#350 Golden Girls, Disco Divas, and Pop Culture Legends: Jim Colucci and Frank DeCaro Take the Stage

Jeff Dwoskin 0:02

All right, everyone. I'm excited to introduce you to my two guests today. Another it's gonna be amazing. I got two guys. Usually only have one guest guys. So today is it's double, double the fun. And we got Jim Colucci, Frank to Cairo takaro Joe DeCaro was right. I did so impressed. Frank taquero, all right, there we are diving deep these. They're both authors, both pop culture abundance. I list off all their books, but then I'd have to. We won't have time for the interview. We'll get to the books as we get to the books. But they have covered Will and Grace, The Golden Girls on the family, The Love Boat, disco, drag. I mean dead people's cookbooks. I mean, like everything we got, we got, there's so much. What's up, guys? How

Frank DeCaro 0:55

you doing? I like the dead people cookbook bringing up the rear. I like that. I feel good about that. So

Jim Colucci 1:01

all going to end up in that someday,

Frank DeCaro 1:04

not soon, I hope I

Jeff Dwoskin 1:06

feel like I'd like to go over Betty White lines first. It's a video that I found that you both did. The funny thing about it was, it was like, oh, and she's 88

Jim Colucci 1:23

Yeah. I mean, can you, can you believe that was how long ago that was? I mean, now that she would be 102 going on 103 so 15 years ago. Can you believe

Frank DeCaro 1:33

it? We had such a good time making that video. And it was a spoof of that song, white lines, which was about cocaine, of course, but we did it about Betty White lines, meaning the great lines. We've heard her say on television. And so that was, was what it wasn't. Jim decided, I think I came up with the title, and then that was the I stepped away, and Jim wrote the whole song. And so I was, yeah, we were, we were tickled. And our friend Craig Otto, who was a filmmaker, decided to make this video with us, and he's the third golden girl in it. Not

Jim Colucci 2:10

so talented as a filmmaker, crazy talent. We, of course, you can tell, maybe you can't tell, that we did it with, like, literally zero budget. I think we must have spent a couple $100 on the whole thing on props, and he made it look so amazing. So, yeah, that video went viral because it looked so good. And it, you know, it was on, like, Showbiz Tonight, a bunch of others, like

Frank DeCaro 2:30

the today show tune or something. But I have to say, back in the day, viral might have meant hundreds of 1000s of views. It's not like today, where it's like, I put it up an hour ago. It's got 7 million views. You know, it's not, it was not, yeah, that thing on Tiktok, we should, but, yeah, it was pretty funny to to record this cover version and and then do it. And hopefully we were one of the reasons that helped get Betty White as the host of Saturday Night Live, right? I mean, it was before that. It was, yeah, during the campaign to get

Jim Colucci 3:08

her on Saturday Night Live. So that's why it's very timely when it says 88 years you know, she had just turned 88 that January. There had been all of this groundswell of stuff that she was having this comeback where she had that Snickers commercial and she got honored at the Golden Globes all in January and February, and that's when we made the video. We made it in like March and April, and then in May, she did SNL, so yeah, it was all leading up to that

Frank DeCaro 3:33

at that moment, did you know you'd someday sit in her living room with her dog at your feet? That already happened?

Jim Colucci 3:39

No, I did my interviews for the Golden Girls book in 2006 plus. I had interviewed Betty before that as well.

Jeff Dwoskin 3:47

Yeah, I thought it was hilarious, and it's funny. Betty White is one of those actresses. It's always been old, like I was what I mean, like I was watching an old Dean Martin roast, and they were all making fun of Betty White for being 50.

Frank DeCaro 4:03

Well, 50 was decrepit back in the day, you know, but she

Unknown Speaker 4:07

would go on to double that.

Frank DeCaro 4:09

That was half her career. That was like the Midway

Jim Colucci 4:12

It wasn't even the midway point. It was the beginning. Because really, she only went on The Mary Tyler Moore Show after she turned 50, and so that's where we all know her from Mary Tyler Moore. And after, although she did all this incredible work in live television, LA, and she did some game show stuff, people don't know her from that stuff. We know her from Mary Tyler Moore, Golden Girls, Hot in Cleveland, the movies like The proposal, that's all the later stuff, yeah, and a little Match Game, I have to say, okay, but that was also, those were also, but it was

Frank DeCaro 4:44

amazing to me that you've sat and we've both interviewed someone who's on a stamp. You know, it's like she's going to be on a stamp next year. So it's, it's that you don't get that too often. You know, where someone you. Interviewed is that much of an icon.

Jeff Dwoskin 5:03

I interviewed someone who was on a panel was at the Smithsonian Institute. One of her costumes from one of her shows was in the Smithsonian Institute. I'm like, yeah, like, oh my god, that's amazing. Who was that? I knew you were gonna say that. I didn't even know I was gonna bring it up. I have to bring it up. I'm going to just have to edit out. You ask.

Frank DeCaro 5:26

That's okay. I couldn't remember the name Ben Platt again today. Every time I do an interview, I want to mention Ben Platt. I can't think of Ben Platt, and I'll be in the shower. Go Ben Platt. You know it's it's just, for some reason it

Jim Colucci 5:37

makes you think of Ben Platt when shower bubbles. I thought we were going to get an intimate confession

Frank DeCaro 5:44

there. No, there is truly no intimate confession. No, he plays the Ethel Merman disco album before his concerts, one of one or two tracks. So I mentioned that in an interview I did, and I could not come up with the name, but the interviewer knew, so it was okay, but

Jeff Dwoskin 6:01

very cool. Very cool. Alright, so obviously you have, I'm assuming you both love the Golden Girls, but like, as we all do, but Jim, I know you've written two books, yes, on the Golden Girls, the cue Guide To The Golden Girls and Golden Girls forever. So, right?

Frank DeCaro 6:22

We'll go to New York Times bestseller, The New Golden Girls forever. I have to say that. Sorry, I'm by contract. I have to say the New York Times bestseller, Golden Girls forever. Go ahead. I'm sorry. No, I

Jeff Dwoskin 6:34

was remiss to leave that up. There was. So what makes you decide? How do you decide? Because you've also done on the family, which we'll talk about, will in the grace, doing The Love Boat. Now, you know, like, what makes you decide this is something I'm just gonna go head first into?

Jim Colucci 6:53

Well, it's really the Golden Girls, even though it wasn't my first book was the impetus for writing books at all, because having grown up and being old before the internet, when there'd be a new show like The Golden Girls, which premiered when I was just turning 16, there was nothing but like the TV Guide, question and answer column to get information about shows. There were very few places. There was no internet. You just rely on whatever you could read in your newspaper.

Frank DeCaro 7:19

It was again, a Parade Magazine, you know, profile, yes, and they'd

Jim Colucci 7:23

all be so short. And then occasionally a book would be written about a TV show, and you could get the book, but a lot of times the books were also quickly and were cheaply written or and weren't very good. And so I always, when I started writing better entertainment, writing articles for magazines like TV Guide. I always wanted to do longer form and really do a deep dive into a show I love, and the first show that with the B would be the Golden Girls. So I had a book proposal for the Golden Girls ready to go out to publishers with when I was approached to write a book about Will and Grace, and I said my second favorite show, yes, so I ended up doing Will and Grace first, but that was great because it gave me, then the credibility to go out and pitch a Golden Girls book. And the reason there ended up being two Golden Girls books is because, I mean, we are still not done with ageism and misogyny in our culture, but I do think things have gotten better, even since the eternal of the millennium, when I'm talking about originally, because when I first went out with Golden Girls book proposals in about 2004 so many publishers would say, why would we want to publish a book about a show about old ladies that it's been off the air for at this point 10 years. Now, it's been off the air for many more than 10 years. And so we would, I would get that reaction. There would be that built in ageism and misogyny that's and also publishing people love to brag they know nothing about television. So there'd be a snobbery and and it took a while. And the reason I ended up writing the Q guide first is because the most amenable to publishing a book. Was a gay and lesbian publisher, LGBT publisher, Allison books, and they had this new guide book series called The Q guides, which would talk about LGBT aspects of shows of there was another line that was about vacation spots, blah, blah, blah, but about TV shows in this case. And so the cube Guide is a guide to the show that really highlights the LGBT elements of the show, which there are many, when you actually go back and count, there are many episodes that have a gay storyline, or at least a gay joke or a gay character. There's, it's a lot more than you think. Well,

Frank DeCaro 9:37

it was an early example of what we now call query the culture. Yes, you know where you're really are, like you look at something that's mainstream and meant for everyone, and you explain why it's so important to the queer community. And that was, that was a queue in the queue guys, you know, but 20 some years ago

Jim Colucci 9:55

now, oh, gosh, this was 2004 so, yeah, 20 years. Wasn't

Jeff Dwoskin 10:00

there an original gay character in the beginning? There

Jim Colucci 10:04

was in the pilot, Coco, the gay the house boy, the gay house boy. And there's a whole story to behind Coco about how actually NBC claims, and I honestly find it a little hard to believe. But the executives told me this directly, so I quoted them so you if you believe it, that they actually commissioned the show to have a gay character. And the reason why I find that hard to believe is because just about the same time, in the mid 80s, during the AIDS crisis, during a particular home, particularly homophobic time, and a backlash against the community because of AIDS, gays were not exactly very popular on in pop culture, and there were other shows that were considered themselves daring by writing even a gay guest star character, and then the character would often be played very stereotypically. It was really the Dark Ages. And so the idea that NBC specifically said, and we want a gay character, sounds to me like it's somebody doing some revisionist history, but the executives swear that's true. The reason why it could be true is because the idea for the Golden Girls actually arose from NBC, which is also atypical, because if you know about television, you know that writers, creators usually come to the Network or to a studio with a pitch for a show with a script, they have to sell it to the network, so it usually originates with the writer. In this case of the Golden Girls, everything about it was atypical. The fact that it was a show that got on the air about old ladies was atypical, and still would be today, unfortunately. But the idea actually arose from NBC, where they had done a presentation, and they had Selma diamond and Doris Roberts doing some shtick at the presentation, and they said, said, Look at this. These old ladies are funny. Let's do a show about old ladies. And it kind of took off from there, and they brought it to Susan Harris. So it could be true that they said to Susan Harris, hey, put a gay character in there. But what ended up happening was, ironically, another LGBT favorite and a huge ally of the community, Estelle Getty, who was not supposed to be a regular character, who was supposed to be recurring character, and she appeared in the pilot, was so good in the pilot and stole the show so much that everyone agreed looking at the pilot, okay, she needs to stay full time. And now that there are five of them, this house is getting too crowded. There are too many voices to service. This guy needs to go. He didn't really have anything to do. And then, you know, you think about it too. If they're really struggling, old ladies who need to live together financially because of financial reasons, how are they affording this guy staying there? There's, there were whole other justifications, a whole other list of justifications for getting rid of Coco. So Coco got mostly cut from the pilot. There's a little bit of him still there that they couldn't cut. But yeah, he disappeared. So it started out on an LGBT footing and and the show continued on that path ever since, even without Coco,

Frank DeCaro 12:56

they made up for it, sir, they did. You mentioned very quickly, though, you mentioned Selma diamond and Roberts, so the bailiff from Night Court and the mother from Everybody Loves Raymond?

Jim Colucci 13:08

Well, at the point, at the time, was the secretary of Remington, Steele,

Frank DeCaro 13:11

right? But I mean, for looking back now, were the input there a little bit of stick at a company presentation and a network presentation is what led to the Golden Girls, which I think is such one of those pop culture tidbits, that you're just like, wait a minute, and then you find, you know, but, and

Jim Colucci 13:30

there are so many reasons why that would never happen today, and almost really wouldn't have happened then either. And that's where you have to give credit to some of the visionary executives who were at NBC at the time, because I, believe me, I seldom use the words visionary and executives together same sentence. But in this case, Brandon tartakoff and Warren Littlefield and some executives who were there really, you know, they saw magic, and they said, why shouldn't we have more of this? And that's what executives should be doing. But they're often fear based, and they don't in this case, they were willing to buck the rules. Hey, old ladies on TV, it hasn't been done. Let's do

Frank DeCaro 14:04

it. And they did, and it worked. They were like the last of the impresarios that have been other

Jim Colucci 14:09

impresarios. There have been other people who have good taste and have gotten some shows on the air against the odds, not since then. But it is very it's more common to for networks to follow a fear pattern and not be very visionary. So, yeah, it all had to happen in the exact same order. And it had to happen with those stars being funny in front of the right people. It just it. It's a miracle. Whatever happened, the miracle anything

Frank DeCaro 14:33

ever happens in show business, that anything works out and it's good and and is they allow it to happen. You know, it's, it's kind of amazing.

Jeff Dwoskin 14:42

I mean, it seems like and when you look back, well, first, let me say, Actually, I wanted to say it's funny that they were hesitant to even let you write the book, or that you had trouble finding someone. Because, like when you think to me, like the Golden Girls, it's so. So still, I mean, like, revered, I mean, it's like, it's, it seems like it would be a no brainer to write about, like the publishing people,

Jim Colucci 15:08

the publishing people were hesitant because they really publishing people loved, as I said, brag about how little they know about TV and TV books are generally not given full support of a publisher. They kind of almost do them like they have to, and then they throw them in the back of the Barnes and Noble and the section that's usually in the back of the store, and they don't promote them, and it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy that TV books don't sell, which is one of the mantras that publishing people have had for a while. And so I think that you add on top of that the fact that they're not crazy, that they even have a TV publishing division. And then you add, hey, by the way, this book's about old ladies. If you didn't watch the show, you think it's just about old ladies, and it went off the year, 10 years ago. Hey, how about now? So you know, they it just was, again, a lack of vision, a lack of understanding, built in biases that we all grew up with, and you just have to find the right people who get it

Frank DeCaro 16:03

well, in the vaulted position that the Golden Girls hold now. Wasn't true, wasn't much, but it's all it's part of it, not, certainly not all of it, but part of it is because of Jim's book, taking it seriously, and people connecting on on cruises and it cons and, you know, really, I mean, I can't think of another sitcom that could handle a whole con by itself. It's hard you think

Jim Colucci 16:30

of Star Trek and other shows that are genre. They're not sitcoms. But yes, I mean, the thing that I saw one of the reasons that I wanted to do the Golden Girls book, other than it being my favorite show, and I would get to meet all the ladies, which was my reason number one. But Reason number two is that writing for TV Guide and other places, and writing for television myself, I can see what's popular, and I kind of get a drum beat out there what's popular. And I was amazed, because I thought all through the 90s, when I watched The Golden Girls on lifetime, I thought I'm the only person who really cares about the show, about old ladies, I was buying into the negativity. You know why it's so funny that they have it on lifetime, and I'm watching it constantly and loving it so much. And then I would hear other people saying the same thing, and I think, Wait a minute, I'm not the only one watching this on lifetime. And then you'd read statistics or ratings from lifetime about how it was such a high rated program for them. And I saw, wait a minute, this show is not dying off in popularity after it went off in first run, which is the usual pattern. Usually shows are popular while they're on the air first run, and then as their audiences fade away, some of them sometimes die off. The shows kind of go down. I guess it has a half life, a natural decline. Golden Girls wasn't doing that. It was actually going up. And the only other show I could ever think of that had done that, that had fans who were not even born during the first run, was I Love Lucy. And I mean, to this day, I think I would add a few more shows to the list because of streaming we now have. I know my young nieces, who are 18, have watched the office and friends and stuff like that, and they weren't around for the first run. So we now, if you have a few more shows to put on that list, but at the time that I was pitching this in 2004 one of the things I would say in the pitch are there are only two sitcoms in history that I can say have more fans now than they did then, Lucy and Golden Girls. Don't you want to be part of that?

Jeff Dwoskin 18:17

Interestingly, they tried to bring Lucy back during the stint day and like, wasn't her last sitcom. Part of it because of the success of The Golden Girls. They're like, Oh, it was

Jim Colucci 18:27

partly. It was partly. It had something to do with the Golden Girls. Lucy was kicking the tires on doing a new sitcom in the 80s, and Aaron Spelling, who produced Love Boat and a bunch of other shows, but never comedies, always. I mean, Love Boat was comedic, but they were always one hours and mostly action. Aaron Spelling always wanted to do a sitcom, and he knew Lucy through social circles, and so they had a deal, let's do a sitcom. And it was life with Lucy. Their show ended up premiering in 1986 one year after the Golden Girls, but as they were developing it, Lucy said. Lucy was friends with Betty through their mothers, and she was friends with B they did the MAME film together, so she knew that the ladies and so Lucy said, as they were developing life with Lucy, I want to see how it's done today. I haven't done a multi cam in, you know, 15 years at that point. And so she went to a Golden Girls taping, and legend has it that she sat in the front row and that the audience wouldn't laugh until they saw her laugh. So it actually was a distraction in that taping, because the audience was so obsessed with the fact that Lucy was sitting with them that they weren't was reacting to the properly, to the material they were waiting to see first, if Lucy would have

Frank DeCaro 19:36

and then then they would laugh. What was that? Okay? Thank you.

Jim Colucci 19:39

Lucy laughs. Okay. At that point, with the deep voice and so, yeah. So there is a connection. And they actually wanted Lucy to go on the Golden Girls and make a guest spot, and they wrote a role that they offered to her. And if you know the show, you know it's in the first season, the role ended up being played by Polly holiday it's Rose's sister, Lily. Was gone blind, and they offered it to Lucy. But thing is, Lucy had just done the the TV movie, stone pillow, playing a homeless woman taking a dramatic turn, and she was very proud of herself. However, her fans were annoyed that she did something non comedic, and so she vowed that the next thing she did, wait,

Frank DeCaro 20:18

wait. So stone pillow is not a comedy believer, I laugh when I watch it, sorry.

Jim Colucci 20:23

So Lucy vowed that the next thing she did had to be really funny, and the the role of Rose's blind sister, Lily didn't get the jokes in the episode. She wasn't the one with the punch lines, it was everybody else. Lily was just the very serious catalyst for conversation. So Lucy turned down the role. So we never got around the golden rings, but she ended up being inspired to do her own show the next season.

Frank DeCaro 20:45

And we did binge watch life with Lucy, and it's not nearly as bad, actually. Like, what have you imagined? It's not up to, it's not up to your shows. Yeah, it's, well,

Jim Colucci 20:55

it's not up to, I Love Lucy. It's probably about the same as some of the later Lucy.

Frank DeCaro 20:59

Maybe here's Lucy, not the Lucy show, it's the Lucy show is better. But so kind of arguments, this is what we argue about in our house, but the Lucy show is fifth as the only sidekick that counts. You know, that's us.

Jeff Dwoskin 21:14

So, so, yeah, so, I mean, well, I guess the Gordon Golden Girls, in a way, brought us to get Marcia Posner Williams introduced us. Yeah, she worked on The Golden Girls. I She's wonderful. She's amazing. We

Jim Colucci 21:29

love her. We love her. And, yeah, that was one. Every time I write one of these books, yeah, I get at least one great friendship out of it, possibly more. And it's not necessarily the person you think it's going to be going in, because I didn't know Martha all going in, so I didn't expect to hit it off as well as I did with her. I She was only a name on the screen at first to me, you know, you fantasize that, you fantasize that you're going to be Arthur's best friend, or, you know, you go to whatever. And although I loved B and I had a great day with her, yeah, you there are just some people who really are as much of a fan of the thing that they worked on, and also have an appreciation for it for its greatness. And I bond with them and that, and then other things. And I've had angels like that. I always call them on every book. There were others on the Golden Girls. Lex passer is one of the directors of the show, and Isabel Omero, so some wonderful people who really were are like show historians, because even at the time, they knew they were onto something special. And that doesn't always happen in television, because there's usually the pressure to just get this episode done, get it out the door. We got another one to do. It's like cranking out the sausage. And sometimes you don't have a time, have a perspective, that you can step back and say, Wait, we're making something special here. But luckily, with the Golden Girls. And just about every show that I've written a book about, there has been at least one person that I've been become friends with, be who really has the same love for the show as I do.

Frank DeCaro 22:49

Yeah, I've kind of had that the I'll meet someone in the process and and I'll be like, I have to be friends with this person. And so I had with the drag book that I did, I became friends with Dina, Martina, who's one of my favorite, really out there, drag queens, performance artists, kind of just this brilliant mind and deranged. And then with disco, my new book, Corey day, who is not maybe the name recognition may not be there, but she was the lead singer of Dr buzzards original Savannah band, that song, sure, Shay la femme, and really an early disco architect. And I hit it off with her so well that I was like, we're going to be pals. And so we, I text her and stuff, and I've kept in touch with her, and I'm not one to usually do that, but I just there was no going once I met this woman, there was no going back. It was like, No, I need this woman in my life. So, so we've seen and also, at the first signing, she bought eight copies of the book to give away, and it's a $55 book. I was like, I love you, lady. It's like, This is amazing.

Jim Colucci 24:00

$55 is not that much for a holiday present. If you really love

Frank DeCaro 24:04

yes, if you did buy disco, buy this book, you definitely would buy disco. Love your friends, $55 worth, don't you? And they're cheaper if you go on to that evil site that we buy things late at night from and they're there the next day, and that, we shall not mention their name, Amazon, but, you know, it is what it is, but, but, yeah, it was, it was fun, and I got to meet That's why, I mean, you know people, part of you does it, does these books for altruistic reasons, because you you want to share your enthusiasm for something, whether it's disco or the Golden Girls or The Love Boat or drag, but it's also that you a have something to say about it, and can bring something to the party that's original and also for yourself. Reasons that you're dying to meet these people and learn more about it from them firsthand, as opposed to just reading about it yourself, or just, you know, being the, just the the spectator you really get to sort of go into your TV, go into your your radio, you know and and hear and see and meet the people who made an art form or made a project or a genre or whatever that that you have tremendous respect. I speaking of for me, and I can probably the same way you're you do these things because you're like you want to say, this deserves more respect than you're giving it. You should know about this. This is these people are really talented, and you're kind of not taking it as seriously as you should, and you need to. So I

Jim Colucci 25:55

do feel that way about the love book. I mean, I I didn't feel that, that I needed to justify Will and Grace at the time, because it was on the air, it was a huge hit. Everyone knew it was the first show created to have LGBT characters. So I didn't need to tell anybody who knew, anybody who was at all in on the know that this was an important show. That was a given. So that was an easier what it was with golden version. Certainly, I did have to do that. And I think, but even so, by the time Golden Girls forever came out in 2016 I think that there were more people who got that already. Not like now it's an industry, no, but in 2004 it was really a struggle. By 2016 I think it had grown enough that people, some people, knew with Love Boat. I think that Love Boat, at least when I started researching the book, was still a punch line, and it might still be today, but I think that people don't appreciate a what a huge phenomenon it was in its day, in the era of three networks, and it was on Saturday night, and it was escapist television that would routinely get like 60% of the people watching TV, watching it. It was just, you know, a huge phenomenon, and that it was a cultural ambassador. It brought the world into our living rooms, and it brought American characters and actors abroad. But really, the thing that I want to preserve most about it is what a time capsule it was of performances and performers, because it was situated just by the decades that it was running in the 70s and 80s, in this time when two generations, or more than two generations, were crossing like ships in the night, where the old timers from the 20s and 30s movies from the Golden Age of Hollywood, many of whom were still alive and wanted to do some work and keep up their insurance, or maybe just be seen again on the screen. And they knew that the Love Boat would make them look great with great hair and makeup, and they would cross paths with some of the people who were in their teens and 20s, then and are now some of the biggest stars in the world, and you could have them on the same episode. And so it's this weird pop culture mixing bowl, fever dream of people showing up together. But it also is a great time capsule, because it has captured performances by Anne Miller and Della Reese and Ethel Merman and Carol Channing. And that's in one episode. Then, you know, with Ginger Rogers singing another one. And some of these people, meaning

Frank DeCaro 28:22

of Lana Turner and Ricky Martin. Oh, is on the line, yes,

Jim Colucci 28:26

exactly. Talk about that's a great example. Thank you. Of, of Jeff,

Speaker 1 28:30

that's the Linda Pearl Episode. That's the Linda Pearl Episode, and it's, that's

Frank DeCaro 28:34

what we call it. We don't call it the Ricky Martin episode.

Jeff Dwoskin 28:37

That was not just Ricky. Ricky Martin was like two feet tall. I mean, he was like, Menudo. Well, he

Jim Colucci 28:43

was, yeah, like 14. It was it. That's an incredible example, because it's a set on a real cruise. So this cast really did get to bond with each other. If they shot on the soundstage, sometimes they wouldn't even really meet very much. But when they went on real cruises, they really went on real cruises together and got to know each other. And so, yeah, there's an episode where Lana Turner, I'm not the spoiler alert, however, 3040, years later, Lana Turner is pretending to be a grandmother, and she really is a lonely old lady, and she meets up with Menudo, who are playing, I don't know if they're remember, if they're actually playing Menudo, or they're just playing a singing group or a soccer group. I don't even know why, what their bond was, but she's teaching them how to play soccer. And they're like, Wow. I mean, because you know, old ladies who, in real life at that time, were frail and had trouble walking, are usually soccer coaches to young Latin boys, because young Latin boys usually know very little.

Frank DeCaro 29:37

Well. You also know that all the soccer scenes were cut out of invitation block Atlanta, all Atlanta soccer

Jim Colucci 29:44

stains in that Douglas sir, she was one hell of a goalie. And, you know, with that really, with that up do that was lacquered that she could really do a header, but she kept the balls out. Well, yeah, she was great. I forgot about that. That's true. So my, my favorite. Thing about that with the Love Boat is that I wanted to, of course, get quotes from all these people who were on the Love Boat for the book. And I wanted to talk to Ricky Martin, who's, of course, always very busy. Sometimes it's hard when the people are now the huge stars, because they don't have time anymore to talk, to reminisce. But I was at a Television Critics convention panel for the Versace, the American Crime Story, Versace, and when Ricky was playing, uh, Versace, boyfriend and Antonio. And so I'm in, I'm sitting in the accent. I'm sitting in the audience at the press conference. And I had tried a few times to contact Ricky's publicist, and I, we hadn't been able to set anything up, but I I knew that at the end of the press conference all of the critics would, they call it a scrum, everybody just gathers around the talent with their recorders, their tape recorders, in their face, and tries to throw in a couple extra questions before the talent walks off stage. And so after the press conference was over, I joined the scrum around Ricky, and I managed to catch his public's eye. And I said, Can I just after these people ask their scrum questions, can we just pull them aside for a minute and I can ask him about The Love Boat, just I just need a quick quote? And she said, Okay, so I got my my brief moment alone with Ricky, and what I had been noticing all through the press conferences is just how tough he looked. You know, he's hot, and he looked really hot in like a like a bear way, or a biker way, the beard leather guy looked like a letter man, sorry, like a leather outfit, like the beard. And he just looked really Butch and tough and intimidating. And so I get him backstage, and I have my moment with him. And I said to him, Ricky, I need to ask you about the Love Boat. And before I could say anything, he clutched the pearls like this, and he

Frank DeCaro 31:46

went, I got to work with Lana Turner,

Jim Colucci 31:51

and I thought, Oh, that is great. You know, big bottom. Well, anyway, I love that he cleaned out, but it was awesome that he had an appreciation he was only a little kid, and he said at the time he didn't know who she was. And I understand he grew up in Puerto Rico. He was a kid watching old Lana Turner movies, but I love that now he is such an appreciation for it, and is so proud that he can look at that clip of himself opposite Lana Turner in a scene that's pretty amazing to play soccer from Lana everybody learns.

Frank DeCaro 32:20

You go to the best. You go to the best when you want to learn some. How do you think Sarah Jamie, I'm sure yes, wasn't for my mother. She's ashamed of

Jim Colucci 32:29

her mother. She learned it from

Frank DeCaro 32:30

a lot of Germans between Fauci movies. We're just going to sit here and go down a Douglas Cirque rabbit hole. I'm sorry. No,

Jeff Dwoskin 32:39

it's amazing. I I actually because I just interviewed Linda pearl. So I, I just watched that episode cross dressing Linda pearl.

Jim Colucci 32:51

Dress up. Yes, Linda Pearl, to prove a feminist point about getting hired as equally as a man. But did Linda tell you the fun stuff about Lana Turner, and who was the other diva in that episode, who was playing the MO and Baxter. Did she tell you about Lana Turner and an ambassador? No, it's spelled. So they both were on this cruise, and Lana made it a point of coming to dinner just a little bit late and making a grand entrance. And so, you know, everybody's waiting on her. They're all sitting at dinner, and Lana comes in and Oh, darling. I'm so sorry. I'm late. And she said you could see that that did not sit very well with Anne. So before dessert was finished being served, and got up and made a grand exit. I'm sorry, but I have to leave. And she said that every night, their entrances and exits got closer and closer together because they would outdo each other of who could come to dinner last and make the grand entrance, and who could leave first and make

Frank DeCaro 33:50

the grand that's why we revere them today. We do. It's because they were that petty. That's why we love

Jeff Dwoskin 33:57

Yeah, I am looking forward to your Love Boat book i I've had Isaac gopher and doc on the podcast. Oh, great. And I can't get Vicky. Vicky keeps saying, No, I and so, so I love it. And anytime I'm interviewing someone, I always ask them about their time on The Love Boat, and I you learn, like you just mentioned, like some people actually get to go on a cruise, and most of it's a sound stage, which is like, right? It's like finding out Santa's not real when you

Frank DeCaro 34:33

what? Oh, December, take that back. What

Jim Colucci 34:37

a great time to drop that. Spoiler alert. Jeff, thanks,

Frank DeCaro 34:44

Sorry, friend. He's gonna bring my disco book to all the good boys and girls. If Santa doesn't do I guess you'll have to buy it online. Okay, sorry, no,

Jeff Dwoskin 34:52

that's, let's, I mean, we've talked. I mean, has Jim taken up most of that? Let's talk about,

Frank DeCaro 34:59

I. It. I'm just furniture. It's fine.

Jeff Dwoskin 35:04

It's okay. All right. So the cute guys are the Golden Girls and Golden Girls forever. But now let's say, like the brand new just came out, disco music, movies and mania under the mirror ball. Stop

Frank DeCaro 35:19

the dismount. Thank you for saying the the subtitle perfectly. I can give you a good segue here. Jim and I both interviewed Donna pescow For our books on the same day. And so I did an hour with her about Saturday Night Fever. And then I was like, please hold Miss Pascal. Here's Jim to talk about The Love Boat. And then he talked to her about her appearances on The Love Boat. So yeah, there was, there was crossover.

Jim Colucci 35:46

Well, we were both trapped in the 70s, doing the research for this book. And so it was, not only was it fun, but we had a lot of overload. There were a lot of times that there were people who both did a disco thing and were on the Love Boat. And there were a lot of times I was interviewing people about The Love Boat, and it would come up, oh, you know when I used to go to 54 back in the 70s, and I'm like, please hold

Frank DeCaro 36:04

for Frank, there was a doubt. And there was one time where I couldn't go to an event because I was coughing so much, I think I thought you had COVID. I thought I had COVID, and I didn't, but I didn't go. And I thought, well, it's not like he's going to talk to share. Of course, he talks to share.

Jim Colucci 36:20

It was Carol Burnett's 90th birthday party special taping of that. And yeah, Frank was like, if you happen to be able to talk to share,

Frank DeCaro 36:28

because it was a big As if. And yeah, ask her about, ask her about roller skating. She would take over a roller rink in Reseda, out in the valley um in LA and and she would invite all these celebrities, and they would all go to Reseda, which is the strangest place to invite a random suburb, the random suburb. But they would all go and they and it was like, if you could get on that list, it was a huge thing. And by word of mouth, it became this crazy roller disco version of studio 54 where celebrities were on wheels and so but he talked, I said about that. So

Jim Colucci 37:11

back to the taping of the Carol Burnett special. A lot of times at these things on red carpets, there's not enough time for the talent to talk to every reporter who's there in the beginning, they were pretty good about getting everybody to come down the carpet. So I did talk to Carol and Julie Andrews, and already my day was made, of course, but share was toward the end. And there were some celebrities who were either running out of time or just didn't want to bother talking to everybody. And they would skip past some of us, and that was getting annoying. Share they were trying. The handlers were trying to skip share past some of us, saying we're running out of time. And share insisted. No, I'm going to talk to everybody who wants to talk to me. And she talked to every single one of us, maybe only for one question's worth, because there wasn't time. But when she came to me, I said, share, I know we're here for Carol. This is going to be the most random question you get asked in a long time. Can you tell me about taking people roller skating in resida back in the 70s? And she didn't, she wasn't non plus at all. It was like, oh yeah. So she just told me the whole story that they would go just, you know, just go roller skating and receipt. It was hilarious.

Frank DeCaro 38:10

And one of the people who would go there with her was Wesley, you were, who's from Land of the Lost. He was the heartthrob from Land of the Lost. This is where my pop culture brain explodes. You know, it's like you're I talked to him about it. They said, Oh yeah, share. And I used to go and do and it just would be like any sentence that, oh yeah, share and I and you mean share, as in, share is a mind to me as a mind blowing thing to have someone say. But he was telling me about it as well. And so now, every time we see a sign that says recena, we go, hey, it's Resina. Gotta go to bad impressions while we're driving past. So

Jeff Dwoskin 38:52

two things, one is to tie in your Will and Grace and share. I just saw the clip of Jack Hayes when he's talking to share, but the you know, he doesn't know he's talking to share, and

then she slaps him again. That's the that is so great. And then share has

Frank DeCaro 39:16

a Golden Girls connection. Do you know about this?

Unknown Speaker 39:19

I do. Why don't you share with everyone?

Jim Colucci 39:21

Well, not only did they did Estelle play Sonny Bono in one episode, and did Sonny Bono, they played Sonny and Cher. Actually, she and Dorothy played Sonny and cherry in a costume contest, or mother daughter context test, plus Sonny Bono appeared on the show as himself. So those are two connections, but the third connection is that Cher, it was found out by the producers of the show. I don't know who told them. I doubt it was Cher herself, but it was probably someone associated with her the chair back in the VCR days. Like to tape the show and then watch it when she was on her treadmill. And so they heard Cher as a fan. So oh my god, Cher is a fan. Let's get Cher on the show. So they said a couple. Of times they reached out with with story ideas or characters, and they wouldn't hear back, or they'd hear back. No, it was getting the scheduling was getting hard, and they ended up writing this character for sure. And I'll tell you who played it ended up playing in a minute, and it was Dorothy's sister in law, the one who was married to a cross dressing brother, Phil. And just they they wrote it for share, and then just, is that they wrote it for share and share never showed up. I don't know if that means they thought they had booked her and she didn't show up, or whether they she just didn't answer the phone when they called. I still don't know what that means, but they were, that's how dedicated they were to having share in this role. They really thought they were going to have her, and at the end, as I said, they said, share never showed up. I don't know what that means, but Brenda Vaccaro ended up playing it. And so everybody remembers Brenda in that role, and she was great. But when I one time at it, this is the best thing one time of day, days Disneyland, I was on a panel talking about the Golden Girls, and when I told that story, like 300 men in the audience all went, did the clutch. He

Frank DeCaro 41:01

said, You know who was originally supposed to play that role. The audience is like waiting, waiting. And he share the whole room. You could watch the wallpaper get peeled off the walls. But yeah, there was such a there was such a collective gasp. Yes, the inhale was pulling wallpaper off the walls. It was shocking to see gay men in unison like that. It was, it was deranged. It was and everybody laughed afterwards, because we all were caught up in our own, oh, my god, I'm so gay. And every, every man in the room who laughed, who who gasped, burst into disturbs, like we are so Jesus, we're gay. It was very, it was a very communal bonding moment

Jim Colucci 41:43

for that audience. So I guess what I'm saying is Cher is my lucky charm. For every book that I write, she's got some connection to everything.

Frank DeCaro 41:48

She's in my drag book, she's in my disco share is everything. We

Jim Colucci 41:52

just didn't do the love, but Sonny

Frank DeCaro 41:55

did. Okay. So, so there's a Bono or an almond somewhere in every one of our book.

Jeff Dwoskin 42:03

So not to blow your mind about Wesley, you were, but I have a picture with me, Wesley, Kathy Coleman and Philip Paley, who played Chaka in a raft, yes, from the Comic Con. Think

Frank DeCaro 42:19

you're dealing with, we have one too.

Jeff Dwoskin 42:23

I was hoping you'd say that it's the greatest when, when I was interviewing Wesley, and he says, Oh, we do this. I'm like, it became my life mission to get that photo. It's and I come home, and I go to my wife, I go look, and this cost me 150 bucks. And she's like, what? And I'm like, No, you don't understand. That's not good. It's a great price.

Jim Colucci 42:48

You need to do wife pricing. Yeah, you do carrot pricing, and you lie how much it was. I think you need to come to your wife home to wear. Look, this cost me 10 bucks. Yeah,

Frank DeCaro 42:56

you can't, you can't let them. There's certain things, no matter who you are, whoever you're married to, man, woman, whatever you really there are certain things that you have to keep secret. And some people keep secret egregious things. Oh, I cheated on you on my business trip. And the rest of us are like, I bought another Pop figure. And you can't know about, you know, it's so it's, it's not quite as bad, you know, I don't know about them, but they get delivered to the they do. I mean that Sam ring camera gives me a ring camera catches the guy putting the box down, but at least it's not Oh, I cheated on you. At least it's just Oh yes. And there's another piece of vinyl that needs to live with us now.

Jeff Dwoskin 43:38

So Frank, Disco, disco. I guess I could ask the same thing about drag your book, drag combing through the big wigs of show business, both published by Rizzoli.

Frank DeCaro 43:50

Rizzoli is good. They're so sweet. I like working with them. So

Jeff Dwoskin 43:55

what? How did you pick these particular coming Hot Off Dead celebrity cookbooks? How did you pick these ridiculous

Frank DeCaro 44:04

idea to another is that no the dead celebrity cookbooks were a lot of fun because I had, when I was working at the radio station at Sirius XM, I had interns, and I never had interns before, and they were so young, and they didn't know what the hell I was talking about. I could have been talking Mandarin Chinese, and they would have understood as much. They didn't know any of the references I was making. And I thought a lot about legacy and why I wanted to keep people's memory alive in a way that was funny and sweet and stuff. So that's how they came about. When I was looking for something else to do, someone, an editor at Rizzoli, said, I think there needs to be a book on drag and I think you should do it. And I thought me, I'm not a drag queen. Why would I want to do this? And the times I have. Played a drag role in a web series or something, I look like one of the far side ladies, you know? I mean, it's not exactly glamorous. So I started thinking about it, and I realized that I had had a front row seat to the most important drag of the last half of the 20th century. I was at wig stock when it was new in the East Village, when that whole scene was coming on. I had seen Jim bailey and Charles Pierce and follow the careers of Charles bush and lip sync up. And I'd seen Flip Wilson talk about Geraldine. I'd seen Mel Milton Berlin drag you know, in a performance. Well, probably the last time he did drag in person. So it was, I was kind of there for a lot of it. And so I was like, I am the right person to do this book. So I did that book, and then someone that I was interviewing in a podcast situation, said one of the drag performers said, you know, we're always the parsley and we're never the main dish. We're always the handful of glitter thrown on at the end, but not taken particularly seriously. And you're doing that. And they kind of started to cry. They got a little weepy over it, over being taken seriously. And I and someone said, Well, that's what you do best you you show respect to people who deserve it but aren't getting it, and you kind of shine a light where it should have been shown all along, but now you're saying, No, you need to pay attention to this. So when I was looking for something else to do, I thought, well, that is what I do best. So I thought, what other topics do I love that deserve to be taken more seriously? And disco presented itself, and I'd loved it as a kid. Never stopped loving it, even though I added I loved punk. I love New Wave. I love, you know, EDM. I love, you know, there's, I got back to loving the American Songbook, and, you know, vocal jazz. So, you know, I like so much stuff. But I thought disco got such a bad rap, and the whole disco sucks thing. And then I started to see, uh, particularly, what galvanized for me was the the Bee Gees documentary, how do you mend a broken heart? And they showed footage of the Disco Demolition night in 1979 in Chicago, where people were invited to bring records by disco artists to be blown up at between two games and and it resulted in this riot, and it was like this toxic masculinity on display, and it reminded me of a maga rally. And I thought, Oh God, this was also racist,

Jim Colucci 47:49

because a lot of the albums people were bringing weren't even disco albums. They just were albums by black artists. Yeah.

Frank DeCaro 47:54

And someone in the in the documentary said it was a racist, homophobic book burning. And I thought, okay, I really have to do disco now. And I learned that disco was a watershed moment for people of color, strong women and the queer community, and we were sort of sold a bill of goods that disco was dead when, in fact, it was just morphing into house music and laying the bedrock for hip hop and electronic dance music, and that it deserved its place on the continuum of American music, and was not this aberration or this awful, you know, funny looking cousin we don't talk about it was as much a vibrant part of of the music scene. And so I wanted to do all that. And then I just started researching it and finding the disco divas and and others who wanted to talk to me. And it was exciting to to get to meet them. Some of them were Gloria Gaynor was when I called her people, they said, Oh yeah, Gloria said, just call her. Here's her number, and you're like, I love you, Gloria. So that was great. Others, you had to really sort of control and chase a little bit, but that, but they made it worth it when you finally did catch up to them. So that was very fun. And I also got to do something that the other disco books didn't do previously. And there have been a lot of disco books, but they've kind of not embraced the pop culture kitsch of it all, and that's my favorite sort of thing. The campier the better. So I was the I'm kind of the first one to look at disco on television. And like very special disco episodes, the Jeffersons or WKRP or Barnaby Jones, buddy Epson, you know, as 1000 he's doing the asshole and Charlie's Angels and all, you know, all these classic TV shows that had disco episodes. And also, I. Identify a disco canon of movies where it's not just Saturday, the big three, Saturday Night Fever, thank God it's Friday, and can't stop the music, the village people movie, it's 17 others that are many of which are so bad, they're wonderful. And you know, then you have to sort of have the the gene for appreciating that, where you can say, you know, I was, I didn't make Jim watch them, because he doesn't really have, he does not follow. When I said that, he said, Well, how was skate town, USA compared to roller boogie? And I said, Well, roller Boogie would have been better if it was worse. And I said, But skate town, USA was worse than roller Boogie, which, of course, made it better, but, and he's looking at me like, you're out of your mind. Oh, I get that book about the love book? No, I know. I know you get it. No, I know, but, but it's that's not your favorite thing necessarily. But I'm like, the worse it is, the cheesier it is, the more I'm like, you know, I would much rather watch. Was it Jennifer or whatever? Yeah, it was. It was like a bargain basement version of Carrie. And there's a part of it set in the same disco that's in. Thank God, it's Friday. And I was like, Oh, my God, it's, it's, she has power over snakes, many of which seem to look rubber, but nevertheless, she has power over snakes and, you know, and skate town, USA, because it's worse than roller boogie. Is so much better than roller boogie. And, you know, I came in, he said, Well, what was it like? And I said, Flip Wilson owns a roller disco. His mother is Geraldine, his drag character. His father is Billy Barney, who played the Firefly on the Bucha loose, okay, little person, and I, and I was like, and you don't think I'm gonna love this movie, I mean, you know, it was like, exactly my kind of movie, because that's a it's just like, that's not, that can't really be the casting. Oh, that's because, and I think Jan Brady is in it, and Ron palillo horse shack is in it. And it's the screen debut of a very sexy Patrick Swayze that that has everything you need in the movie. You know. It's like it's, you know, hooray for important films, you know. But give I'll take skate town, USA over any Best Picture, Oscar winner for enjoyability,

Jeff Dwoskin 52:23

thank God it's Friday as a young Jeff Goldblum

Frank DeCaro 52:28

and Deborah

Jeff Dwoskin 52:31

Winger. And yeah, Deborah Winger. And then, yeah, Donna Summer with the gets her Oscar, and then

Frank DeCaro 52:36

she didn't get to keep the Oscar. Paul Jabbar got the Oscar, and she was mad they do jokes about she in the book, I have an interview with Donna Summer that I did in 1999 and she talked to me, she said, Well, he gets to keep it, but I want it for him. It's like, so I like that, but it's true. You know? I mean, it's, you don't have Donna singing it. It's just another song. But I

Jeff Dwoskin 53:00

don't know why this popped in my head, but when you're talking about hate, loving things that are horrible, all I get thinking of is the Paul in Halloween special. Yeah,

Frank DeCaro 53:09

it's the Paul and Halloween special. And you want to, you want to explain this to young people, and I say you have to understand it was Paul and who was the the center square on the Hollywood Squares Game Show and and flamingly gay, but didn't talk about it, but just this bitter old me. So that's he's the star of the show. Then you get Florence Henderson, the mother from The Brady Bunch. Then you add witchy poo from the Saturday morning show that warped people of my generation called HR Puffin stuff. Then you get the Wicked Witch of the West from the original Wizard of Oz, Margaret Hamilton. Then you add in Pinky Tuscadero from Happy Days, who was fonzie's girlfriend. And then the band KISS. And you put them on a special and you make them sing disco. Lady, okay, so that's why people who are between 50 and 65 now are warped out of their minds, because we that's the crap we were watching growing up and but yeah, and I said, Well, yeah, there are some crossovers now you would Lady Gaga was with Tony Bennett, I said, but you'd have to do Lady Gaga, Tony Bennett, and then add in Carrot Top and Slipknot, you know, it's just like you'd have to put it all in one special for it to be as weird, and then and hold a copy, you know, just throw them together. That's what it would be like. Well, that makes sense. You sing disco this group, you know, it's like, okay, so, yeah, it was, it was the 70s were, were weird, whether it was The Love Boat or the disco era. They were weird and wonderful. And it was the just say yes, decade. And, you know, it was way more fun than the Just Say. No decade of the 80s, I'll tell you that.

Jeff Dwoskin 55:03

So Frank, in addition to your illustrious, illustrious career, also, which also includes working for The Daily Show movie critic, you also worked at in my hometown, the Detroit Free Press and the Detroit News. So I mentioned

Frank DeCaro 55:22

Detroit News was just a blip, because I got mad. I did something you do when you're young. I they somebody didn't like a story I'd written. Who was, I don't know, was the editor in chief or the publisher, whoever, some big person. I got a note saying, why are we not doing this? And the story that they sent me that we should be doing was the most boring thing ever. And I've been doing this stuff that honestly was a little out there. And now as an old fart, I get it. But anyway, it was what I was, the point in my career where you already had someone saying, if you ever get tired of working at the free press, call me. I will. You will work for me the next day. So I did. I got mad. I called the woman, and I said, Hi, I they're making me curious. When do you want me to start? And so I just gave my notice. Oh, my God, were they mad. But I love Detroit. I had a really good time in Detroit because I had been in Colorado for nine months I took the first job that was offered to me when I graduated at Northwestern in Chicago, and it was in a small town in Colorado. It's 1984 it took longer to drive to a Woody Allen movie than to see the Woody Allen movie. And I was like, I gotta get out of here. And so I answered an ad in a magazine for a fashion writer, and and I got the job. I was 23 and I was suddenly a columnist at like, the seventh largest newspaper in the country, and and I so I was at the Free Press for three years, and then three months at the at the news, and then I moved to New York, but I love Detroit is really fun town. And in those days, it was like, you know, downtown Beirut. I mean, it was, you know, it was, it was rough in those in the, you know, in the 80s,

Jeff Dwoskin 57:16

you'd love it. Now, it's amazing now, oh

Frank DeCaro 57:19

yeah, it's amazing. But it's like, you know, and I got some of the people I interviewed at the free press about house music are in the disco book. So it all comes full circle. You You know, the Donna Summer interview I did in 99 is in the disco book because it had never seen the light of day. And, and you can't steal from your you're not plagiarizing if it's from your if it's something you wrote 40 years earlier, I don't think so, or 35 years earlier. So I quoted some of the guys that I'd interviewed in 1987 about house music and techno in Detroit and so it all. And they were everything they said then was as right on about it as could be. So I was, I was lucky to sort of have them, but I almost had forgotten I'd done that. You know, when you do this long enough and you've been writing long enough, you'll be like, Did I ever, did I just like them, or did I interview them? You know, you kind of, you don't always remember when you've been doing it so long, if it was, if it's your, if it's fandom, or if they were one of the people who came on the radio show, or if there was a column you wrote back in the day, or, you know, you'll see somebody on TV and it's like, oh, I auditioned with them for something, you know, it's, it's when you had a long enough career, and you and your memory gets shorter and shorter. It's, you know, it's kind of amazing how many people you cross paths with. I

Jeff Dwoskin 58:46

want it. I want. I want 500 words on the the daily show. But first I want. But first you opened. You spent four years opening for Lisa Lampanelli. I spent one weekend, three days. And did you get hazard

Frank DeCaro 59:02

pay? We deserve hazard pay for opening for Lisa Lampanelli, because if she didn't kill us, the audience might have it was really, it was rough out there. But no, I had, I had a great time, and I adore her, but I do, but it's, but I do think hazard pay, you know, it's our that's a, you know, I used to always joke about, you know, if they would be aghast at something, I would say, I would look at the audience, say, Do you realize who is coming out here? Next I said, do you understand? Have you met lady Dracula? And they would laugh. And I, you know, and you know, because it's like anything I would say was barely as dirty as what she was going. I mean, I went pretty blue, but still it was, did you work blue? As they say, Were you dirty in your act? Or you're pretty clean.

Jeff Dwoskin 59:48

I think I was mostly clean, you know, I was going first. So it's like, you know you gotta, I guess, yeah, you know, I don't know it was, I don't remember what I remember. But, like. I

Frank DeCaro 1:00:00

was doing fisting I was doing fisting jokes. So I

Jeff Dwoskin 1:00:04

don't know if I was doing jokes. You know, comedy is funny. It's like, one person goes, You're so dirty. Another person goes, You're not dirty at all. Right. So I, I the things I remember about Lisa Milan panelli is one we had to give up this our seats. There was definitely, usually a place where the comedians would sit, because she literally sold out every seat of every

Frank DeCaro 1:00:29

show.

Jeff Dwoskin 1:00:31

Yeah. And the other thing that I remember, and I would say about Lisa netanelli, is, well, she went on to do HBO special at the time she was, I think Uber famous, because she had said something like, Was she the one that is one of the roasts, I think the Chevy Chase wrote she had blown up or something like that, and, and so she went on to get HBO specials, probably because we lifted her up. I do regret you, but she gave me her email. She goes, You're funny. You should you could write jokes for me, and I never, I never, I ignored that, and I shouldn't have, and but seeing her live like you have to see Lisa Benelli live, for some reason I always thought like watching her DVD, or like even on her HBO, which she's so great, but it's like there's something missing. There's something about the energy and like, you don't get mad at her, because she's one of those people that can say everything she says. And you know, you know, it's just like this character, right? And it's like you're okay with it, because she's hitting everyone, right? It's like she doesn't leave any, any nationality, color, anything, uh, I mean, she's

Frank DeCaro 1:01:40

not that racist. No, nobody's that racist, but she's a sweetheart, and really loves everybody, but she it's, it's funny, but, yeah, there's an electricity in the I felt like it was a four year master class. And I, I mean, I'm sure there are some situations, if I have to learn dialog, I get nervous. But if I have to just go, if somebody said, Go host this, you know, I mean, I've had situations where, like, Oh my God, you have to go on and to moderate the panel. The guy left, you know, I had it happen at a game show convention, and there was the didn't just, they were like, they can't find the moderator, so I just ran and it did, but it's, there's not an ounce of nerves anymore because of working with Lisa. I mean, she's just like, you're smart, you know what you're doing. It goes back to the Ethel Merman line. I like, where she said, you paid the money for the tickets. You're the ones that should be nervous, you know. You know, the audience should be nervous, not the performer. But, yeah, no, I don't get nervous about hosting kinds of things at all anymore. And that all goes to Lisa the but you mentioned before about the Daily Show. The Daily Show was truly the happiest of my career that I ever, ever was because I was surrounded by the most spectacularly talented comedy minds. You know, there's, there's a cast photo. I've been there a while, and it's Louis black, Mo rock, Ed Helms, Rob Corddry, John Stewart, Stephen Colbert, Stephen Correll and his wife, Nancy walls, who's a brilliant talent in her own right. And that's and all. And me, you know, and it's like, I'm the WHO THE HELL ARE YOU? You know, in the photo, but it's just to have been working with them and have had, you know, I mean, we did one special that not only had Bea Arthur in it, but it was narrated by Colbert. You know, it's like, who has a show where you're the star, and Colbert is the narrator, you know, in your past. I mean, very lucky person to have started in television at the top, there was nowhere to go but down. That's what I tell people. When you start at The Daily Show, there's nowhere to go but down anyway. But yeah, it was, it was pretty great. Six and a half years. It's like 150 or 170 appearances and stuff. And, yeah, it's pretty wild. What do we it's and I've been lucky enough that I've had so many different versions of my career that it's almost like things happen to other people. I mean, I was a fashion editor for years, and so it was like I was, I was young, I had hair, I was thin, I do you know, and, and I was the fashion editor, and I was going to, you know, parties at Donatella apartment in Milan and the Palazzo Visconti and, you know, and whatever. And meaning, you know, I met Yves Saint Laurent. That just sounds like we're in a time capsule. But, you know, it that whole, I. Era of of talents was, was coming on, you know, i Johnny Versace was helpful with my first book and getting a message jailed to John. You know, it's like it was just a whole other life, and and then the years doing the daily show, it's like that was a whole other thing, and the Lisa part of it. And I've been lucky. I'm not bored with my career ever, you know? I mean, it's just always now, it's just a matter of thinking, What the hell do I do next? You know, your reinvention is easier when you're younger, but you do, magically something appears and, and you become the disco guy, you know, and, or whatever is going to be next, you know, guys, not too bad, that's pretty good. No, it's good. No, but I was gonna say you should always do something. I think I've been lucky enough to only and you're the same way. We bring our enthusiasm to what we do in a very natural way. It's not fake enthusiasm for something. It's, I really love disco, and you should love it too. And, you know, you really love the Golden Girls and will embrace and own the family and and I really do love drag I, you know, I say in all the world, I can attest I love, I think I love the drag queens best. That's what I always say. I do. I love drag queens. I think they're some of the funniest performers and and I, you know, I love them. So it's easier to do work when it's just sharing your enthusiasm and justifying your enthusiasm, you know, justifying all those records you bought as a teenager, or all those hours you spent in front of that TV, or why they're, you know, the DVDs are going to fall over one day and kill you because the stacks are so high, you know, that that kind of thing your work, you sort of Do it to justify your passions. You do you agree? Or, okay, yeah. So

Jeff Dwoskin 1:07:03

Jim, let me, let me ask, what was it like? Which I'm sure the answer is amazing, but like working with Norman Lear on your book on the family, the show that changed everything,

Jim Colucci 1:07:18

yes, the show that changed television

Jeff Dwoskin 1:07:23

all into the family, the show that changed television, there you go.

Jim Colucci 1:07:26

It was amazing. And I was asked, I was flattered, because I was asked to work with Norman on the book, and I was in the middle of writing The Love Boat book. But when someone again, says, Hey, do you want to write a book with 90 at that time, 98 year old legend, Norman Lear, you say, Yes, I do. And what Love Boat book. I'll do that later. You know, strike while the iron is hot and

Frank DeCaro 1:07:49

the only more strike while the subjects alive. Yeah, that's

Jim Colucci 1:07:52

alive. Well, you know, that's the irony, too, that I was approached in January of 2020, do you want to do this book with Norman? Of course I do, and I have these fantasies of Norman and I are sitting there passing papers back and forth. Hey, what about this? Whatever, like really working, you know, side by side, physically. And then, of course, COVID hit in March, and we didn't actually get started on the book until September of 2020, at which point I was like, you know, when you have a 98 year old subject, you don't really delay by eight months for no reason, but they did because Norman was so busy. And so we did most of our writing, most of our interviewing, together on Zoom, although I did have a couple of days where I did get that fantasy come true. There was a day COVID, I think, had taken a little bit of a dip by, like November of 2020 I guess 2020 2020, yeah. And they said, you know, there Norman has 50 file boxes, at least of all in the family documents and photos that are stored off site, but we can have them pulled and brought to his house if you want to go over there and go through them. And yes, I do. And so I was like, you need an assistant? He said, Yes. So, I brought Frank, and we had a lovely day with a nice, catered lunch at Norman's house, where we sat and went through more than 50 file boxes of documents that had not, literally, literally not been seen since they were put in that box 50 years ago, because nobody's gone through this stuff. Oh,

Frank DeCaro 1:09:17

it was like met TV guides that that's the spine wasn't broken, and they're 50 years old. It was like I was going I was in pig heaven, even though I wasn't. My book, documents

Jim Colucci 1:09:27

from network and letters from fans and photos that had never been seen. It was amazing. And then afterward, we sat with Norman and kind of talked about what we'd found, and says, far, far apart, far apart, because they were protecting Norman. So we sat on what he had a long porch in this house, and it was an outdoor porch. So we sat at one end of the porch on at a round table, and he sat at the far end of the other, other end of the porch. And we shouted, Hey, Norman, what about this? So we had our we had our day with him from 20 feet away.

Frank DeCaro 1:09:59

That's really. It's, it's incredible. And, you know, hearing

Jim Colucci 1:10:01

those stories from the horse's mouth, literally, I mean, it's, it's, I cannot, I cannot say how thrilling it was for me, because it's not some of the stories I'd heard before, because I've heard him being interviewed before, but to hear things and be able to ask him about it directly. And this is the man who was there, and the man is now 99 while we're writing this book. I mean, wow, I you that's a once in a lifetime opportunity. And as I said, That's why, when you get asked if you want to do that, if you ever have a legend, ask you if you want to do anything with them, and they say, are you busy? Say, nope, I'm not busy. I'm all yours. It's worth it.

Frank DeCaro 1:10:37

And and it's weird, you know how we were saying about how we were trading off doing the disco book and the love book book, you know, Norman is, of course, in the drag book because of his casting of the Beverly LaSalle character, the drag performer who is in faints in Archie's cab, and he gives her mouth to mouth resuscitation, and then finds out it's a man, which is a hilarious thing, but they liked the character so much, they brought her back twice more, and then when they killed her off as a victim of a hate crime, the only negative male they got was, how could you kill off someone we liked so much, as opposed to, why are you putting a transvestite character on as they used to use that word back in the day. So it was, you know, it was the but we You made us love her, and then you killed her. How dare you? So that was, and that was something I found out looking in those boxes, because it said negative male, and the negative wasn't. How could you put a transvestite character on TV? It was, how could you kill a transvestite there? We loved her. So it was kind of interesting to know 50 years ago that you people could be reached, and they're better sides, and they're more tolerant, open sides could be

Jim Colucci 1:11:56

reached, and yet there were things that we were weirder about back then, because some of the negative mail was about, how dare you discuss Edith going through menopause. I watched this with my daughter, and this is a supposed to be a family show, and I was so embarrassed. They were really hung up on periods in menopause back then. Oh, yeah. Very, very disturbed by any mention of

Frank DeCaro 1:12:14

it. One guy wrote a letter to Norman on the box back of a context box that

Jim Colucci 1:12:18

he typed so he actually, actually took a coach box, inverted it, put it in his typewriter, and then banged out a letter on the back of a codex

Frank DeCaro 1:12:27

box, mailed it to normal. Not crazy at all. Yeah, that's not

Jim Colucci 1:12:31

crazy. You never

Jeff Dwoskin 1:12:32

know what's going to trigger someone. My goodness, I know we could go on for 10 more hours, but this has been so much fun. You guys have so many stories. There's so much that you guys have done. I just I love everything, and so thanks for sharing all these stories with me.

Jim Colucci 1:12:56

Thank you for having us. This was

Frank DeCaro 1:12:58

so much fun. And send people, if you would to my Instagram. It's at Frank di Caro show, D, E, C, A, R, O, Frank dicaro show. And there's links to getting my books, and there's, but it's naughty, so it's, don't open it in public. Always Frank

Jim Colucci 1:13:17

would give you a Not Safe For Work link to find. Oh, it's not. It's safe for work, but it depends on just go to Amazon and look for disco movie music movies and mania under the mirror ball, or Golden Girls forever or and that way they don't have to deal with You're not safe for work, no, but

Frank DeCaro 1:13:33

you have so much fun. On my journey with all Instagram, I will put links

Jeff Dwoskin 1:13:37

to everything in the show notes when we release this.

Frank DeCaro 1:13:41

It's not filthy people, it's just naughty, okay? It's just, it's naughty. Okay? That's all not always, but often. So it's and it's my sense of humor. And people are like, how can you do these dirty things and then write a cogent book about disco? It's like, I don't know. Can you be more than one thing? It's like my sense of humor is perverted, and my my writing life is serious. It's, you know, and I, and I'm a good cook in the kitchen, you know? It's like, it's, it's, you could be five things. That's

Jeff Dwoskin 1:14:09

why you're a quadruple threat. It's, yeah, Thanksgiving,

Frank DeCaro 1:14:13

we're all going to be quintuple

Jim Colucci 1:14:15

threats. They're going to be, we're

Frank DeCaro 1:14:17

going to be quintuple Extra Large Oh, I was good. I was on at this Thanksgiving,

Unknown Speaker 1:14:25

nailed it, nailed it.

Frank DeCaro 1:14:26

They say yes, well, thank

Jeff Dwoskin 1:14:30

you both so much. I appreciate you, and that's it. You.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai