio bass. The most I've ever heard you know the movie. I love you man. Oh yeah, you gotta love it. There's like a slap in the bass. The bass Paul Yeah,

John Billings 10:54

I hear that like from everybody I'm always like, Oh man, but yeah slap at the base you are very funny sir. Yes. Yeah.

Jeff Dwoskin 11:02

That's one of the best scenes and slap in the bed. Oh,

John Billings 11:05

they're playing they're like trying to play rushed. Oh, that's awesome. And that was one of the things is like I was a huge you always a product of your environment. I love music. My dad was a frustrated musician. He had an Oregon he like I don't know if you remember the Lowry Oregon's these have Oregon stores. That's what I remember being a kid you you go to the Oregon store in places full of these Oregon's and you know, you push one button because things can take tinkering and change key do cook and you could play like a full song had a little beat box in it. My dad bought one of those and he very frustratingly played around the house and but he loved it. His father My grandfather was a was a musician. He used to play an Appalachian is in the foothills of Virginia when he was young before he had to get a job and support the family. I think it just jumped a generation and landed on me. And I used to play my grandfather's guitars I was just like, just really attracted to the sound of and how cool it was. And he would let me touch him and handle them. And leaping forward, I practice a little guitar and get my major chords going on. I got to sixth grade and realize that the orchestra kids got to get out of class in the middle of the day and go to the go to the trailer with the orchestra. Kids had to stay at a trailer. And I was like, where are they going? Are they going to orchestra I want to go to orchestra because I want to go to class. And so I went film The cello, the cello for years up into high school along the way. All my friends were playing music. They're all playing guitar couple buddies that were drummers I'm playing guitar and I'm like well, there's like everyone's playing guitar here. If I played bass, I could play with all these guys. I could do all their all the bands I could play for everybody. And so my 14th birthday dad gave me a bass got my brother guitar, I started listening to you as this I loved kiss and listen to Gene Simmons and playing along. I read music. So I buy a little I buy instructional books and song books and learn tunes. And you know, we had our little setup where the record player was upstairs in living room, which had to run down to the basement where the speakers are and my amp was so I'd start the vinyl, you know, put it up on the spindle and hit go and they would drop and then the arm had come down and I'd run and you know, fall down the stairs, pick the bass up and by the first hopefully, as I put it on the song started, if I screwed it up, I go back do it again, the record once I started to love the bass and it started exactly kind of how I thought it would go I started playing with different cats around the neighborhood and older kids which that was a big deal to play with the older kids because nobody played bass was the only one you found. I found my niche man. And then I got a job. I got a gob working at a theme park when I was 16 years old, called kings dominions, and rich just north of Richmond, Virginia, and is one of the things you know you work from spring through the summer into the fall. I had never had a job before. And all of a sudden, I was making money playing music. I played in a surf show. And I loved it. I was getting paid and do four or five shows a day, which now I'm like, it's awful for flashes. But when you're you know you're watching.

Jeff Dwoskin 13:57

Yeah,

John Billings 13:59

I'm driving like a long way to work and get to drive, you know, 3040 miles to work, which that was as weird as that sounds. That was cool. My parents were like, Yeah, I guess you're gonna have to drive yourself to work. You can go that far. You know, that kind of thing. It was exciting. I had gone to that park my whole life as a kid. And here's I was working there. And I'd stay after hours to sneak around prowl around the place and just had it was an amazing adventure. And that that did it that got its hooks firmly implanted in me getting a paycheck, working with better musicians and I am way better. I mean, these were they're all in college. They're all music school students. And I was a high schooler and I stayed there for three years and that that was it that screwed up the rest of my life. Well worth it when your

Jeff Dwoskin 14:37

parents and teachers I mean, you were like, my dream is Oh, yeah, to do

John Billings 14:41

all that. I want to play music and they would go Yeah, but here's what you're really going to do. You know it really. I remember the guy might tell my wife all the time. She just can't believe it happened. I remember my guidance counselor taking me when I was probably a junior in high school and going this music thing. It's not going to pan out you need to get a real you know, like a real vocation. And you know, for half a second, I thought about a few different options and avenues in which it always led back to same thing. I was making more money playing music as a kid than any of these other things that they were talking about me doing. And it was rough with my father and my mom and my, I'm sure my mom and dad were totally tortured. I know my dad was and I'm sure my mom was as well. They tolerated it. You know, they tolerated me going down that road, they tolerated the bad grades, they tolerated, they just kept thinking he's going to pull out of this at some point, you know, He's smart, he's going to figure it out. And, you know, meanwhile, all I'm doing is getting firmly more entrenched in my position, and I'm gonna just do this, this is all I'm going to do. And I think when I moved to California, when I was 20, that's when my parents finally said, Okay, this is what he's doing. And then they were like, my dad was in my corner. My dad and I weren't even speaking at that point. And then we're like, he's my biggest fan. He's helping me out in California and stand by the this is what ATM machines, this is how long it goes. And ideally, three ATM machines are fairly new. The national network of them is fairly new, and I would be hungry. And I would call my dad and go, I need I gotta eat. And I'd stand by that stupid ATM machine. You know, on Sunset or on Hollywood had a couple picked out that we're safe ish. And I would just put my card in the zero balance. Oh, dammit. Okay, wait a few minutes card in $40 Yes, I'm gonna eat take out 20 Leave the other 20

Jeff Dwoskin 16:20

Thanks. Good. Thank God 20 Get a fee of $5 Only half

John Billings 16:23

back then it was reasonable. And that all went away. But yeah, that when I left home, they realized how serious I was. And that was the thing that made them that make them it just you know, I'm a parent now and I've got a kid and film school and I'm like, that's what they're gonna do. And I can either get with it Get with the program or be on the other side of that. And I think that's what my mom my dad did and they have great they've been great my whole life with with music they believe they finally believe Well,

Jeff Dwoskin 16:46

good thing you didn't go out one day a mom and dad I'm gonna be a monkey. And they'd be like, lock him up.

John Billings 16:51

Lock him up. Actually,

Jeff Dwoskin 16:54

it's crazy. He's he's sorry to interrupt, have to take a quick break. Good time for you to run to the ATM, get some cash. Do you want to thank you for your support of the sponsors? When you support the sponsors? You're supporting us here at Classic conversations. And that's how we keep the lights on. And now back to my amazing conversation with John Billings. We're going to continue his journey so that's awesome. He worked at a theme park great oh yeah all the tilt the world Yeah. What's your favorite kiss song?

John Billings 17:24

Oh my god all of them I even like the disco kiss that's a trick

Jeff Dwoskin 17:28

question they answer was Detroit Rock City

John Billings 17:33

you know what I liked was uh, I still love I want to rock and roll all day. So guys, I love that song. And when it comes on now my kids know it. That's what's cool was writing down down the road in the car and came on the radio and my daughter started singing to my 17 year old and I was like, Yes, I did one thing right as a father

Jeff Dwoskin 17:50

if the song Beth comes out at just the right time to that can hit you pretty good. Oh, yes. Right in the same way drive from the cars. Yeah, well,

John Billings 17:59

I keep feeling like kiss fans, don't I maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I'm wrong. And they will point it out to me because they love the point shoot out to me, but I feel like Beth is kind of like the stepchild of kiss. I think it was it was pivotal for the career but I feel like real true kiss fans kind of look at Beth like, yeah, that's that song. You know, no one ever goes Beth. Oh, I love Beth until they hear a slow dance at the prom with it. I mean maybe I would guess if

Jeff Dwoskin 18:23

they don't talk about anything it's kiss meets the Phantom of the park. Yeah. I mean if you're gonna go down any any road that way.

John Billings 18:32

I mean, I've heard the other day Philip Schultz was he's in except he was playing he was doing a story Instagram story he had in the background he was dancing to I was made for love and you and I went that's a cool tune. I love that song and jeans playing cool bass and to my friends. I've never like never meant that to my like writing a minibike. You never admit that to your friends.

Jeff Dwoskin 18:55

Or you're in California. How do you add what's what was your first gig? What was your like your very first paid gig in California or just like in my my career in general.

John Billings 19:05

When was your California was eight long years of pretty much nothing. I did a lot of a lot of free everything. So I wouldn't call it a paid gig I will say that California did for me was I got to meet and work with a lot of heroes of mine. Growing up as exciting as that was the next day. I was like, I'm still broke. Still got no money I played with like cats and I listened to in the basement on that, you know, my drop down LP player. And it just didn't as much as it just stroked my ego. I didn't do anything for my career. But when I moved to Nashville in 1995, if I back up a little bit, I went to California, a couple of buddies of mine. Eventually we all got out to California. I'm from Richmond had a huge very rich musical community. Dave Matthews Band, the wooden brothers of the Fleck tones. Just amazing musicians came out of there everybody split in the course of a few years. So few of us went to LA few of us went to New York and a everybody else came to Nashville. So all of a sudden I'm in Los Angeles, like just wanting a gig or playing shitty gigs and just not not making any headway with a career and all my old buddies that moved to Nashville are coming to LA and they're playing all over the place. They're playing arena and they're playing at the universal amphitheatre and that there was a jazz club down the street for I lived in Redondo Beach that I couldn't even I had to pay to go if I wanted to go in that place. They wouldn't let me step anywhere near that place as a musician, and here I'm hanging out with all my pals from New York or some of them from Nashville and at some point I kind of went I screwed up. I chose poorly like Morpheus I chose the wrong pill with LA and as cool as the some of these experiences were the guys who went to Nashville this is like now this is 1992 94 Nashville. So he's got you got Garth Brooks and Tim McGraw. Everyone's making giant money countries huge and not that you have to be a country fan. You're working musician. You just play music. That's your only rule. I play music. You don't play country. I don't play rock and I'll play jet play music, all these casters going and gigging their asses off. They're on tours. They were doing demos during the week, they play on records, and I was working in a pawn shop going, What the hell have I done? I finally gotten sick of all that I got to that whole crisis point. Um, 2027 I just loaded up the car. And I moved to Nashville called actually the guy that I moved to LA with, had moved to Nashville and he was doing great. I called him and said, Can I move with you for a while and get settled out there. And I had taken a couple of trips out there to see some of my pals and I remember getting picked up at the airport, one of the guys one of the Wooten brothers, Joseph Wooten plays for Steve Miller Band, and he picks me up there. Courtney goes, Hey, do you want a gig while you're here? I got some I've got work for you. Yes, I absolutely do. And I'd be playing in Nashville. So I loaded up the car and 95 March 95. And I got here on a Friday night, by Sunday I had auditioned for and got a what was going to be a touring gig with this new country artist, but you know, this is 48 hours later, and that led to me working, rehearsing for and playing on record by a guy named Tom Brady seals. I played on a song or two and Rodney Crowl was a producer and at the time I didn't really know who Ratan Rodney was and now I'm like the first had ever worked with his Ronnie Crowl that's insane. And then this is in March in May. I was working for Donna Summer and I was in Brazil on a 12 show tour of Brazil. And it was on at that point it was just on I was working I finally I finally got to a place where that eight year is a time where I was just I felt like I was like somebody had turned off the spigot and I got to Nashville and it was wide open. I was working all the time I had gigs at play in town I I'm not tooting my horn because I just knew people it was a networking thing they called everybody I said hey, I'm moving to Nashville and they were literally like okay, so Thursday and I need you at this place and then next Saturday we need you this thing so I had gigs before I even got there and you know most people you gotta get to a town and you know the drill got to you like

Jeff Dwoskin 22:54

why didn't anyone just tell me while I was at the pawn shop maybe just call tax deeper the time maybe

John Billings 23:04

the break Hey, brick Yeah, you

Jeff Dwoskin 23:06

bring me on to Nashville the day unless

John Billings 23:10

they you know, they did come to town and I didn't go and hang out with them I'd be hanging out at I remember I went to the Tonight Show with with Carson because my friend was playing in the Flintstones and I was like I'm a Johnny Carson Show. This is crazy. And then I'm at the Arsenio Hall Show with this guy and then at the university I would go and hang out with them and all every single one of them go man you really need to think about I don't know what you're doing in LA but at Nationals hoppin and it's just one of those things you've been there so long I don't know about you but you put in time and this is why it's so hard to change course you just like oh maybe if I just wait one

Jeff Dwoskin 23:42

more month right I eat two inches from the gold where you are and that's

John Billings 23:47

that carrot was always on the stick and I was just just out of reach so I finally I would like to say that made a tactical move and move to Nashville. It was really just a move in sheer desperation of like I've just given up on I quit playing bass for time period there. I just worked at the pawn shop made money so I could move no plan no nothing. It's just I get I surrender. I surrender la you got me and then I got to Nashville and it was like you know the lights came up the choir the heavenly choir. Oh, and everything's just started happening. It was a such a blessing man. Really

Jeff Dwoskin 24:17

right because we are decades away from working at a pawn shop being a viable reality TV star gig.

John Billings 24:24

It was a great, horrible experience, but a great experience. Like it's the stuff I learned the things I saw

Jeff Dwoskin 24:29

Craziest thing someone tried to pawn. I mean, everything was

John Billings 24:33

crazy. A Tiffany chandelier, an attorney who will remain nameless was having some this is way before this is 1990s. Three a way before me to movement, an attorney who actually helped create palimony way back when he was the he was the attorney for the wife of John Lee Marvin. So the guy who represented Lee Marvins wife was was divorcing him. That guy came in the poncho up and brought in a Tiffany chandelier and wanted to get some money. And we were like, what do we do with this? We're not going to give you what you need. We were nice to you. We didn't do you didn't try to be a dick. You just said, you need to go see like somebody else and estate salesperson. He's like, Nah, I need money today. And like, yeah, you know what the money you need is not the money that we can give and no hard feelings keep going. I wouldn't say there were some of my heroes but guys that I really really respected, walked in the door and needed money needed loans. And that was really eye opening. One cat had, he had a regular TV show that he played bass on, it was a nightly shows. And he was he was so he's a weekly working network musician. He's playing on a network show, you know, five days a week, Monday through Friday. And he came in to get alone because he needed some media, some scratch to get through the week. And I was just kind of like, if he's having trouble. If it's hard for him to make ends meet then how do I have any chance at all of doing anything here? Well, you

Jeff Dwoskin 25:54

also don't know what his budget is right? He might have been blown out on some people mismanagement.

John Billings 25:58

Yeah, yes, exactly. Money mismanagement is probably the number one reasons that people need that kind of fast cash, drugs and alcohol far behind. But people just mismanaged money. So simple thing. It's not like they're criminals. They just they gotta pay a bill today or someone's getting cut off. What do I do?

Jeff Dwoskin 26:18

Alright, so Donna Summer queen of discount. How long were you with Donna? Summer again?

John Billings 26:22

16 years, starting started with her 95. And I mean, I don't count that last year because she was she was dealing with her cancer. And we didn't work at all. We played it. The last gig we played was in Beijing, China in the Forbidden City. And that was the last time I ever saw her. And she passed away. I think I feel like it was 13 months later. 12 a third and a total surprise. Yeah, it was that was that came out of left field because none of us knew she didn't tell anybody. No one knew a few a handful of her family knew I got a call from a guy the morning that she passed away. And he said it's about to hit the news. But she's gone. I thought he was kid. And I was like I said that's not funny. There's no part of that. That's, that's, that's hilarious. And he goes on being totally serious. I'm not supposed to say anything, but I'd rather you hear it from me than you hear from the news. So that was a drag real drag.

Jeff Dwoskin 27:08

Man over 17 years. It sounds like you probably had a lot of good time.

John Billings 27:13

Yeah, we did. We did some cool stuff together. We did a lot of fun gigs. A lot of crazy memories, a lot of good and bad memories. But that's everything you've ever done long enough at all times I've ever fallen on stage happened on her gig times that I made a huge idiot of myself that was on always on her gig. Because we're moving around all the time. So yeah, I had the distinct honor of having fallen on my back at Radio City Music Hall in front of was a rehearsal during the day but you know, it's just like Union crew guys all over the place in an orchestra is the orchestra behind us and yeah, horrible. Events always happened to me on that gig

Jeff Dwoskin 27:49

everyone's putting in money everyone's throwing five bucks. It makes it this is a show and as the one he's gonna really break something so these are predominantly then disco. Oh yeah, she was the queen of Senegal

John Billings 28:01

still is man she still she is not gotten alright here I'm making a statement on your show. You ready? Yeah comes highlight this point here because she has not gotten the props that she deserves to get she passed away and the usual ritual of like artists, labels releasing you know unheard works and best the usual the machine that works behind when somebody passes whether you hate it or not, it keeps that artists in your memory or collective memory and they bring stuff out like you know what the monkeys you know, we're gonna do a rereleases of this and that it kind of keeps it all alive and Donna didn't Donna did not get that for what reason? I don't know. And I've I've always felt like she deserves the biopic The good biopic not the Elton John biopic. She needs you know, we need books. Hello, we need a book. We've got it. Here's a beautiful part Brooklyn, her daughter Brooklyn is produced and CO directed a documentary that's being it's going to be out in Berlin Film Festival in here really soon. And that's thank God for that essence, Brooklyn, her daughter's involved. It'll be a really good real biography of her life. So I'm really happy about that. But I really wish the machine the music machine got behind what she did for us there end to end of rant rant free now,

Jeff Dwoskin 29:12

I appreciate the rant and I do appreciate it a good documentary over you know, Bohemian Rhapsody was another one. It felt good the first time and then the second time I watched it. I'm like, How did I sit through this the first

John Billings 29:24

time it the second time for me. And so he's on TV. You know, you're flipping channels. There's always a piece and I'll watch for 10 minutes and I feel like I did like I'm like you I love the first time I saw it. I was like, Yes, this is awesome. That moment when they're out in front of an Wembley audience and you're

Jeff Dwoskin 29:39

watching a match to the real Live Aid. It's insane how detailed they were. I

John Billings 29:42

really did an amazing job. But then it gets the more I see it parts of it gets so campy,

Jeff Dwoskin 29:46

I have a hard time watching it. Well, they change their own story.

John Billings 29:50

Well, you can do that when you make your own story. You can change it all you want.

Jeff Dwoskin 29:54

Just put things out of order. And so how many times would you say you played a car Arthur Park

John Billings 30:01

oh my god I mean I don't know many hundreds you know I wouldn't say 1000 But many hundreds to the point where like and this is not dissing anybody this all musicians do this all anybody who's entertainment when you've got a thing that you do all the time if you're in if you're reading if you're in a show a Broadway show you're performing you're saying your lines but in the back of your mind like God I wonder what what restaurant after the show I think I should go to that place down the street and oh, you know what I gotta I gotta do that project for that guy totally forgot about that you know, because the book is melting and oh yeah, it's my kids birthday next week I forgot Oh, you do it so often that you can you can drift a little bit you still deliver your thing you still do your thing but you drift you definitely drift a little

Jeff Dwoskin 30:42

drift away so in terms of either Rick Springfield monkeys Donna Summer thing on that topic do you guys ever kind of it's 17 years 10 years with the monkeys I don't know how many with wreck by like do you ever decide I let's change it up or purposely like this move these around? Let's do these and then these and like maybe give it a different energy and and does the energy the crowd change that yeah, like you know if they're like so into something do you like all of a sudden like become alive differently?

John Billings 31:12

It changes everything the dynamic of the crowd changes everything. A great example of that I mean with Rick only was with Rick for a year but we worked all the time. Rick Springfield is a hardest working cat you get out you go out on a plane is fly dates every day and you go back you rest a couple of days at home you do it again the next weekend and his fans are ravenous, ravenous with these women would tear the clothes off his body today and he's like 71 or something But Donna I remember Donna we would if you played for ticketed audience, you know, you got to ticket it on it's out there. They paid money. It's like when you came to see the monkeys you spent that money, I'll get that third row seat. This is going to be experienced for me, we come out and you give as much as you're getting, you know, admit that you're you're clapping, you're right, you're even you just looking at us making eye contact is an engagement. Donna would do corporate events, which are great money for her dough in her pocket keeps the band work. And I'm sure those things pay more corporate to pay way more than a ticketed show will. So it's good to pad your schedule with some corporates just to keep the nice cash flow coming through. But then now you're playing for people who did not pay to see you play half the room is excited the other half wishes that they had gotten the Charlie Daniels band or something or something else other than a disco van. And they sit in the back and they're talking and they're you know, they don't really pay attention and Wow, talk about bringing everybody on stage is feeling we're feeling every song like this is never going to and you're looking at your watch like oh my god, kinda 30 minutes to go half the room is over there talking and chatting away and the other half there's the five in the front that excited. Yeah, torpedoes, the whole thing.

Jeff Dwoskin 32:43

I gotta say, this is enlightening to me on a level I never expected meaning. I'm a stand up comedian. And so I've always in the back of my head said, Oh my God, I wish I was I could sing sings. I mean, it's like, you could just be up there singing, they don't have to listen to you saying they have to listen to me, like tell a joke. Because otherwise they won't laugh. They won't know what they heard but a song and they can just kind of they can just take it in and hearing you hear you right now. You're like every nightmare that a comedian would say you just said from your point of view. So I was like, Okay, I just reframed I'm ready frames.

John Billings 33:19

Oh, dude, I would go there was a song or two songs that fair all my other gigs except for when I was like in the middle days of LA when I was in a metal band you're in your whole job is to shake your hair as hard as possible and push your crotch and all the ladies faces as you're playing. It wasn't till I played with Donna, that Donna was like you and the guitar player out front on this song. And I want you to do this and do that. Hence the falling and come up to me at this point and do like that. And then you step back. And you know we had like I wouldn't call it choreography. But she wanted us out there during a couple of songs that were high energy, because she wanted to be a rocker. She was a total rocker. And so when we do like hot stuff, and once the other song we used to bad girls, she wanted the vibe to go through the roof. And there's nothing worse than doing that. And you step out to the edge of the stage and I had used to have long hair to flip my hair and I'd look make eye contact and you just see this arm crossed, maybe falling asleep not paying any attention. They don't really give it that you're up there. They have to be there because corporate said you got to come to the party.

Jeff Dwoskin 34:20

John, you're breaking you're crushing all my fantasies. Okay? So the comedian point of view of that is, is that you're you have an entire audience laughing and one guy in the front isn't. And that's all you can think about that. You see the same thing. I'm saying I never thought of it. I always love watches you like from your point of view, just like a bomb bomb. Hey, listen. I tell you like I was at a company event. And they had boys to men. This is an older crowd. So boys man's doing it. They got about two songs in and then probably about the third song. Everybody kind of rushed the stage in an exciting way. Yeah, well Look at the hurt that I had to create and to enjoy the show. And all of a sudden it was like boys to man was a different group. Yeah, I mean, the energy was so just right along the lines of what you're saying once there was that energy right there, and we weren't 30 feet away and roundtables eating desserts. The it just Yeah, I so Okay, I got it. I don't

John Billings 35:21

know it's the same if you if you're in your room and you're doing, you're doing your act in the room, and you're hitting these jokes, and you're getting a half response from everybody, you're not really they're not really wanting to be there. They're not engaged with you. You got that feeling like, now I've got to just watch my clock, I got to make it another five minutes or 10 minutes, and I gotta Well, why am I even here, this is a waste of time. But you got to get there to get that contract fulfilled it but then again, you go to another room where they're your people, they're there to see you and you got them and you're on and they're on. And there's that symbiotic thing happening between the audience and the performer. That's when you go out and you like you're going out and getting hookers at that point after the show. You're so excited. That's a good night.

Jeff Dwoskin 36:01

That is a good night. Oh, I almost I don't know why it didn't happen. I missed the call or something where I almost opened for Rick Springfield. Oh, really, as a comedian, not as not as a bass player. But we're, I don't even know if that's

John Billings 36:16

exactly what it sounds like when you would have to see it could have gone either way. Right? You would have here's, here's the facts, the facts would have been, you would at a sea of women in their late 30s 40s, early 50s that are looking at, they're waiting for that piece of steak that's going to walk out after you're set. And they're either going to like be very polite and nice and or they're going to tear you to shreds so that they can get him out there with his pecs and his abs and get some music going. You ever it could go either way.

Jeff Dwoskin 36:46

I have found that the worst possible scenario you can be in is an unexpected time gap between the audience and the person they actually came to see. We love you. We're gonna bring out Rick Springfield. Just a few minutes. But first, Jeff Dwoskin Yeah, it's gonna do comedy. You gotta love it. Rick's gonna be out. Pretty story.

John Billings 37:10

I know. You're just you see them all in 20 minutes, 20 minutes to go quick. They're all looking at each other. That's concerned look on their face. You know, like, what is this? What? What is this? Hap? What's going on? Good. That's a bad thing.

Jeff Dwoskin 37:23

Cool. All right. So keeping in line with the idea of kind of zoning and doing the same stuff over and over again. So tell me how excited you were then. Because this is during when the you were with the monkeys? Yeah, 50 years into the monkeys. They released good times. And now there's a whole album and a really good album. I was obsessed

John Billings 37:43

with this album, Schlessinger man killed it.

Jeff Dwoskin 37:47

A whole new album of stuff that you can just pepper in to the classics. And some of these were you could say it were right away classics. They fit right in. It sounded like an album they had just found. Yeah, right. Which I think except for the Davy Jones song, which was back, but you know, we'll give him a pass. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, that guy.

John Billings 38:10

We weren't involved. You know, whenever a producer comes in, outside producer, they always have their guy so we weren't involved in it at all, you know? And we're just like, I'm gonna how this is gonna work out and the Monkees Producer Live show producer. Andrew Sandoval was like, you know, he was kind of a little keep his cards close to his chest. He's like, it's going well, it's going well, it's going good. Like, what does that mean? I mean, I don't know. But when we heard it for the week, when he brought in tunes for us to learn like Oh, yo, here's a new song. She makes me laugh we gotta learn this for this thing. We got to do this tune to the hipster song birth of an accidental head. Yes. That I mean, you were like holy what happened? This is great. You almost like don't expect it to be good and you don't want that sound mean it's just that it's hard to come close to what was going on when this when they had the hit writers the hip producers hit play you know all that the machine behind them. And now all these years later, you kind of I don't know I hate to be a downer. You're just kind of like, here comes another guy is gonna come along and produce some music and it's

Jeff Dwoskin 39:05

gonna it could have been just us.

John Billings 39:09

Well, since I'm in currently employed by the Monkees,

Jeff Dwoskin 39:12

I'm not saying like I love knowing that I love them. Like I'm wearing a shirt or didn't anyone they say I'm not I'm just saying it's like it didn't have you know, this one was a magic that that one? Yeah. Yeah, that was wonderful. I'm not trying to take away and John is adamantly shooting me downstairs. But hey, but have Adams. You know what I mean? That this album had a much different impact than that. Or poulet, which were the later ones that came I think the only the earlier the other success that they had after the core was when the greatest hits the new Greatest Hits. That was then not which is great. I love that.

John Billings 39:51

We'd still play that team. We played every night played with Micky set. Every night we would do solo shows. Now I just gotta I gotta say Adam Schlesinger was a genius. He's the guy Was he came in and he didn't make an Adam Schlesinger record. You know, so many producers would come in and basically that's not bagging on timberland. But if timberland produced that record, it would sound like a timberland record. It wouldn't sound like the Monkees. It would sound like him. And Adam came in and he had some great writers submitting music. So he had great tunes to choose from. And he brought his players his ace guys in and basically like you said it he made it sound like a monkey's record. And he did a great job. There was such a good job.

Jeff Dwoskin 40:27

And the one you didn't mention that I also love a lot, which is Mike, Michael song. Me and Matt. Oh,

John Billings 40:34

yeah. And helped me out. It's Ben. Ben. Ben. Ben. Ben. Godfrey. Ben Gibberd. Yes, Ben, just a sweetest cat. And he performed that with us in Seattle. And man, what a moment that was. That was really cool. That was really cool. That is

Jeff Dwoskin 40:48

amazing. Sorry to interrupt, have to take a quick break. And we're back with John Billings. And the monkeys. So you've now Itza with Michael passing away? Well, Peter would have passed away to passed away on your watch, didn't they? Yeah, I didn't meet Davies. The only one I never met him. Okay, so Peter passed away. And then Michael Blatt, how was it like towards the end? i The impression I got from just interviews and stuff like that was that the there was a real love between Micky Dolenz and Michael Nesmith like a real real Yeah, like bond there that didn't not exist between the other ones. But it just seemed when the two of them came together. It just it was different. It was just it just seemed different. I don't know. I don't know how to explain it. I just I think

John Billings 41:31

I think you saw it. I think you see it for what it is. And I definitely think this last tour. I mean, Micky's OSAT an old SAP anyway, Micky's just a lovey, lovey guy, love, love. He'll come to tears. He loves. I don't mean to mock him because he's, you know, I love the cat. We will come to tears, talk about the Constitution. He gets, he just he gets really emotional. And he expresses those emotions. And I think when it came back to this last run, I mean, when Nez walked in the door that first day of rehearsals, it was kind of a silent but collective gasp, he saw what was going on. Even if he himself didn't we all saw it. And Micky saw it. And I think when you know that somebody's not going to be around but you're going to be with them. You you want to spend more time you're closer to them on stage. Nunez did great during the shows. But he needed help sometimes some of the some you'll see Micky, if you look back at the YouTube videos, you'll see Micky sometimes he's doubling them. Sometimes he's singing really close to him. So he's making sure the lyrics are happening the way it's supposed to happen. I think that and they spent more time with each other. They go out after the show or meet for NASA s wasn't always able to meet after the show, but they'd spent they spent more time with each other than they ever did. So I think I think what you saw was real. I don't think any of that was manufactured. And another note Nez, appreciated it more than he ever did and Andrew Sandoval, there's a couple of articles that the Andrew Zahn that he really expresses that well, he expresses that really well were Nas was was finally at peace with being into monkeys and at peace with where he was he wasn't fighting it anymore. And trying not to be part of it. I could do something else better. He actually was going you know what I was part of this thing and it reached a lot of people made a lot of people happy. And I was in there. I was part of this thing. I never saw that in this until this last run. And then then it was kind of surprising. Like wow, now he sees it. Now he gets it. That's cool. Nice time out on the road.

Jeff Dwoskin 43:15

Michael annasmith Was I love them all. So it says for me to say like, here's my favorite. I love Micky Dolenz I love Davy Jones. But for some reason, Michael Nesmith, his sense of humor in the show specifically I related to that that kind of resonated with me I love that dry sense of humor the way he was he was you know, and his songs. I think in the same way I love George Harrison a lot is like there's something about his songs in his voice that just hit me. I mean, I love I'm a believer I love making Dolan's is, you know, to me like a quintessential voice of the 60s. But there's something about when Michael Nesmith sings also, it just, it just hits me different. I just loved it loved that

John Billings 43:56

he was such a quick wit to talk about comedic timing, like on stage and stuff would just come out of his mouth and just crack us up. He was really good at like off the cuff stuff. That's cool. Did you see this last run? Were you able to catch this last tonight?

Jeff Dwoskin 44:10

You know, I knew Michael Nesmith wasn't doing well and I knew I had to had been had the fortune of seeing him in 2018. And so I sort of made the conscious decision to let that be my closing memory and so totally get up. So I didn't because they did come to town they were like in Royal Oak and all that kind of stuff. Yeah, that's right. That was that was the reason behind that,

John Billings 44:34

you know was really interesting is there's this little sect of fans this little fan base that really believed they were not that you should ever listen to the fans when they rant and rave on on the Facebook and the Twitter. They really believed that we had Michael out there against his will and that we dragged him out of a sick bed and stuck them up on stage and forced him you will do the songs. Mr. Nesmith, that was the exact opposite At what was going on, he wasn't going to sit at home. He wasn't going to miss this. He wanted to go out. And I think innately that he felt like he would never admit it. But I think he felt that this was probably the last time he could ever do this because he just couldn't traveling for him was so difficult. It's so tiring. So all so hard for him. There was hardcore group that really were like, You got to be crying when there are guys or they could hit you're killing him. Like no, we're actually keep him alive. He's so excited to get to tomorrow night that he will not let his heart stop.

Jeff Dwoskin 45:30

He must have a love. I mean, it's a family affair up there, right? I mean, Micky has his sister Coco. And then Michael had his son

John Billings 45:38

Michael had Christian and Searcy for about half that run. And then after Christian Searcy left Jonathan and Jonathan's partner, Susan came out and stayed with him. So he always kept them close. And his our tour manager Dan Mapp, who's been with us for years, Dan and Nez are really tight. And, and as you know, we'd always be a little a little jealous, because Nezhat always just take Dan for himself. And you know, like, Dan, and Dan spent a lot of time with nez. He was never ever alone. He always had people. He had an assistant for a while that was with us, again, for about half of the run that was with him all the time that he he'd had helping him in Monterey in California. So he was never alone. He had people around in that last show, the Greek show, he had Jason and Jason's wife and Jonathan, Jonathan's partner, Susan Jessica Nesmith, Jessica came out. So they, they were all those those guys were there. And that was so cool. They were just showering him in love. And you know, he was just, I remember I went back in the dressing room to say hi to them, because they were all in his room. So I went in and say hi to everybody. And I just remember he was just kind of sitting there. And I know the feeling because I'm a dad of sitting back and watching this happen, watching your kids as growing up and watching them exchange with other people. And it's just fun to sit back and watch and he was doing that he really kind of good night that night. He passed away very,

Jeff Dwoskin 46:55

very shortly, I think three weeks

John Billings 46:56

I think his health was I really believe that him on the road because we you know, we had him on a schedule and eating. He loves it. He'd only eat like fried chicken and steak. So God has cardiologists

Jeff Dwoskin 47:11

if you're gonna go go, yeah.

John Billings 47:14

You know, I'd really believe that keeping them on the road was keeping him going. Because as soon as he got home, I think things just, I don't think he was doing well, at all. It was sad. But you know, we all he knew, we all knew it was coming he knew was coming. We just didn't know when but you know, that was a that was a really good run. But I completely respect and understand what you're saying. Because I feel the same way about some of the people that I love as artists that I would like to remember them the way I like to remember them.

Jeff Dwoskin 47:39

These are amazing stories I would ever. I appreciate that this was great. I tell me about your cool wine store. Like you're involved with the two things I know the least amount. Base and why. Tell me about how you're rockin the Nashville.

John Billings 47:57

Alcohol and music baby. My wife and I we just we always wanted to venue together. We met in 2014. We're both musicians. She's a native of Nashville. She's like the unicorn, you know, grew up here in the music business and stayed because no one in Nashville is from Nashville anymore. So she's got this. She has a personal mission in her life that she wants to bring exposure to what she calls real Nashville. And we always wanted to have a venue together a place where people could come and perform or congregate Hangout. So it's July of 2019. We open right before COVID We opened a wine and spirits barcode wine down Nashville.

Jeff Dwoskin 48:34

That is a great time now open.

John Billings 48:36

We're business geniuses. We opened our spot up and then we would have some of our friends play music. We tried to bring in musicians at a really high level. The whole point was to bring an experience to the to our people, our patrons or customers that you know, we could say we could sit back and say that guy is playing guitar right there. That guy plays for all of these people. And he's one of the baddest dudes on the planet. You're getting an incredible experience right now. Whether you know it or not, we would do thing on Tuesday nights called Off Road ramblings where we would bring our music friends up and do what we're doing right now. We have an interview, just a live interview with him. And I talked to him about their career and their path and how they wove their way through the music business all the way to today. And that was the biggest thing that we ever did. We that was huge. That was the most crowded night we'd have people would just be in the audience awestruck at the stories, especially in a live setting. It was really cool. They'd be sharing all this stuff with us. It was really neat been doing that after COVID It was we made it through. We got through that. It's been a slow build back to get to where we were when we started. And we're starting to bring some of these events and these these storyteller events, the songwriter vans, we're bringing those back to the bar it's been fun it's a labor of love and my wife primarily that's that's her baby. We do it together but that's her you know she's looking at that like a job job. Like that's what

Jeff Dwoskin 49:51

she does when you're off. Yeah. Make you dalens Yeah, and the most she

John Billings 49:55

wants to come along every now and then I'll bring her long I can because I'm like baby I gotta make money if I Bring you I'm not making no money, but she loves to come out. We don't like to be away from each other that long and being on the road. Very difficult to be away from your people.

Jeff Dwoskin 50:08

I hear Yeah, yeah. So yeah, we

John Billings 50:09

definitely we have a cool little spot just north of the airports about two miles from the airport and we love to have people pass through town and say hi and take pictures and be silly and I've got some monkeys memorabilia up on the wall. I've got my bass at Nez and Micky signed to me and I do some tour photography backstage stuff. It's difficult to access for most people that I get these moments with NAS like that I capture so I'll I'll have photos up on the wall some of that stuff. So you gotta come see see some photos.

Jeff Dwoskin 50:36

I'm gonna I'm going to as well and then I'll show you my headquarters album I have signed by yeah, see?

John Billings 50:41

Well, actually you get we do comedy now. So you'll have to you'll have to unfortunately you'll have to work when you come.

Jeff Dwoskin 50:47

Okay, well, I can do that. I work from my wine. We like

John Billings 50:51

that dude. Yeah, we stumbled accidentally in the comedy through Courtney Cronin doled and it's just been a blast so much fun

Jeff Dwoskin 51:00

love it yeah so website what's where can people keep up with you on the on the socials all social stuff

John Billings 51:06

I stay up on the socials I'm horrible my website but wind down national.com is our website you can find how to contact us and reach us there if you want to see you know photographs and find out what's going on with a schedule wise it's we're on Facebook, just enter in wind down Nashville, Instagram and Twitter the same thing. It's all the same. I think my Instagram is wind down now or something like that. But you just do a search for wind down Nashville. You'll find us

Jeff Dwoskin 51:30

I love. Thank you, John, thank you so much for hanging out with me.

John Billings 51:34

Yep, I had a blast, man. And I was listening to you before we even go and I was listening to the Adrienne Barbeau interview because holy cow did I have a crush on her. So it didn't Oh my god. I was listening to you and I was just the whole time God he's talking to Adrienne Barbeau Oh my god. That was really cool. Dude, this is a lot of fun is of such a pleasure.

Jeff Dwoskin 51:52

Thank you. It was I love talking with you. Thank you, sir. All right, everyone. That was the amazing uh, John billings, so many great stories. If you're in Nashville, check out wind down Nashville. Everybody who tells me they're going to Nashville. I say check out wind down so you should too. Well, I guess we're gonna wind down this episode. Now. One more quick thank you to my guest, John Billings. And, of course, a huge thank you to all of you for coming back week after week. I can't thank you enough. It means the world to me, and I'll see you next time.

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