#334 Mike Sacks on Satire, Self-Publishing, and the Art of the Novelization

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Jeff Dwoskin 0:28

all right, Sally, thank you so much for that amazing introduction. You get the show going each and every week, and this week was no exception. Welcome everybody to episode 334 of classic conversations. As always, I am your host. Jeff Dwoskin, great to have you back for another amazing episode of Classic conversations. My guest today is none other than humor writer, editor and author, Mike Sacks. Mike has written for Vanity Fair, The New Yorker, GQ, Mad Magazine. He's also published several amazing books, including novelizations of non existent movies. We're gonna go deep into that. So much fun. It's coming up in just a few seconds, and in these few seconds, we went back to Simi Valley last week. Dean Butler was here to talk about his book, Prairie man. We talked Little House on the Prairie 50th anniversary. Do not miss that if you're a fan of the show. Dean Butler was amazing. But you know what else is amazing? Mike Sacks, a true master of comedic writing. Thrilled to have him on the show. You are going to love this conversation. Enjoy. All right, everyone. I'm excited to introduce my next guest author, humor writer, editor, Vanity Fair, contributor to New Yorker GQ Max, a mad, Funny or Die in a million other places. Welcome to the show the hilarious Mike sacks, hey,

Mike Sacks 1:57

thank you. I have to change my bio because half of those places no longer exist,

Jeff Dwoskin 2:02

but they still live in our hearts.

Mike Sacks 2:05

They do, but they don't pay

Jeff Dwoskin 2:09

well. They currently paying Mike include,

Mike Sacks 2:11

there we go. Make it current. My man, I

Jeff Dwoskin 2:15

don't track your finances, so if you want me to redo it,

Mike Sacks 2:20

oh, it's fine. It's just, I've been in the game so long, and so many places are like Mad Magazine no longer there. I just, I just need to freshen it up a bit. I think I

Jeff Dwoskin 2:31

know. But Mad Magazine a special place in my heart, so when I see that it's more just the coolness that you worked for them, it's not, yeah, yeah. Well, I

Mike Sacks 2:40

just had a few articles. I mean, they were a dream come true for me. Now, before mad, I was contributing to cracked the 90s version, which was the hard copy version. Cracked was sort of a cheap knockoff on mad, but that was my first writing gig at college, or right after college, that was actually talking to Dan clows once, and he said that was his first gig, too. He used to do a lot of work for them. So they were really nice about taking people who didn't really have a long resume.

Jeff Dwoskin 3:09

Oh, that's what I was going to ask you. So college, you were a newbie yourself, so they were very welcoming to you folks and helping get them off the ground. Yeah.

Mike Sacks 3:19

I mean, they read my pitches, which is more than I can say. I mean, there weren't many places at that time in when I was in colleges, Playboy, New Yorker National Lampoon, cracked and mad, and that was it. I mean, onion was just starting to come up, but they weren't taking outside submissions. So I remember submitting to some of these places, including cracked and mad with a self addressed stamped envelope. You know, I would send in hard copy and include an envelope in case it was rejected, which it typically was, take it to the post office and mail it off. That's how long ago it

Jeff Dwoskin 3:55

was. How often did you get responses versus just getting ignored or having them sent back,

Mike Sacks 4:03

mean, like handwritten rejections, that sort of thing. It wasn't that, well, I received a handful of handwritten rejections when I was in college, just out of college, and that really actually meant a lot at the time. Typically, it was just a form letter that I'm assuming now an editorial system sent, but occasionally an editor would write back. There's another van neeffer who wrote me, Spy magazine wrote back. Mad Magazine, at first, you know, rejected me, but they wrote back. So that was really important to me, because it showed that at least they were being read, and at least a human was on the other end, and they would know who I was next time I contributed, there's some sort of encouragement.

Jeff Dwoskin 4:43

Did you re bump into any of those people on your way up, more

Mike Sacks 4:47

like on my way down? No, yeah. Actually, I kept in touch with quite a few of that. I mean, I never forgot what they did, and that's why, when young writers will reach out to me, if I even if I can't help them, I'll try to be. Somewhat positive, and show them which way to go, and show them what to do, and show them what not to do, because they just don't teach us in school. The professors really don't know from it necessarily. You know, just because you're a tenured professor who teaches say MFAs, doesn't mean you're out there hustling trying to get published in magazines and newspapers. So there's a lot of things that I did a lot of things that young writers do that I would not recommend, and I sort of try to steer them in the right direction. What's

Jeff Dwoskin 5:26

one thing you recommend not doing? Don't copyright

Mike Sacks 5:29

your work. It's not going to be stolen. And if you put a C within a circle on the page, that means that you really don't know what you're doing. And also it means that you could be a bit paranoid, and editors don't want to deal with that. They want to deal with easy people. And that's one of the things I tell young writer, just be easy to deal with. There's a lot of talent out there, and it really comes down to editors just wanting to, you know, they have a tremendous amount on their plate. They don't want to have to hold your hand or deal with someone who's a little difficult. So just be nice. Don't be an asshole, really. I mean, there's a lot of people out there who are really talented, but they're not easy to work with, and they're not going to get a second chance at doing I don't care how good you are, you're not going to get an email or a call from these editors again.

Jeff Dwoskin 6:12

All right, so don't copyright your work that throws up a red flag. Difficult. Difficult. What's something that you should absolutely do?

Mike Sacks 6:19

I would keep your pitch letters now. Pitch email is very short. I would not oversell. If they're interested, they'll get in touch with you, and I would not necessarily this is not recommended, but if you're pitching a magazine, if you receive one rejection, that doesn't mean the entire magazine rejects you. I recommend going to editorial editors lower on the ladder. You know, those who are have been in the game a while, have their own group of writers, and editor in chief doesn't even look at submissions. So go with those who are younger. I think that's usually the best bet. A good way to do it is if you look at books of writers you like and who's writing, this might be similar to yours. Look in the acknowledgement section, typically they'll think they're editors, magazine editors or agents. That's a good place to go to, sort of suss out who is editing their work, and where you can then go to submit great

Jeff Dwoskin 7:10

advice of what to do and what not to do. Nice tips. Thank you, Mike. Oh, hey, when I was researching you your dad was an endodontist. Yes, my dad was dentist. By I mean, that means we both kind of had our dads and our mouths, I guess, basically, right.

Mike Sacks 7:28

Good thing. It was our procologist. My dad was a root canal specialist in Virginia. Alexander, Virginia. He passed away three years ago, but we were very, very close, and I used to work in his office occasionally over summers. Before, I was too young to work retail, I started working in a record store of 15, but I would work with him in the summers. I was in charge of a few things, developing the X rays. We actually had to develop the X rays back then, and it wasn't digital. And I was also in charge of mixing the gutta per show, which is a type of rubber used in root canals. He was a root canal specialist. It was really a fascinating job. In a lot of ways, I've learned a lot from him. He put everyone at ease. People would come in very, very nervous, and they would leave just in love with him, because he got rid of their pain and was very kind about it. So yeah, that was a great experience. And being DC, he worked on a lot of politicians like Trenton Lott and also Washington Redskins, players, Sonny Jurgensen and astronaut so it was fun. I got to meet all these people.

Jeff Dwoskin 8:31

Oh, that's that's really cool. I my dad was known. Everyone would always be like, your dad is the funniest. But at home, my mom was funny. My dad wasn't. But ever your dad is the funniest dentist. And was like, All right,

Mike Sacks 8:45

that is, yeah, because my dad was very funny, and he had a lot of funny dentist friends. In fact, there used to be a comedy dental comedy contest in Northern Virginia where this group, these group of funny dentists would go up and tell joke. I don't know what it is about dentists and being funny, I think you have to have sort of a positive attitude anyway, because you're dealing with people all day who don't want to be there. And I think a lot of times humor sort of makes it easy for the patient in the chair, which was an early lesson of mine that he would use, but he couldn't use, had to be a very specific type of comedy was very vanilla, very Borscht Belt, you know, you can't go dark with the dental junk,

Jeff Dwoskin 9:26

right, right? Very dad joke level. Type stuff. Very

Mike Sacks 9:29

dad joke level. Well,

Jeff Dwoskin 9:31

it's funny. You mentioned, like all the famous politicians, my dad said once he did an emergency thing on Ray Parker Jr, you know, ghost, wow. And so I use that in a reach out to try and get him on my podcast. Did not get him, but I was like, hey. And you know, I think I one of the things I want to tell you, I want to confirm this story. My dad claims he came to my dad, you know, but, you know, you try and get any angle you can get with stuff. So

Mike Sacks 9:57

I'm surprised he would be so reclusive unless he does. Want to talk about being sued and losing for the Ghostbusters song,

Jeff Dwoskin 10:04

yeah, I know. I just maybe, you know, when I say ham, I you know, you know how it is. You reach out. It's people. They're people. But the he may not know, but yeah, I just, I wanted to talk to him about that. So anyway, I saw that. So I thought that was an interesting, interesting thing we had shared, Mike, how did you like what was the point where you knew you wanted to do comedy? Was it originally you wanted to be a writer, or is that just how you kind of evolved?

Mike Sacks 10:31

Well, originally I wanted to be a pilot and then a brain surgeon, but I was a very, very poor student, and then a pediatric specialist of some kind, but I was not good at science, and I was okay at writing, but I really did love comedy, and my dream was to write for Letterman or Saturday Night Live. That was my dream, but I didn't know how to go about it. I didn't know any writers. I didn't know anyone who knew any writers, so I just started writing for prints. That was all I could do, with the hope that one day I would be called up to the majors, you know, I'd be discovered and called up to Letterman or SNL. That's just not the way it works. But I sort of found my niche because I do really like to write for the page, whether it's for magazines or books or, you know, even audio projects, where I don't have to go through creativity by committee, and I don't have to deal with producers. I can really, for better or worse, just get out whatever I need to get out on my own. So it was really just sort of falling into it. I mean, I received some praise in college, and that was the only praise I received in anything, and I just didn't know what else to do. And it took a while. I mean, after college, I worked retail for a number of years, and just tried to squeeze my way in. Somehow, it was just a very mysterious world, difficult world to get into, and just through luck, really, that just kind of came together. But it was not God given. I can assure you, I could very well easily still be back in Northern Virginia or Maryland, working retail. Hey,

Jeff Dwoskin 12:02

those record shops are really popular again. So, yeah, well,

Mike Sacks 12:06

not as popular as they used to be. I mean, when I worked for this place called Kent mill Records was in the DC area, and they had 33 locations. I mean, it was big, and then they expanded just before Napster took over and they they went out of business. But anyone who grew up in DC in the 80s and 90s would know Kent love music.

Jeff Dwoskin 12:24

We had harmony house here in Michigan. That is always one really cool music destination.

Mike Sacks 12:30

Is that where Jack White and Eminem used to shop. I'll have to Google that and find

Jeff Dwoskin 12:35

out. Maybe I know Jack White's got a thing downtown in Detroit. Now they press records and stuff. But I didn't remember to just mention it, but the off, to look it up, Harmony house was just like the the place you went and just had everything, and you living through the evolution of, oh, look at here's the CD section, right? And there's 10 CDs, because that's right.

Mike Sacks 12:55

I mean, I was there when I first started. It was just when CDs were coming out, so it was mostly vinyl, and it was interesting, sort of an out of the way location. You know, regulars would show up just talk. I mean, you just don't see that anymore. And I was 15, working these nights and weekends, and I just loved it. I mean, it just, it got me out into the world, and I saw these different types of characters. I think it's really, actually good experience for any writer to just have retail or just shit jobs that they have behind them, just for experience to write, especially when it comes to comedy,

Jeff Dwoskin 13:30

nothing B's real world experience, that's for sure. Well, no, and

Mike Sacks 13:34

I think a lot of comedy writers don't have enough of that necessarily. They may know every joke in The Simpsons, but they may not, you know, they don't have military experience like the com comic writers did in the 50s, coming out of World War Two, like Mel Brooks and Larry Gelbart. I think that's really helpful. No,

Jeff Dwoskin 13:52

I agree, the more actual context you can put the things it can only get better after the record store. What Washington Post is that, is that where your journey went?

Mike Sacks 14:00

Well, no, I worked as a champ, and then I got a job at a very DC type organization. They have a million associations. This one was called the Investor Responsibility Research Center. We analyze proxy report for large institutional investors. I'm putting myself to sleep just talking about this, but I was editing one of the newsletters. I mean, it's just very typical DC went, you know, there's a million editing jobs. Every Association on earth has a newsletter. Now would be a website, but I was hired to do that. And from there, I worked at Knight Ridder, which was a wire service, and then tempt at the Washington Post, and snuck in to the employment office there and applied for a job, which you weren't supposed to do. I mean, at that time, I was just attempt typing in death notices and advertisements. Someone would call and I would type in the advertisement through Locke. I just got this job, and it was really it just came down the fact that I knew this ancient word processing program called zy, right, and that was an old editing i. Processing program that I just happened to know. And from there, I got a job helping to edit the syndicated columnist like George Will and Tom shales, Jane Brian Quinn, Ellen Goodman, Charles Krauthammer and all that. So that was about a year and a half. And then from there, I got the job at Vanity Fair and moved up to New York.

Jeff Dwoskin 15:17

When did you start publishing your own books?

Mike Sacks 15:19

That's only been within like past five years or so, I had gone through traditional publishing, but came up against a wall of sorts, because agents and publishers were not really looking for the type of comedy that I wanted to do, which is, you know, understandable as they're not huge sellers these books is very quirky and a little bizarre. I guess it's almost like Adult Swim would be for TV. I learned and found out that you can really put out anything you want now publishing wise. I mean, this is the first time in history, really you can do so at this level. And my wife is a designer, a book designer at Random House, and I'm a writer and editor. So I could edit it and write it and put it out. I didn't have to pitch it to anyone. I didn't have to wait three years for it to come out. So I always wanted to put out this book. The idea was it would be a novelization or a movie tie into a non existent movie. And then about four years ago, I wrote it takes place in the late 70s. It's a trucking and sea beam type movie, like smoking the bandit. So I wrote this novelization to a non existent film, not really thinking about anything just beyond wanting to get it out. A couple weeks after it was out, I received a email from someone, Eric Martin, who was a producer, audio producer and their writer. He said, Can I have a rights to this to try to sell it? I said, Sure, not thinking anything would happen. And two weeks after that, all these people were on board, Sean Hamm, Ray C horn, Andy Richler, you know, just an amazing cast. Phillip Baker Hall from Boogie Nights. And was really the first of those, I think, books that were just starting to come out. And then people wanted to be so, you know, actors wanted to be associated with these audio comedies, which really, so it's just a timing sort of thing. I had no idea beforehand that it would work out like that. You know, that goes to another lesson. Good things tend to happen if you put it out there instead of just pitching it for years and years. And a good thing happened with this only because I just took the time to write it, rather than trying to get it represented by an agent or purchased by a mainstream book publisher. So

Jeff Dwoskin 17:23

you found a great way to sort of circumvent their opinions of your opinions, and to get yours out there so that the public can decide, really, which is the ultimate I think

Mike Sacks 17:33

it's vital to do that. I mean, either it'll be liked or won't be but for someone to not put it out because they don't understand it, I think, is, I don't think that should. I think writers should avoid that, and especially nowadays, where you can do whatever you want, however you want, and have the power to get it out there. I think it's important to get it out there. People tend to be more receptive to something tangible, rather than an idea. So if they can hold a book in their hands, or if they can listen to an audio project, or whatever it is you're doing, they can then see what you're what you were talking about from that point, the tangible aspect, you can then branch out. You can you can go into various areas. Yeah, I know writers who've been pitching the same idea for years and years, and I think that's sort of circling the drain. And I think it's a trap in a way. I don't know that anyone needs to give it. Should be the gatekeeper these days. You know, if you put out something as good, it'll be discovered. But I don't think someone should say that it shouldn't be out there. And I think you have to be, as a writer, somewhat stubborn, and just make it happen.

Jeff Dwoskin 18:35

The book we're talking about that John Hamm did the audiobook for, stinker. Lets loose. I love your all the ideas of your novelizations and your passion for these discovered novelizations. I mean, stinker lets loose is an hilarious concept of a movie that, in your world, or in this world, existed but didn't. And here we have discovered you discover the novelization written by somebody else, James Taylor Johnson, but then you're going to republish it on his behalf, so that the world can rediscover this lost classic,

Mike Sacks 19:11

right? Classic in quotes here. I mean, the fun thing about this was, I could almost write it as a character, like a character actor would play a role. I could write it as a writer struggling in Hollywood in the late 70s, the margin of error for it being bad is built in so you don't have to write it like you would something for New Yorker. It can be bad. It can be poorly written. It can have spelling mistakes and grammatical mistakes, but there was a real freedom that I've never done that before, writing under the guise of a character. It was it was just fun to do. It was very freeing.

Jeff Dwoskin 19:43

How did you kind of come up with this? Were you a big fan of those type of movies, and you just decided to try and adapt your own smoking the bandit crazy chimp movie from that era? Well, I

Mike Sacks 19:56

wanted to do, you know, if I had my way, I would have done it. And. A movie or TV show, but I didn't have that power. So all I had really to create a movie was to I thought the easiest way would be to do it in print form, which would be a novelization, which I used to grow up reading. And by doing that, you can sort of create a backstory plot for the movie, as well as backstory about the movie. And I just thought it, it was a fun world to get into. I had no idea anyone would be interested in putting out an audio but I'm just thankful they were, because then it became a fake audio to a fake movie. You know, the jet the layers go back and back and back. So it just became an even deeper world. Once it was it became an audio project.

Jeff Dwoskin 20:40

Sorry to interrupt. Have to take a quick break. I do want to thank all of you for your support of the sponsors. When you support the sponsors, you're supporting us here at Classic conversations, and that's how we keep the lights on. And now back to my conversation with Mike sacks going deeper into that audiobook, and we're back. How did that kind of make you feel, seeing it come alive like that, with Jon Hamm playing your character, and all these great folks playing the characters that you developed, and then seeing it come alive like that. Yeah,

Mike Sacks 21:09

it was a dream come true. This is what I wanted to do as a kid, and the fact that someone as great as John Hamm would be intro. I mean, he was interested. I had known him a little bit. He posed for an author photo of mine from one of my books. So it's him as the author, not me, and he his father worked in trucking in Missouri in 70s, and I think it just sort of hit home with him. But by the time the second book came out with Gillian Jacobs and Bob Odenkirk and Adam Scott and all these people, I was just crazy. I just couldn't believe it. I still can't really believe it. I could have pitched that idea, or any of these ideas, for years, and it never would have happened, just the fact that I could show them something I think really helped

Jeff Dwoskin 21:53

so passable and pink, that's that's the one you're referring to there, that inspired by, did you have a personal love for the I mean, we all did, but John Hughes movies, yeah, I

Mike Sacks 22:03

did. I mean, I loved 16 Candles and Breakfast Club. It's funny. I just tried to watch 16 Candles with my 14 year old daughter last night, and she was not having it. As soon as she saw the naked shower scene, she was like, and then also the cultural appropriation of long duck Dong. I mean, it is not a movie for today's kids, but for me, you know, growing up in the 80s and 90s, early 90s, I love those movies, but I thought a lot could be done to sort of take the piss out on to satirize them. I mean, some of the movies are brilliant, Breakfast Club 16 Candles, but some of them are not brilliant, and I find annoying Pretty in Pink being one and Ferris Bueller's Day Off, which I find incredibly annoying. I find Ferris to be an absolute bore and the sociopath. I mean, he's almost like a future GOP senator when you look at his attitude to life. So I wanted to make fun of some of the things that I just sort of missed the first time around.

Jeff Dwoskin 22:57

Got it, got it. And then, and then slouchers, oh, it's, uh, that's Gen X parody. Do you have any more coming? Is this like

Mike Sacks 23:06

I do? I have one coming that is, um, I'm working on now. And it's actually a photo book. And I have an amazing cast of, uh, actors and comedians. John Ham's in it again. Paul Rubens is in it. Amy Sedaris is in it, Patton oliswalt, Chris Maloney, Michael Ian Black, Lorraine Newman, so that one is, I don't want to give the idea away, but it's more of a instead of a novelization, it's more of a photo book.

Jeff Dwoskin 23:32

Got it? So that must have been fun. So, so like, one of these, I've seen these with, like, Sound of Music has one where it's more of a scrapbook, a scrapbook concept,

Mike Sacks 23:42

exactly right, with an essay and whatever happened to and bloopers and all that sort of thing, which I used to like to but the premises is based off of movie, a specific type of movie, film in the mid 90s. Oh,

Jeff Dwoskin 23:53

that's hilarious. That's awesome. Is slouchers an audiobook now too? Or is just passable in pink?

Mike Sacks 23:59

Slouchers is audio, but it's not a full cast. It was Eric Martin who did all the other narration for the other books, and he did the narration for that. But that is available in audiobooks,

Jeff Dwoskin 24:10

like a normal audiobook, okay? And by normally, one person reading it,

Mike Sacks 24:14

yes, not normal. Beyond that, one person narrating, right, right,

Jeff Dwoskin 24:19

right. And Randy, another one of your books, the complete and unedited biography and memoir of the amazing life and times of Randy s, another found

Mike Sacks 24:27

book. Yeah, another found book. You

Jeff Dwoskin 24:31

just love creating these kind of the world that you create with kind of discovering these things and like and then do you feel it offers you an even extra layer of freedom in terms of everything you can do or say or Yeah, totally.

Mike Sacks 24:47

I think it frees me up. You know, it's like playing a character or acting on stage as someone else. And each of these found objects are written by different types of people. I mean, this one in particular. There was supposedly a self published memoir that I found at a garage sale, and it features a 30 something from Maryland area where I grew up. And it's just a certain type of person that I used to know, especially working retail premises. He come comes into a lot of money and creates out of the his grandmother's farm, a suburban development where he lives at the top of the hill in a town home, and becomes the president of the association and hires someone an arts he becomes an arts patron, and he hires someone to write about his life, but in very flowery pros, you can tell it's all bullshit. There's a very mediocre guy being written about in a very majestic way,

Jeff Dwoskin 25:38

very cool. He had a let's do this mug. I noticed stinker had a shit kicking mug. I was trying to thank you. You got an Etsy store that you can start.

Mike Sacks 25:50

But I used to love those mugs. I mean, pre internet, you know, you took your comedy where you could get them, and a lot of times they were the coffee mugs you see at your friend's parents house. Exactly,

Jeff Dwoskin 26:01

Randy was cool. Though I like the Randy isms. Ain't no cool way to eat a popsicle. A lot, a lot of good stuff.

Mike Sacks 26:08

Yeah, he's no genius, this guy, but hopefully he's likable.

Jeff Dwoskin 26:13

So and then you did a couple amazing interview books, comedy interview books. These were some of your first books. And here's the kicker, and poking a dead frog Right?

Mike Sacks 26:23

Very I don't think it was the first I think it was the third book was. And here's the kicker, where I interviewed comedy writers. A lot of reviews said I interviewed comedians. That's not true. It was really just comedy writers, and the purpose really was just sort of selfish, or just wanted to pick their brains, to see what worked for them. Those who were successful, and also quite a few of them, were dying off. So this was 2007 or so, 2008 and a lot of the original radio comedy writers, TV writers, were passing away. So I wanted to get out the some who I knew wouldn't be around that long, such as or Brecker, who wrote for the Marx Brothers, or peg Lynch, who was in her mid 90s and wrote for radio comedies, and Larry Gelbart, who wrote for Bob Hope and your Show of Shows. And I just wanted to just sort of bridge that gap between, you know, to another time when comedy writing was totally different. You didn't go to college for it was very much a street hustle. A lot of them had been in the military, I wanted to ask them about their their careers, and that just didn't exist anymore. But they had, you know, all of them had great advice for younger writers across the board. So it was, it was a thrill, really. And some of the younger writers, like Harold Ramis, passed away not long after I interviewed him, so I just feel fortunate. And I got to interview these, these writers whose work meant a lot to me when I was growing up.

Jeff Dwoskin 27:43

A lot of these names mean a lot to a lot of people. Robert Smigel buck, Henry al Jaffee, you mentioned Harold Ramis, just so many. Bob Odenkirk, Paul Feig, and then in the other book, Mel Brooks, Amy Poehler, Pat noswell, was there any particular advice, say, from Mel Brooks. That stood out.

Mike Sacks 28:02

I don't remember specifically about Mount Brook Well, speaking of dentists, I spoke to him one I spoke to him multiple times, but one time I was talking to him. He was in his car coming back from the dentist. I mean, how, how Jewish is that? You know, across the board, it was the same advice, and that's basically, don't get into it for the money. Remain true to your convictions and never stop. Just keep moving forward. And that pretty much it, I mean, doesn't even matter what generation or writer comes from, but that's pretty consistent across the board. You know, write what you find funny, not what you think producers or editors or agents would find funny. And just never stop, never give up, because there'll be highs and there'll be lows. But if you keep moving forward, good things tend to happen. So that was pretty much the overall overarching advice from all the writers.

Jeff Dwoskin 28:53

Any any plans on doing a third round of interviews? It's impressive. It's impressive. You get so many big names that, in itself, is so cool, yeah,

Mike Sacks 29:02

but that this is before it became a thing, before there was a million podcasts and a million books about comedy. I mean, when I did my first book in 2007 there was very, very little written about comedy beyond maybe the AV Club, onion AV Club. There's no podcast. So it was easier for me to get interviews. Now, I don't think I would find it easy. I really don't, especially for this type of interview, which is not a short interview, it's a long form interview. Some of these interviews would take weeks, not months, of repeated interviews, to get you know, it's more like a Playboy interview than than something you would see online or a Paris Review interview. So I don't know if people, especially younger writers now, would have the patience or the gumption for it. A lot of PR people don't even like setting up their clients for it, because unless the client is publicizing something that's current, they don't really see any benefit to it. So I don't know I was thinking of perhaps doing a new book of. Young writers coming up now who came up in a different era than you know, Mel Brooks, Larry Gelbart, where you didn't have to come out of you know your Show of Shows, or the Harper lampoon later on, you can now create comedy from anywhere. You can be anyone, which I think is an amazing thing for comedy. So I was thinking of attacking it from that angle, but there's been nothing definitive. As far as pitching this book, it's just a lot of work. I mean, it's a solid year of pure interview, and it's just, truthfully, a bit exhausting. I

Jeff Dwoskin 30:30

can imagine. It's a lot, I'm sure, just them working in the time. Was there any piece of advice that you got that changed the way you did things or approach things?

Mike Sacks 30:39

Well, one piece of advice that I forgot, who gave it to me was that one medium is no more important than the next, and a lot of people feel they must write for TV or they have to write for the New Yorker. But really, if you can write what you want, how you want, and get it out within any medium, you know, one is no less deserving than the next. And I think that's really good advice for young students, that you can create something funny and something artful within any realm, whether it's a one person show or a short film or an audio project, it doesn't have to be for a major studio. It doesn't have to be for a major publisher. So there's sort of a punk esthetic to it, or anyone can do it. You know, rather than circling the drain for a number of years pitching the same ideas, what's more important is just to keep moving forward and never stop, and not to stagnate. And you know, like, as I was saying a little bit before, good things do tend to happen when you put out work that you are happy with. And it really doesn't matter what medium it is, people will tend to find it.

Jeff Dwoskin 31:43

That's great advice when you approach these novelizations, what's, what's your writing process like with a stinker? Do you you have the various movies you kind of like? How do you lay all that? How would I do kind of create, you know, what's your process of, kind of creating these worlds? Well, that's

Mike Sacks 32:00

really just watching a ton of movies from a certain era, just sort of digesting the language and the culture of that time. I mean, you look at some of these movies now, I haven't seen smoking the bandit in a long time. I mean, like something from out of space. Now it's just so bizarre, such a different world. So I try to just sink into that world by watching that movie and other movies and reading novelizations from that era, and then just sort of spitting it out and just going, there's no outlining. It's just going where you think the story needs to go. You know, sometimes when you outline, if you know where the story is going, sometimes the reader will know. But if you don't know where the story is going as you're writing it, the reader may not know either, I mean, for better or for worse. So more surprises I found, tend to happen if you just do that. And for a project like this, it doesn't have to have a traditional three act structure. You're not trying to appeal to any professor or to any producer. It can be very, very surreal and very freewheeling. So for each of these movies that I did, John Hughes or the the Generation X slope slacker movies. It's just inundating myself with movies from that time and taking notes as to the way people talk dressed and what was going on in the background. And by doing that too, you can sort of not only parody these movies, but you can satirize America at the time, and also America now, how Americans changed or not changed, and each of these time periods are very specific to America, whether it's the late 70s, Jimmy Carter, Southern pop culture dealing with gas increases and shortages, or whether it's John Hughes, the Ronald Reagan years, or whether it's the Clinton slacker years in the 90s. There's a lot that can be sort of done with satirizing America back then and America now. So it's sort of almost like a Trojan horse, in a sense that it's just a process, something to use and a Guffin to sort of get jokes and ideas across.

Jeff Dwoskin 33:59

Do you write every day. Yeah,

Mike Sacks 34:01

I think it's important to do that. And I don't necessarily think you have to write every day, but I think you have to do something that achieves something related to writing, whether it's research or networking or just even taking walks and thinking about something, I see no reason why you have to take a day off from that. I mean, if you're going to avoid writing, maybe you shouldn't be a writer. It's hard for everyone, but I do think that it's so hard. And you see the people who are very successful, like David Sedaris, he writes every single day, you just see how hard these writers work, have worked and still work. And I think it's really something that needs a lot of time, and I think as long as you accomplish something each day, it's a good thing. But what I found is writers will take a day off, and before you know it, it's a few weeks. And I don't think that's good. I think it's like any instrument, you have to sort of practice it every day and keep your tool, tool sharp. But I write every day or research. Researcher network only because, you know, I feel it's necessary, but also because OCD and depression and anxiety. This alleviates that for me, I think I'm lucky in that sense. So if I don't accomplish something every day, I get very depressed and anxious. So it's sort of like medical for me, that and exercising as well. So those two things I try to do every day, otherwise I'm a bit of a mess. So how

Jeff Dwoskin 35:24

do you handle like, writer's block, or do you you just kind of, how do you work through that kind of stuff?

Mike Sacks 35:30

Well, I think writer's block. Larry Gilbert had a great quote that said, Your writing style becomes what you can't write. So there was a lot of things he couldn't write. He could write comedy in his own voice, and that that became his style. I think if you're stopping from writer's block, that may not be the type of writing that is will benefit you. I just wrote a piece, a nonfiction piece, for New Yorker, and it took three weeks, and it was torture. And I don't think that's the type of piece I want to write again. I don't think it came out well, it wasn't fun for me. I do think that if, if it comes out, well, if it comes if it's fun to write, somewhat fun to write, that's really what you should concentrate on. If something is hitting a dead end, there might be a reason for that. Either you're trying to write in a style that doesn't suit you, or it's just not a good fit. So your job as a writer is to then find a good fit and come at it from an angle that might work, or just say, You know what? This isn't for me, and you move on to something else. Great

Jeff Dwoskin 36:25

advice. Oh, tell me, well, oh, you had another book passing on the right, which is about a comedian turn shock jock podcaster. Let's talk about that, and then we can pivot naturally to your podcast. Yeah, that

Mike Sacks 36:38

was based on people I grew up with in DC, the judge Kavanaugh type I went to public school, and we used to have a thing with private school kids where we would look down on them. They would look down on us. When the judge Kavanaugh hearings took place, that party that he allegedly, although I do believe he did raped, or a woman that was a few miles from where I grew up, and I knew people like that, and very, you know, they grew up with money and bit entitled. And that's what I sort of wanted to take down. Was that type of person, Micah Kavanaugh, who, it's very DC character. But this, I also wanted to take down those comedians who became conservative, whether they believe it or not, whether it's just a conscious choice to become more popular more successful, or whether just something in my mind goes wrong with them, like Dennis Miller, or any of these types. I just, you know, I'm fascinated by that someone who starts off relatively normal and then maybe has some career trouble and then blames it on an ethnicity or religion or sexuality. So I wanted to create this very mediocre comedic mind who comes from money and just sort of gets through life and turns to conservative humor because it is a good career move so that that was that character.

Jeff Dwoskin 38:04

And then how does that relate to the character of you doing your own podcast?

Mike Sacks 38:12

Hopefully not at all.

Jeff Dwoskin 38:13

Hopefully not at all. Doing it with Mike Sacks. Great name for a podcast. Fabulous.

Mike Sacks 38:19

Thank you.

Jeff Dwoskin 38:20

Very enjoyable podcast. What led you to the world of audio entertainment?

Mike Sacks 38:25

I think there's a lot I love audio, and I there's a lot that can be done with it that can't be done for print. So if there's an idea I have that is more applicable to audio, it's fun to put together. You know, I grew up listening to Old National and Poon records or gene Shepard records, or Bob and Ray records. And I just think a lot can be done with audio comedy. And it's just another medium to work with him that I don't have to answer to anyone. I can put up whatever I want. But I wanted it to be a combination of bits, comedic bits, and also interviews. I interviewed, you know, Gordon Lightfoot passed away, Canadian singer, and I interviewed him for the part. It's just an opportunity too for me to reach out to these people I love, Bill Hader, Jody Hill, I mean, all these people that I just need an excuse to talk to and to pick their brain about comedy, and it's sort of like the poking, poking the dead frog around. Here's the kicker in that I really am sort of aiming it at those people who are at home, who don't, aren't in the business, and want to get in the business, but don't know how to do it, like I was. If there's any overarching theme, it's that you can do it, that you can go from point A to point B, but there are certain things you have to do and certain things you shouldn't do. And hopefully these interviews help writers, whether you're young or just struggling or even later in life, just always wanting to get in comedy, but not knowing how. So it's really for that type of outsider, I think, and also it's also for the comedy geek. I mean, just to be able to ask these people questions that I have about their shows and books and their process is just really. Problem?

Jeff Dwoskin 40:00

Yeah, it's that's one of the things I love about podcasting, is the people that will talk to me that probably normally wouldn't have and being able to kind of dive into their lives for a short period of time. Well, I

Mike Sacks 40:12

think that's, that's something I tell young writers too, don't, don't reach out to people and ask for if they can help you get your resume across or for advice. The best way to do it is to play their ego and interview them, and by doing that, they'll get to know you, and you'll get to know them, and you'll also learn in the process. And it really doesn't even matter who you're doing it for, whether it's a podcast or your own website. I think that's a very easy in for young writers, and I would recommend that over asking for career help or advice, excellent

Jeff Dwoskin 40:44

advice. There you go. Mike, it was so fun hanging out with you. I It was fun diving into all your books and all that kind of great stuff. You've done so many amazing things. Where can people keep up with you, on the website and the socials.

Mike Sacks 41:00

Michael B Sacks on Twitter, Mikesacks.com and there's also the Wikipedia page. But anyway, I appreciate you saying that. I mean, really, I do feel very lucky. I don't feel like I was God given to the chief anything, and I struggled for a long time and just sort of fell into it. I mean, I could very easily, you know, I did so poorly in school, one of the professors said, Maybe you should go into your dad's business. And I said, Well, he's a dentist. That's not going to happen, but I could have easily seen myself selling dental supplies or continuing to work in retail. So just the fact that people are nice enough like yourself to ask questions and want to interview me means a lot.

Jeff Dwoskin 41:40

Well, it means a lot to me that you'll come on my show. So thank you very much. It's an honor. And and just for the record, you probably would have made a mint selling dental supplies.

Mike Sacks 41:51

I think I would have been good. I really do. I think I would have been a real hustler.

Jeff Dwoskin 41:56

All right, how amazing with Mike sacks. I know he's written so much great stuff. Check out stinker. Let's lose passable and pink slouchers poking a dead frog. So many great books to check out. I'll put links in the show notes, all the mike sacks in the world that you want at fingertips. All right. Well, with the interview over, I know can only mean one thing, another episode has come to an end. One more huge thanks to Mike Sacks. Another huge thanks to all of you for coming back week after week. It means the world to me, and I'll see you next time.

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