#218 Greg Cope White: From The Pink Marine to Hollywood Writer

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Jeff Dwoskin 0:30

All right, Rachel, thank you so much for that amazing introduction. You get the show going each and every week, and this week was no exception. Welcome, everybody to Episode 218 of classic conversations. As always, I am your host, Jeff Dwoskin. Great to have you back for another celebratory classic conversation. My guest today is Greg Cope White screenwriter, producer, author veteran, Greg is an amazing human being and we're going to talk all about his memoir, the pink marine an inspirational story of a teenage boy struggling with self acceptance and doesn't fit the traditional definition of manliness finds acceptance and self worth in the Marine Corps boot camp at a time when being out wasn't in. Greg's story is coming up in just a few seconds. And a nice few seconds. I want to recap last week's interview with Joyce Bulla font, an amazing deep dive into her memoir so many great stories from Mary Tyler Moore and how she was almost Carol Brady so much greatness in that episode as well. But right now Paul shoes standard attention at ease soldier. All right now we can enjoy my conversation with Greg Cope White. Enjoy. All right, everyone. I'm excited to introduce you to my next guest, screenwriter, producer, author of the pink Marine. Welcome to the show, Sergeant Gregory cope white.

Greg Cope White 2:04

reporting as ordered, sir.

Jeff Dwoskin 2:06

I hope you don't mind. I extended it to Gregory. I thought that sounds better than Sergeant Greg. I don't know why it just sounded so more official Sergeant Gregory way it does.

Greg Cope White 2:15

But you know, I hear Gregory and I think it's my mom. And I figure I'm in trouble. So

Jeff Dwoskin 2:19

I will go back to Greg full time. So amazing to have you on the show. Thank you for hanging in with me. I am really happy to be with you. So I loved your book. Thank you for sending me a copy. I enjoyed it. It was it was easy to read. I'm not like the best reader in the world. But I really got sucked into your book. I love short chapters that are succinct. And it was funny. I tell you when I read your book, first thing that kind of went through my mind when you went to the Marine boot camp was that scene and Anchorman where Ron Burgundy jumps into the bear den. And he says I immediately regret this decision.

Greg Cope White 3:00

I've never had that comp. That's great. You know, those are all really lovely words to hear. As a writer.

Jeff Dwoskin 3:06

Yeah, it was. It was really, really enjoyable. I love that whole journey. And I'd like to talk through a bunch of it with you. But I'd love to kind of what's your origin? Like? Where did I know you? You moved around a lot as a kid. What was the kind of impetus that got you into writing and following your passion to write,

Greg Cope White 3:25

I did live all around, I had so many collective stories and memories from moving around so much. And I went to 13 schools and 11 years. In the 10th grade alone, I went to three schools. While that can leave a lot of scars. It also has some weird benefits, and including the ability to adapt and overcome, which is sort of the Marine Corps mission. And we I guess I just I knew the minute I walked into boot camp, I knew that I was going to write about it. I didn't know what that looked like because I wasn't a writer yet. To me, that was something that was unattainable. I didn't have an education. I didn't know anything about Hollywood or anything like that. I always dreamed of that life. I actually as a kid wanted to be an actor. So when I got out of the Marine Corps, I moved to New York City and studied acting, I enrolled in the school, and very quickly started working. And then that led me to move to Los Angeles. And I just got really lucky and within a couple of years, I start I had transitioned from acting to writing, and I just got really lucky and I got a job working for Norman Lear.

Jeff Dwoskin 4:31

I mean, is there anyone greater than Norman Lear? That was 704 Houser?

Greg Cope White 4:36

No. My first show with him was the powers that be it was a really funny political comedy with Holland Taylor and John Forsyth and also a cast of undiscovered it was David Hyde Pierce's discovery he had just moved out from New York. His son was played by a 10 year old kid, it was his first acting job. That was Joseph Gordon. Love it. Oh, wow. What a great cast. It was hilarious that ran for two seasons and And then we moved on to 704 Howser, which was who's living in Archie Bunker's house today, and this was the 90s. And we did some research on the demographics of that neighborhood in Queens, and it was mostly African American neighborhood and so we put a black family in Archie Bunker's house. Norman had the sets and storage, and he took him out, and we redecorated and redecorated the themes of the show. And it was a lot of fun. That was for CBS.

Jeff Dwoskin 5:25

I love that show. I remember that show because I love John AMS and Maura Tierney. And that was a really fun show it it didn't I don't think it lasted that long. But it was it was a great concept and idea.

Greg Cope White 5:37

Yeah, it was it was six episodes. And it was it was a lot of fun. We had a Mr. was great. She was terrific. And and kind of a discovery.

Jeff Dwoskin 5:44

Sounds like you met a lot of great people like early earlier in their careers, and they kind of just blew up, you know, like David i Paris. I mean, obviously, Fraser and

Greg Cope White 5:52

I got good fortunate to work with people like Norman Lear, who attract that level of talent with really amazing projects.

Jeff Dwoskin 5:59

What was it like being part of that Norman Lear ecosystem, that world where development, and

Greg Cope White 6:06

I don't know what it's like not to be in it, because I'm still in it. And you know, he's behind my show. So it is wonderful, because I've always looked at Hollywood as having a big wall around it. And inside the wall is legitimate Hollywood, people with agents and managers and projects that are looked at and considered by studios. And then outside the wall are all the people trying to get in. And they all have children projects and great imaginations and great skill, for the most part, it just is going to take that break to get them over that wall and get in that world. So once you're there, you just have to make sure not to mess it up and get kicked out of the kingdom.

Jeff Dwoskin 6:44

What were the jobs you had along the way? As you kind of I know, you're now your new show, and we'll get to that the pink Marine is with Norman Lear. He's an executive producer. What were some of the early roles that you did, like, what was your evolution before? You know, obviously, right now, having a show show with him.

Greg Cope White 7:01

I started as an assistant in the office. And I was told when I was hired that they knew that I was a writer. And if I would just do a year without asking anybody to read a script, just put my nose down, do my work and learn. And I was happy to do that. That's paying dues. And the next day, Norman came up to my desk and said, introduced himself and said, I heard you're a writer. And I said, Yes, of course. And he said have something on my desk tomorrow. So I did. And that was the beginning of working for him in that capacity. So I was still was an assistant for probably, I don't know, nine months or a year before I wrote the episode of powers to pay, and then went on to develop things as well. We developed we had a show in development with Sony for Margaret Cho, she wasn't she had not been discovered yet, and was still doing a lot of stand up. But we lost the bidding war to her for Ted Disney. So So I developed other things and wrote a thing. And then I went on, I left Norman's company, and went on staff on another show that was no I wrote a dream on episode which was the same creators of powers that be David Crane and Marta Kauffman. So I wrote a, I wrote one of those. And then after I was on staff, I just kept going and then I was a writer from then on out. I also along the way did some other things I getting ready for my blog, you know, writing scripts is a different style, obviously, than long form narrative. And that's something I didn't know I didn't go to school. I'm not a trained writer. So I knew that I wanted to write the story. I just didn't know how to do it. So I actually started a blog, ran a blog for a couple of years and I would write stories about the Marines and write a lot of stories about cooking. And as I was writing the book, I had two opportunities come up I didn't take any jobs while I was writing the book, I just focused on that. But one was with Food Network and one was with Mark Burnett. So I went on a reality competition show a cooking show for Mark Burnett. I cook all the time. And that was a lot of fun. And I did it in case that was a fun part of my book marketing platform. And then Food Network reached out and said we'd like to talk to you about turning your character that you are on your blog into a TV show so I shot a pilot for them and that didn't go anywhere but they had me hosts some other things for them

Jeff Dwoskin 9:20

when I finally discovered eat Greg he.com It was it's right now it's private.

Greg Cope White 9:26

It's down right now but there that's where a lot of that there's a lot of short stories out there there's a few Huffington Post picked up the blog and there's some on there those are still up but yes it's not that blog isn't live right now.

Jeff Dwoskin 9:39

Yeah, I saw you had like you were on unique eats and cake masters and I had this when you say your cooking talk or your dessert oriented I like is that your are you know I cook any food?

Greg Cope White 9:51

I'm any food. I the first show food never put me on was was a dessert show. And I'm not mad at that. You know, you're going to pay me to go around the country and eat desserts. Yes.

Jeff Dwoskin 10:01

Oh yeah, it does not sound like torture.

Greg Cope White 10:05

I'm like any other writer, I literally will work for Food Network.

Jeff Dwoskin 10:09

That's awesome. It's amazing that every one of your passions you've been able to kind of expand into a greater thing I am food and then a blog, you know, became a potential Food Network show. But then also, you know, being on all the other shows being marine and that blog led to a book, which is now a TV in development. I

Greg Cope White 10:31

owe all that to the Marine Corps. And they're the things that they instill in you for success and motivate sounds like a cult. But look if that's what it took to get me who was, you know, raised with no hope no future, not knowing where I was in the world. You know, this is out was not in so there, I didn't see a life and a place for myself in society. I was going to K people were arrested when I was growing up.

Jeff Dwoskin 10:57

Alright, so let's talk about that. Let's talk about so you're 19 years old, right? You're going to 18 at 18 years old, your great friend Dale, it sounds like an amazing, amazing person.

Greg Cope White 11:09

He we're still we're closer than ever we're best friends to this day. We both live with a lot of that's probably the biggest question I get about the book is what happened to Dale, he everything that we ever dreamed of came true. He's very successful surgeon here in Southern California and godfather to his kids, and we talk or text every single day.

Jeff Dwoskin 11:29

What made de also amazing that he was able to accept you at such a young age like because obviously he must have been raised, you know, well, and like he accepted you and you know, became part of your protection. Now, you know, mental protection, at least when you went into the Marines. I just I'm fascinated by at that age, especially in the way society was at the time. You know, it's so unforgiving. Like how amazing he was. Yeah, you

Greg Cope White 11:54

know, his support is the touchstone of my entire life. That's it's true. We've been, we've been best friends for 13. So to have his support from that early age is remarkable. We can't figure it out. We just can't think of it another way. He's such a good nice guy, that he wasn't about to judge me for something that he didn't see. all he saw was a nice guy that he enjoyed being with who was funny, and got his sense of humor, he got my sense of humor, what's not to get along about that. We weren't competing for each other in any way. We weren't dating each other, we had our separate lives. So it really just was a you know, we often refer to it as, as a soulmate.

Jeff Dwoskin 12:41

Hello, rest of the world. See, it's not that hard, right? We're all just here to do good and, and get along.

Greg Cope White 12:48

If people were to strip away more and get to the fact that there are things that you and look, we don't have to like everybody, but I certainly don't want to be liked for the things that you don't know about me. I don't want to be not like for the things you don't know about me. You know, call me call me all the names you want, because it's gonna roll off my back. I've had drill instructors call me much worse than anybody else could.

Jeff Dwoskin 13:10

Oh, yeah, it was it was uncomfortable. Even just reading that in the book. I to be honest, sorry to interrupt, have to take a quick break, want to thank everyone for their support of the sponsors. When you support the sponsors. You're supporting us here at Classic conversations. And that's how we keep the lights on. And now back to my amazing conversation with Greg cope white, we're gonna dive down the path that led him to the Marines and we're back. Alright, so you don't know, you know, you're looking for your path being out wasn't as accepted. So you decide to go to the one place where it's the least success. Right in the Marines. Now I know you've Dale was going and so part of it was that going with him,

Greg Cope White 13:51

I didn't know what that meant. When he called me he'd been to the Air Force Academy. He's he got an appointment to the Air Force Academy. And during that first year, his vision went just a little bit off. So he couldn't be a pilot and he didn't want to be a navigator. He wanted to be a pilot Dale's an achiever. So he called me we both had our freshman year of college or junior college in my case, and he told me that he was leaving the Air Force Academy, but he had a military commitment to fill out. And his father was a master gunnery sergeant in the Marines, which is the highest enlisted rank, and always had hoped that his son would be a Marine. So Dale continues to tell me that he's going to go away for the summer. He's going to Parris Island for a boot camp, he'll be gone all summer. And all I really heard was summer and camp, and I thought, I love camp. I'll go with you. And that's a true testament to Dale. He never said no, he never said this is crazy. He said, You should really think about it because this is very difficult and hard, but I just thought, I'm gonna go get to spend the summer at summer camp at Parris Island sounds pretty exotic with my best friend so what what could go wrong? And then as I went down to the process to begin the enlistment process, then things got, you know, a lot of red flags came up. I had never been asked before, if I were gay. But the way that the Marines asked that at the time was they stretched it out, you know, I was in the south. So we're in New Orleans, long, long, long. So the you've got this big tough Marine Corps drill instructors, there are recruiters sitting across from you, and asking you nine ways to Sunday if you're a homosexual, I didn't know that question was coming. I had never been asked that before. I wasn't ready for it. And I somehow got through and I lied, I lied, then I lied, lied, lied nine different times. And then somehow convinced me signed off on the paper. But I still had to take a physical, and I was 14 pounds shy. So you'll read in the book about what I did to get through it. But if since you've read the book that the Charles chips can that we filled up all those years ago, with snacks to eat, his mother kept everything. And she was fantastic. She's in the book and the show.

Jeff Dwoskin 16:04

Yeah, you worked really hard to meet those requirements. It must have been so hard. I mean, just it's like when you're I'm reading it, you know, it's one of those things where, like, you know, I know, I know, you know, don't don't ask, don't tell, you know, all those things, like, you know, but reading your book kind of brought it much closer to me to understanding what all this meant it just to me, like, it's crazy. Like, just think how it's one thing for them to be anti gay. I mean, that, you know, I'm sorry, I didn't, you know, I mean, it's like one thing for them to think it. But like for them to like, put it into like the questionnaires like they like to be so outwardly to make sure that they're weeding it all out at the source. It was just that was that caught me a little off guard while I was reading it. I didn't realize it was so blatant, like that level, like we don't even want you in the door. We're gonna do everything we can to keep you out right from the get Yeah.

Greg Cope White 16:55

Because as a you'll know, from the inciting incident of me even getting in, I didn't fully understand what I was doing. And like you just said, to compare that to Anchorman. Had I known what was about to come? I would have never done it. Absolutely not. So I'm actually happy that I wasn't raised on war movies and playing GI Joe and all that because I didn't I came in as a completely blank slate. Look, let's be honest, I have to admit that this place that was completely prescriptive, to my lifestyle turned out to give me the confidence to even come out while I was in the Marine Corps in private, not to them. They gave me the confidence to live my authentic life that they hated.

Jeff Dwoskin 17:36

Well, it was good that served up lemons, you make lemonade and were able to make that so positive.

Greg Cope White 17:42

Pink laminate, think laminate.

Jeff Dwoskin 17:45

Thank you. How did I miss that? Avi?

Greg Cope White 17:49

Hey, writing teams in the past. I love my writing partner Sean Dwyer. We write a lot of things, our books, our Netflix movies we've written together. I met him working for Norman Lear, we wrote our sitcoms together. He's fantastic. That's

Jeff Dwoskin 17:59

awesome. So do you have a GIF of running? I want to keep going with the book. But it's just real quick on the Netflix movie, since you brought it up. Like do you work? For what Netflix and

Greg Cope White 18:07

no, I don't have an overall deal with? No, I've made two movies. They've bought three. We haven't made the third one. They're a great partner.

Jeff Dwoskin 18:14

My friend sowards. Amelia loves holiday movies. He's like, I do a show where we talk about dolphin. He's always we kind of make fun of them a little bit because he's like, it's not the person you would think would just love Christmas rom com. Like can't get enough of, of holiday rom com any type show. So I tell them about your movie, so I made sure he's gonna watch it.

Greg Cope White 18:35

Good. My boyfriend loves Christmas movies, because he's guaranteed a happy ending. So I've done a few of them. They're great. It's holiday rush actually was inspired by Dale's daughter's notorious Christmas list. Oh,

Jeff Dwoskin 18:49

that's amazing. All right. Well, let's get back to the book so that you got got much more marine story to tell. The whole time. You're there you you're keeping this a secret. So you have to it's the whole rigors of really hard time and bootcamp. I mean, it's like they don't let up on Yeah,

Greg Cope White 19:05

I remember I went in with no physical training. I'd never played a sport in my life, as I said, was incredibly underweight. Never run a mile. i No one had ever screamed at me like that. It was it was quite the awakening. I was

Jeff Dwoskin 19:18

a skinny kid and not athletic at all. I remember being on a floor hockey team that my parents signed me up for and it was the worst thing ever, but when I was reading that not on ice hockey on the floor, yeah, it's just like floor hockey. Yeah, it's not on ice. Not an ice. No, please, ice I was. That would be a death sentence.

Greg Cope White 19:41

What makes the puck slide?

Jeff Dwoskin 19:42

It's just I don't know. It's just you just it's I'm like one of those gym floors. So it's slick.

Greg Cope White 19:47

Was there even a puck was this hockey?

Jeff Dwoskin 19:50

Was this a fever dream?

Greg Cope White 19:52

Yeah, we might need to pull this apart.

Jeff Dwoskin 19:55

It's for hockey. I don't know. It's just not Yeah, it's something we did in gym class and

Greg Cope White 19:59

I probably wouldn't care quote that from now on?

Jeff Dwoskin 20:03

Anyway, my point was when I was when I was getting to was when I was reading about you doing the physical and three pull ups. I was like, wow, I would have been out right there out and like,

Greg Cope White 20:14

everybody listening, go try to do a pull up right now, pull ups are not

Jeff Dwoskin 20:18

easy. And then and to do three, I was like, how did you pull that off? It's just a skinny kid without any athletic background.

Greg Cope White 20:27

You know, a lot of it was because yes, I had never done one. And so couldn't imagine doing three. It probably helped that I was skinny. It didn't have a lot to lift maybe. But it was Dale. He was right there. He was in my line of sight. He slapped me on the back going up there. I know you can do it. He's a fantastic motivator. Amazing. I should have had Dale here. He was really funny. Actually.

Jeff Dwoskin 20:48

Dale sounds amazing. He does. He sounds like everyone needs a Dale in their life. I think that's

Greg Cope White 20:54

it's the family quote is it's good to be Dale.

Jeff Dwoskin 20:58

So as you're hiding the secret, right, you're keeping the secret, right? You have to make sure nobody, because the reality is they probably beat the shit out of you. Right? I mean, if this is the time, right, I mean, that's

Greg Cope White 21:10

the fear I lead with actually not that I was going to be discovered in court martialed, and have this weird public trial. It was that the second that they found out whoever that was, was going to beat the shit out of me right there.

Jeff Dwoskin 21:22

Yeah. So that's, that's got to be horrible. So to live with that day after day? And then? And maybe the answer is never to this question is did you ever were you able to just instinctively internalize the slurs, the gay slurs that, that your officers were throwing out where your face wouldn't react? Like you talked about, like during the interview, you had to make sure you weren't giving it away on your face? Like,

Greg Cope White 21:48

it actually helped that they were thrown out so often and indiscriminately, because I realized really quickly that those weren't aimed at me. They were calling everybody faggot. So, you know, yes, I was like, it hit more personally to me at first, but soon, it was just another word. I encourage everybody to understand that when someone makes a slur at you, it's that's not about you. That's about them. They don't know you.

Jeff Dwoskin 22:13

I agree with that. 100%. Most people, it's amazing how many people's hate is rooted in absolutely nothing other than what was told to them, maybe by someone else who carried the hate and probably doesn't understand it either. You know, as a Jew, like with anti semitism, you know, personally, it's like, it's amazing what people will say or believe that they don't even know why they believe it. At some point in their lives.

Greg Cope White 22:35

I hope you also understand that that's, it sounds like you do that. That's not That's not you. That's them.

Jeff Dwoskin 22:41

Oh, right. It's just, it's just unbelievable, because it's, I was at a comic con. I mean, this was two weeks ago, and we're waiting in line to meet somebody. And we're talking to this guy, I'm with my friend who is also Jewish, the guy makes an anti semitic comment, and then looks at us and goes, You're not Jews are Yeah, we're like, yeah, yeah, we are. And then in our heads, both me like we talked about it later. But we both went into the same mode we went into, we now represent Jews, we now got to come off where he thinks, Oh, these are just two normal Jewish guys. Were both at a comic con, we have similar interests, we're actually meeting the same person and juice aren't that bad. Yeah, it's like, it's obvious. I knew we were like the representative and is like,

Greg Cope White 23:27

but at least you know, I'm glad that you said you did represent you, you could have easily pulled something like from the biblical days and denied your faith or whatever. But you didn't. And I did have to. I did lie. And I felt awful that I was lying. Because the closer I would get to people that didn't know, the worse I felt, because I knew that that was something between us and you all you always live in that fear. If they do know that, are they going to still support you? And are you still going to be friends? Or is that going to fracture it? Sometimes just the secret alone might fracture it much less the judgment for whatever that is that you're hiding?

Jeff Dwoskin 24:03

If we fast forward for a second, have you bumped into any of those people? Or do you stay in touch with any of those people who now know that you are gay and they they you had hidden it at that time? You know, for like what their reactions might have been or?

Greg Cope White 24:16

No, I don't not. From that. My boot camp platoon. The platoon in the book a few people have found the book and reached out and love the story. I mean, look, this is a love letter to the Marine Corps. There is no question my book is a love letter to the Marine Corps. I hate the policy that discriminated against gays in the military. But I'm so to use an overused word. I'm just so grateful for the things that they did give me I got a lot more from them than they got out of me.

Jeff Dwoskin 24:43

That's good. It's so I the bathroom situation sounded undeniably horrible.

Greg Cope White 24:50

They gotta put that on the brochure people. It's just a nightmare. I was not a guy that would go and just communal troughs. thing with the urinal. Who created that? Who thinks that's a good idea? Is anybody comfortable with that?

Jeff Dwoskin 25:05

No, when you see it like, like some like big sporting laces, right where you go to like, like the men's bathroom, and it's you ever noticed, you know what's funny is when you go and they'll any guy will use an open stall, no foul, no problem. I don't like public bias. But if they walk into an actual stall, they always close the door. Yeah,

Greg Cope White 25:26

I mean, I just don't know what it is. But that and maybe it's to put us all on the level playing field or whatever, or or it's a lot cheaper. But yeah, I was not excited about a communal trough. And then at the time, Parris Island had no stalls between the toilets. So after you walk past the urinal trough of terror, you just go into an open room of toilets, and guys are sitting there. Eventually, as we got more comfortable with each other people are passing around letters and sharing things while they're sitting around. And I'm like, what, which of you people was raised in a house with more than one toilet in a bathroom? Where this is just totally normal, uncomfortable for you?

Jeff Dwoskin 26:03

Is that part of like, you think the marine training, like they're trying to create this mentality amongst all of you. So if you go to war, you're just there's nothing, there's no event or thing that can kind of separate you and you're like, you become this one, that all those weird things just get pushed to the side. And it's like, it's like, because of the way they treat you. And like, it's, it's just an interesting, I don't even know how to phrase it, maybe by like,

Greg Cope White 26:29

No, you're right, they do. We are stripped of our individuality. From day one, our heads are shaved or put in the same uniforms. We're told that there's no more black, white, brown, any other skin tones in here, everybody's green, your dark green, light green, in the fuck between green, maybe a little pink, and you're there for a different purpose. You're not there for yourself, you're there for your brothers, you're there for your fellow Americans. And you have to remember that the military's job and that 13 week boot camp is to train you to act on an order without thinking to accomplish that mission. And that includes possibly committing the act of murder for your country. And you're born and raised not to do that or want to do that. And of course, no one wants to do that. But they do have to get you to that point where you would,

Jeff Dwoskin 27:24

there was a interesting quote in the book, pray for peace, prepare for war. That was a pretty powerful sentence. And you can apply that to a lot of things. But like, I thought that was a good it was it was really interesting. It made me stop and think for a second when I read that. So let's talk about the potential of getting you into the mindset for murder. Do they make your gun it sounds like your rifle is like becomes a part of you. From what I gather from the book. Yeah,

Greg Cope White 27:50

you don't even fire it for several weeks, and I hadn't fired, they're fired. There's a story in the book about my first time targeting a gun before boot camp, and you're with that rifle 24/7 You, you march with it, you pull it apart in your time, how quickly you can disassemble it and reassemble it. You learn everything about it for maybe five or six weeks, then you move off to the rifle range and spend two weeks at the rifle range. So it is a very precious time because all Marines rifleman that's our first duty. And if you can't shoot, you're not an effective Marine. And if you're not effective Marine, why are you there?

Jeff Dwoskin 28:26

Is the scene from Forrest Gump? Accurate? My name is dissembling and Reyes,

Greg Cope White 28:30

I don't remember the scene. I'm so sorry.

Jeff Dwoskin 28:33

I tell you what tanks in the very beginning where he's got the whole body. He puts the gun together so fast and

Greg Cope White 28:38

yes, that's how it is very fast. Okay, it's a matter of seconds. Yeah. You get the vote care group off and the air tall. Yes. It's so rapid and you just keep doing it. I mean, look, we march and drill on the drill field, watch some YouTube videos of Marines marching and it's fantastic. And we polish our boots for hours and hours a day we polish our brass belt buckle hours and hours a day. So everything that we do is perfect. We fire a lot before we even qualify. So the three levels you can qualify as an expert a marksman are a sharpshooter, sharpshooter is just an expert in every other people's world. Wow. No, or even a marksman.

Jeff Dwoskin 29:19

I've heard the story in the book. What's funny about Dale being like this master, I think it was his boot. Chinese boots. Yeah. But he had no idea why they were so great.

Greg Cope White 29:30

No, and he you know, that was that's a really funny chapter in the book because he really had no idea but it was incredible. And we'd all come to me as best friend and he couldn't say how he got his boots so shiny. But they were it was remarkable, where even as you know from the book to our drill instructors bought and brought an entire platoon over to visit Dale's boots and marvel at them.

Jeff Dwoskin 29:54

So funny. Talk to me about the food I got the impression it was like really, really bad.

Greg Cope White 29:58

It's just awful and And that's not coming from a food snob place. I think I just invented a word of snoop. But the fact that I was skinny, made them think that they needed to fatten me up, and they decided to put me on double rations and to eat two amounts of this slop was impossible. So I made a deal with them. And you'll see how that worked out in the book. It was a smart deal on my part. But the food was made you have to remember it's there on a budget, I'm sure they've got 1000s of boys to feed and young women to feed and the eggs were reconstituted. They weren't they were like powder eggs. Somehow that got turned add water and it comes back into eggs. At the beginning. I hadn't yet figured out that this was all the food we were getting those three meals a day, because you're used to maybe you don't like this. That's okay. In a couple hours, I'll get a snack. No, there is no snacks. You just get those three meals, you don't have a 711 You'd go pop into you don't have things stashed away in your footlocker, none of that. And so gradually, or really quickly, actually, probably after two days, I was eating everything on my plate because you're expending an incredible amount of energy.

Jeff Dwoskin 31:09

Well, it sounded horrible, especially like I think I think there was a story about having to eat it out of the garbage. I was just like, yeah, you'll

Greg Cope White 31:15

see that on the TV show, too. Yeah, I

Jeff Dwoskin 31:17

worked with someone whose son was in the military, and they said the grade of food that they got is not not good. We need to take a quick break, because I'm assuming you're hungry at this point. And we're back. Greg is about to share an exclusive story, not even in the book with us.

Greg Cope White 31:34

I'll tell you a story tonight in the book, I went to Officer Candidate School as well which long story about that, but after boot camp, I was recruited to go to Officer Candidate School. So I met in Quantico. And the first day where there was a there were two six week sessions. First day, big speech from the commanding officer, you can always go out there and do your job well for six weeks, train hard, get high scores, and we're gonna reward you at the end with a steak dinner. So for six weeks, I had that steak dinner carrot dangling in front of me and I fired really well, not just for that, but it was a big motivator and ran extra hard and fast and passed my inspections and everything that could last day comes whoever's left and there's a big attrition rate, again, at school, because you can just leave and I'm in the line, we're outside, and I don't smell a grill. And I'm thinking okay, I guess there might be there could be a demand side, bringing them out, not sure why we're out eating outside, getting closer, getting closer, and then I can see cookie, the chef standing behind a huge pot, reaching into that pot with tongs and pulling a steak out of the boiling water and throw it on a plate. Six weeks, I'd waited for a steak and I get the soul of a shoe.

Jeff Dwoskin 32:47

Ah, my heart goes out to you once again.

Greg Cope White 32:51

And my one of my fellow Marines was so upset and disgusted and we were sitting outside he saw a small frog hop by he picked up the frog and as a true marine popped it in his mouth and ate that frog instead of

Jeff Dwoskin 33:05

that steak. Wow. Okay.

Greg Cope White 33:09

You might see that in a TV show. That's

Jeff Dwoskin 33:11

a proteins protein as they say, right. You got squirrels in your in the book too. So

Greg Cope White 33:16

yes, yes. There was a there was a squirrel that was eaten alive.

Jeff Dwoskin 33:20

No, no. So at the end, at the end of everything, you you are awarded Private First Class, they picked six people out of your

Greg Cope White 33:29

I am just as shocked as you. Yeah, to be meritoriously promoted at the end was incredible. This is a place that was giving me things that I not only had never gotten in life before. But I didn't think that was something that was available to me. I wasn't I wasn't born to be a competitor or anything like that. So to have my senior drill instructor decide that I was one of the sticks of 72 recruits to promote to the next rank was overwhelming. I when I walked up to get it. I was aware that there were probably people that thought him really, because that's

Jeff Dwoskin 34:06

just how we roll. Dale was one of the six as well. Yes. And he also got honor, man. Yeah, it's like they say you you rise to the people that you're around and be with. And you know, in the stories in the book, it's not surprising at the end of the book when you make that reveal or share that information. Because I mean, how hard you worked with the obstacle course and everything that you did to get through. It's like, yeah, all right.

Greg Cope White 34:32

They were teaching me to want that. They were teaching me and showing me that I could you know, when I had when my drill instructor saw that I wasn't believing in myself. He gave me the most important advice that I could give to anybody, which is stop thinking of yourself as less than stop thinking of yourself as average. And there's no limits on any of it. You've got to show did you grow up thinking you were going to have a popular podcast and interview people on Those who

Jeff Dwoskin 35:01

know that never did occur to me actually, it's, but you're right. It's all about, you know, just believing in yourself. And a lot of times people achieve things, because they just believe they can. And those that don't just chose to believe it wasn't for them, they couldn't do it.

Greg Cope White 35:17

Right. Even you might have struggled to like, look, when you bought that equipment, you've got a thing you're talking into it. That's some sort of microphone diffuser, you've got a headphone jack to go by that maybe you have a camera, were you thinking, is this worth it? Is this gonna pay off? Should I do this?

Jeff Dwoskin 35:33

So it was a journey, I invested very little. And then as it started going, I put a little more into it. And I'm like, I'm in I'm in fall, you know. So, in podcasting, most people quit after seven episodes. So it's, you know, it's not, it's not totally easy to do it, it's, you know, you can start, it's just like anything, it's just, there's a grind to it that once you kind of get into it gotta go, you've learned

Greg Cope White 35:57

just what I articulate in the book, which is, when you think you can't take one more step, you actually can't

Jeff Dwoskin 36:03

that was a great message from the book, it's, it was interesting I was, it was where they put in something like a mouse or something in water. And as it started to drown, they pulled it out and saved it. And then they put it back in the water. And once it knew that it would be saved, it was able to tread water for days, because it's just the belief that can keep you going and like that, once you have that. And it's the absence of that that can cause you to give up. But if you if you have the belief, and it's tangible, you can accomplish anything like it US

Greg Cope White 36:41

Marine Corps, drill instructors are phenomenal people, they're not going to give up on you. Unless you give up on yourself more than once. I gave up on myself many times. And to have these guys re motivate you is fantastic. I sound like a recruiting ad for the Marine Corps. Please go sign up and change your life. But it's certainly not for everybody. I didn't imagine that as my journey. But it was the best thing that ever happened to me. And yeah, so I owe a lot to those drill instructors and, and even my fellow Marines that cheered me on and I was cheering them on to it. It's great. You know, I cheer for your success.

Jeff Dwoskin 37:16

Well, thank you. I'm cheering for you, too. I'm excited. Let's as part of my cheering is that the book is becoming a TV show on Netflix. Is it becoming a TV show or a movie is a series a series? Okay. Ah, so

Greg Cope White 37:29

we just we just finished writing season one.

Jeff Dwoskin 37:32

Amazing. So tell me about the journey from taking the book, becoming, you know, to getting a Netflix deal. Working with, you know, getting Norman Lear on board, all that

Greg Cope White 37:41

kind of I met. I was already gone from Norman and work in another show. When Norman hired a new director of development, Rachel Davidson. And I would still come into the office to work on things that they were working on, you know, kind of like a journeyman writer, I pump something out that they needed or whatever. And Rachel would hear Norman call me sergeant. And she thought that it was like calling a big guy tiny or something. Sure. She's always funny. And Norman said, no, no, he's actually a sergeant in the Marine Corps. She said, Well, I got to hear that story. Based on how I look. I don't mind being judged on how I look. Just don't tell me I'm a bad cook. But the so we started talking about it. And you started hearing these stories. And, you know, Norman was a big supporter from day one of this project as possibly a script. So when I first was working for him, I actually wrote my first assignment for him was rewriting a movie we had in development, it was Arnold Schwarzenegger was going to play the tooth fairy. We ended up not making that movie that went on to be made by other people for the rock. But Norman's idea was, what if Schwarzenegger his day job as the tooth fairy was a Marine Corps drill instructor. So I did a rewrite on that made America did a Marine Corps drill instructor pass, you know, so Norman, I'd love that story. And I tried to think of writing it as a script at that time. But this was before Will and Grace was on there. There weren't a lot of gay characters on television. And so I didn't see a marketplace for it as a shoppable show, or film script. So i That's why I wrote it as a book when I didn't create it on purpose. I do get that question a lot, because there are screenwriters that are taking their scripts and turning them into QuickBooks. And that's not what I did I really wanted to learn and, and write this story, long form narrative. Look, I'd written scripts, I'd never written a book that's again, something that I wanted to do. So Rachel was really encouraging even while I was writing the book, and would read drafts and pinpoint things that I thought she thought I should dive deeper into my writing partner, Shawn Dwyer did the same thing and it was great and then by the time I was ready to publish the book, Rachel option did officially and we were careful about who we shopped it around. To because we didn't want to get a lot of nose, because once you get it No, it's no, it's hard to bring that project back in. And I had sent the script to Norman for notes. And I done a pilot adaptation of the book myself with Sean. And that's not what. So the books are not our adaptation. And Norman saw it, and he got it. And he's like I want in, which was great. And he's got a producing partner named Brent Miller, who's also an EP on the show. And Brent totally got it. And they have a deal with Sony. So first idea, which means for people that might not know, you, if you have a deal, you take it to Sony. And if they like it, they develop it. If they don't want to develop it, you're free to take it somewhere else. So Norman took it to Sony. They said, Yes, we went in on this, I started having some really fun meetings with Sony. And they were terrific. They wanted to make sure that story was protected. And every every step along the way, you know that when we did find the show runner that it was that he was a true partner for me. And that's come to pass. And we developed it, this was right as locked down with happening. So the last in person meeting I had before locked down was with Sony. And we had had enough of those in person meetings where we could pick up on Zoom. So for about the first three months of COVID, we started interviewing showrunners and found one, his name is Andy Parker. He's fantastic. And then we started developing the pilot story. And we went off to pitch. And then we pitched I think it was March of 2021. And we got in a bidding war between Apple and Netflix. And that was fun and wild. And, you know, I'm trying to appreciate every step of this journey. So I love the Rachel option, the book, I love that Norman got interested, I love that Sony got interested, it was just going up these great steps. And believe me for every step up just like what I went through in boot camp, there were 50 steps back, and tons of disappointments and crushing defeats and anxieties. And then we get a little a little success. So we decided to go with Netflix, they had an interesting offer. So we started the writers room, we started staffing the writers room. And I was really excited because we found two combat marine veterans to write. So we have, we have Nick Jones, and we have Megan Farrell Burke, who's an officer in the Marine Corps. So we had that perspective from her. And we also had our writers assistant and was an Air Force veteran, she's amazing and got to fill in those gaps, because that's part of Dale's character's backstory as the Air Force obviously, just like in real life, and we just started breathing in. So all the characters that you that you meet in the book that that you get little glimpses of, we get to expand those and get to know them a lot better.

Jeff Dwoskin 42:57

That's awesome. So alright, so you have you have the book, right? So you have a basis of stories, right? And then what is it like eight, eight episode season? That's usually it's 10 episodes. 10 episodes. Okay, so we've adapted the pink marine into 10 episodes. And I love that they're like eight to 10 episodes like Netflix because you you get like solid story. You don't have to like with the 24 episode seasons, you don't you know, like of yesteryear,

Greg Cope White 43:23

you got we needed we needed 10. It's just, you know, bootcamp is 13 weeks, we didn't want to rush it. We really wanted to get to know these people. And I was very happy to get 10 Yes, you're right, there an order could have been six or eight.

Jeff Dwoskin 43:35

So when you come up with Season One, do you kind of say I this is kind of what this is what season two? Likely could be this is what season three could likely be? Yeah. And then that's part of the pitch. So if you get the, if they renew it, you can go right into and you have like the least the outline of where you want to go.

Greg Cope White 43:53

Yes. Typically, on any show you go in with ready to pitch the whole arc of the first season with specifics. And then you just talk about in broad strokes what you do in the second half the second season and the third season in the fourth season. So we wouldn't just fit that and and he did a great job of weaving in, you know, the new, there's obviously a ton of new characters, and some of the characters are based on other things. And some of them are just new characters that aren't in the book. So it's yes, and every every character has an arc and my character is obviously our way in and then the through line and I can't reveal a lot but you read well, you've read

Jeff Dwoskin 44:34

so read the book. Now you guys want to find out what happens in the show before the show you go read the book.

Greg Cope White 44:38

Yes. And we do. We end the first season. They are you know, we'll see who graduates bootcamp. Did you get to pick who played you? We haven't cast yet. We just got out of the writers room yesterday.

Jeff Dwoskin 44:49

Okay, okay. Okay. So yeah, I

Greg Cope White 44:52

actually was, yeah, I woke up this morning thinking great. I don't go into the writers room today. That's unusual. We've been in the room for nine months. Yes. So now the holidays are coming up. And we as you know, Hollywood shuts down. So we will begin casting. We'll get some list early December, who's going to play me? You know? I don't know, because he's 18. Do we know him?

Jeff Dwoskin 45:15

Got it? Got it. Yeah, that makes sense. That makes sense. Okay. Oh, that's exciting. So I didn't I didn't realize like, I don't know the entire process, how it all works. So when you said writers room, I didn't know if like, you know, they, you got the first script and you're shooting and you're writing that, you know, that kind of thing is,

Greg Cope White 45:31

that's a way to do it. Certainly, that's the normal way. You know, I've written on shows where you're shooting one episode, and then on down on the soundstage, and we're back in the writers room, polishing the next week's episode and working on the future scripts. So now COVID gave us a chance to sometimes write all of our shows at once for we go and shoot them. There's some benefits to that. There's some hard things you know, we've clearly we might do some rewrites once we meet the actors and hear their strengths and weaknesses. Some people are some actors are better at comedy than others. And we're a dramedy. So most people have a little drama, a little comedy, we'll see what we find. I'm excited to see who we find that I have to, like I said, I'm relishing every step of this. So as sad as I was to see the room, and last night, I was my boyfriend and I were talking about it. I'm just still so excited that that even happened. I'm going to be dining out on those stories for the rest of my life. It's so

Jeff Dwoskin 46:27

great. I'm so happy about it. What's the timeline? Do you think of like, what would be the normal timeline? If all goes well, it gets a good casting, when would they start shooting and when would Netflix maybe start to air it is a year out

Greg Cope White 46:40

about a year out. So what we'll do is, depending on where we shoot, if we're shooting in a warm enough climate, we can be shooting in March of 2023. And probably a six month shoot, and then we can be editing along the way, and then get that ready for probably early 2020. For that Netflix because you know they have a strategy on when they release things and, and what's popular and, and hopefully they'll love us and will they'll think highly enough of us to give us a big launch. I don't know, I like what we've written.

Jeff Dwoskin 47:12

I'm sure it's amazing. If the book is any indicator of the awesomeness of the TV show, then it is sure to be amazing. So I'm excited for

Greg Cope White 47:21

it. And Jeff, I definitely am aware of how fortunate I am to have lived the experience, written the book, and now get to write on the TV show. I don't take that for granted at all.

Jeff Dwoskin 47:33

We'll talk after will start to write a book about me in the podcast.

Greg Cope White 47:38

Hey, I'm gonna get you out. We'll get you an outline in just a couple of days. Yeah.

Jeff Dwoskin 47:41

Is this show called the pink marine or just it is but I

Greg Cope White 47:45

don't know that you never know if they're gonna change it or what? So right now in my mind, it certainly is. But if something tests better hard to imagine something testing better than being Marine, but it's so great. I know. And it's an ensemble show just like the book. It's not. It's not just my story. We're telling old stories,

Jeff Dwoskin 48:02

that probably gives us some good legs for multiple seasons and all that kind of stuff as well. So awesome. Thanks for hanging out with me. This was so cool. I loved hearing all about this.

Greg Cope White 48:11

Well, thanks for your great questions. I I appreciate all that I love that you were so interested. And I really appreciate your your reading the book and the things that you latched on to. It sounds like you took away some of the things that I really wanted to get across.

Jeff Dwoskin 48:26

Wow, thank you for writing it and allowing me to do that. Because that was it's always fun to be able to dive into other people's worlds. And it was great. I feel like I said earlier, it's like it's reading to me has always been a little bit of a chore. And I had your book sitting out drove my wife crazy, because she doesn't like think sitting out but I was like no, no. And I would sit down and I would just it was a great opportunity just to kind of read through every one of the chapters just was boom, boom, boom, it was great.

Greg Cope White 48:53

Well shout out to my editor, Nicole Colombo, she is fantastic and was a great partner to work with because that's, again, those are skills that I didn't come in with. So I really relied on her support and her brain because pacing is an important thing. Like you just said, you know some chapters are short, I work with young writers with the Writers Guild has a terrific program. If you're out there and you're a military veteran, please apply the Writers Guild has a year long mentorship program, and military veterans audition or write something to get in there in and they work with working writers in Hollywood for a year on shaping a script and then they get to go out and pitch it. So got a terrific class I'm working with this year. It's a trick you get organized. And just like you said, you want to turn your podcast into a book, get organized, get a beat sheet out, get an outline and and you'll understand patient understand what when the chapter needs to be short. Just like in a movie. There's a reason that we write scripts to pace.

Jeff Dwoskin 49:51

Right. Exactly. i This has been amazing. I can't thank you enough. It's so enjoyable.

Greg Cope White 49:56

Thank you so much. And I thank you.

Jeff Dwoskin 49:58

All right, how amazing was Greg Cope White? Check out his memoir, the pink marine you can find it at the pink marine.com All Greg goodness can be found there is movies you can get on Netflix and keep an eye out for the pink marine when it becomes a series on Netflix. How exciting. Is that? A little behind the behind the scenes pretty cool stuff. All right. Well, I'm excited even though I'm just realizing what the interview over that means. Episode 218 has come to an end. Where does the time go? Well, I thank again, my amazing guest, Greg Cope White. And of course, I want to thank all of you for coming back week after week. It means the world to me, and I'll see you next time.

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