#310 The Timeless Tunes of TV – A Deep Dive with Marc Myers

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Jeff Dwoskin 0:28

All right, Barry, thank you so much for that amazing introduction. You get this show go and each and every week, and this week was no exception. Welcome, everybody is episode 310 of classic conversations. As always, I am your host, Jeff Dwoskin. Great to have you back for what's sure to be the most historic episode in the history of classic conversations. With me today is author Marc Myers arts and music contributor to The Wall Street Journal and TV theme and music historian going deep into some beloved TV theme songs, you're gonna love it. And that's coming up in just a few seconds. And in these few seconds, you love Sigmund in the sea monsters. If you love family affair, Johnny Whittaker was here last week. That's right, Jodi from family affair. Great conversation. Do not miss that. All right now hopefully you're in the mood for classic TV because we're talking about B which Leave It to Beaver Gilligan's Island room 222. That girl Mary Tyler Moore. We're diving into the TV theme songs of these classics, the evolution of them the history of them so much goodness from Marc Myers. And that's coming up. All right now, I'm excited to introduce my next guest arts and music contributor at the Wall Street Journal and author of Anatomy of 55 more songs, oral history of top hits, that changed rock, r&b and soul. He's a TV theme historian. He loves jazz, please welcome to the show. Marc Myers.

Marc Myers 1:59

Jeff. It's so great to hear your voice.

Jeff Dwoskin 2:01

Marc, How are you?

Marc Myers 2:03

Good. It's great being with you. I mean, what a podcast you have.

Jeff Dwoskin 2:07

Thank you, Marc. I love the spelling of your name. That's how my dad spelled it you don't see many Marc's with a C conceived

Marc Myers 2:14

in Paris. I was conceived in Paris. That was the last thing my mother did when they got back home when I was born, stuck a C on the end of the first name, she was homesick for Paris.

Jeff Dwoskin 2:24

Marc, how did you become a walking encyclopedia of music?

Marc Myers 2:28

It just happens that way. I love music as you do. I love pop culture. And I just love the people who create this stuff. They're artists and I love artists, as everybody knows, at what

Jeff Dwoskin 2:38

point if people start referring you to as an encyclopedia. I mean, at some point you're like, Yeah, I would tell you Yeah, I was. You're like, that's how people talk to me about you that I walking encyclopedia knows everything about every movie, every I'm sorry, knows everything, every song from the 50s 60s 70s on and every TV theme song ever.

Marc Myers 3:00

I just love it. Jeff, I just love it. You know, when you're passionate, you know what you're, you know what you're all about. And for me, music is our life. Music is our history. And music is what unites everybody. So for me, I just love the stuff. I

Jeff Dwoskin 3:13

want to dive into some TV theme songs with you. But I do want to just I do want to kind of attention. I loved diving into anatomy of 55 more songs. Thank you. I really love that type of kind of historic deep dive like here's the song talk to this person. We talked to this person. Here's some backer, here's what people thought, here's what's really happened all the time. And but just enough. Yeah,

Marc Myers 3:38

you know, what's unusual about the book is if I've done my job correctly, I disappear, right? In other words, no matter what song I'm writing about, I've got the person who wrote it, the person who recorded it, and they're talking to the reader. It's an oral history, in effect that person I've used that person's words to convey the information to the reader. So the reader, many people tell me it's almost like I've had conversations with all these people myself. That's the goal to put the reader in front of these people and let them hear you know what, Donovan or Mick Jagger or Joni Mitchell sound like let them hear directly from those artists. That's the novelty that's that's the real grabber.

Jeff Dwoskin 4:15

You know, you're right now that you say that is exactly how it was. I'm like talking to Bernie top and myself learning about Rocket Man.

Marc Myers 4:23

I do that I did all the heavy lifting and you get all you get all the benefit. It's like I hunted for the food and you're at the restaurant eating. That's how I want it. That's how you know that sensation. I want you to feel what he sounded like. I want you to feel you know, the artists talking about what they did. This

Jeff Dwoskin 4:40

is your second book specifically on I mean, you've written five books, but this is the second oral music history book. You've covered like over 100 songs in the two books. How did you get everyone to talk to you?

Marc Myers 4:52

The column at the Wall Street Journal had a great reputation. People knew the column and they wanted to actually be part of it and to be be able to talk to me and know that they were going to be treated fairly and that the interview wasn't about trash or rehab or ex girlfriends. It was merely about the art. I mean, I remember Steven Tyler. He says, Okay, what's this going to be about? And I told him, I said, it's just about the art. Steven, I'm not interested in anything else. He goes, God bless you, Marc Myers. I mean, these people are artists, and they're never treated that way. They're always treated gossip and all kinds of dirt, trash and drugs and Rec and hotel rooms. This was just about what they created. And it was a relief for them to finally be able to talk about that.

Jeff Dwoskin 5:36

I loved every second of it.

Marc Myers 5:37

Thank you.

Jeff Dwoskin 5:38

Where does the other TV theme song history come in? Comes

Marc Myers 5:41

from sitting in front of the television set as a kid watching everything. As you know, watching as much TV as I did. It's not that I was adult headed and never studied or open the book, I just found TV fascinating that there was this world inside this box. And I could change from channel to channel. And these television shows were amazing at creating a mood at creating a feeling, creating a sensibility for young kids, you know, to the point of what we're going to talk about today. I love the theme songs. The theme songs were jazzy. They were snazzy, they were upbeat, they were moody, depending upon the show, they really did a great job in 44 seconds of making you feel something. And that, to me is is a real craft.

Jeff Dwoskin 6:27

And for some reason, at some point, they kind of walked away from no industry sort of walked away from, you know, even trying to make iconic TV theme songs and openings.

Marc Myers 6:37

It was an era in time. It was an era in time when people had moods. People weren't glued to their phones, people you know, were excited about what they were watching. There wasn't that much diversity in media, then there was no Internet, all you could do is turn on the TV or the radio, and the TV was the hardest thing you could turn on, because your parents were screaming at you to turn it off. So if you could get some time to watch these things, and you could feel and fall into it, the theme songs really swept you away. Yeah, I

Jeff Dwoskin 7:06

mean, it's amazing. Just throughout my entire life, just singing when we were talking pre interview, if you will, I guess is I'm like yeah, but we got to talk about Gilligan's Island, which we'll get to but

Marc Myers 7:19

we're gonna get there put your TV dinner in now. But the turkey roast turkey TV dinner and with a cart with the apple cobbler. And that'll get is

Jeff Dwoskin 7:28

exactly what I thought of the apple cobbler which is too hot on the outside and cold and the entire the Exactly.

Marc Myers 7:34

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yes, it's hungry man

Unknown Speaker 7:38

meals.

Marc Myers 7:39

It was like Watson's TV dinner, get it ready on the little standing folding table that you put on your lap and you know, you're good to go for the TV themes.

Jeff Dwoskin 7:46

Where should we start?

Marc Myers 7:48

Let's start with B Witched. And in fact, before I even say a word once you play the first one I gave you, let's just do that B which TV themes which will clue people in that can give you some some facts that most people don't really know about this particular theme song

Jeff Dwoskin 8:02

All right.

Marc Myers 8:19

So the pilot, the pilot that was created for the bee wish which ran from 1964 to 1972. The pilot used Frank Sinatra is witchcraft. They were going to use Frank Sinatra's witchcraft for this show. But the producers suddenly looked at the cost for rights to use it and said forget about it. So Jack Keller composer came up with a theme with lyrics by Howard Greenfield. Now Greenfield Keller also composed breaking up his hard to do calendar girl where the boys are. He's an old hand when it came to songs. But once they came up with a new theme and greenfields lyrics were there, they didn't want to pay Jerry Vale 2500 bucks to do the vocal. Jerry Vale was going to do the vocal to their song, you know, the B which song and besides they said, We don't want to pay that kind of money. And you know what the lyrics are distracting let's let's just leave them out. Let's just do it as an instrumental. So a guy named Warren Barker orchestrated the instrumental and he was inspired by an album that he recorded in 1959. Get this wait for it. It was called a musical touch of far away places. That album had all these odd instruments on there that actor William holding that collected what struck his fancy what made him think of that that album is that he remembered that there were bells and tinkling sounds, which were all perfect for Samantha's nose wiggle in Bewitched, right. The cartoon that was the Hanna Barbera cartoon that was showing while this was going on. Then after the song became the theme it became it was picked up Keller and greenfields lyrics came back and the song was picked up by Peggy Lee and Steve Lawrence and 19 In 65, there's actually a vocal version, the original vocal version became a hit for Steve Lawrence. Let's do number two, which is Steve Lawrence singing the same song as the theme to be which the TV show except with a Doncaster arrangement. He's now got lyrics to sing

Speaker 1 10:30

the witch, the Witch, you've got me in your spell. They awake witch, the witch. You know your craft so well, before I knew what you do, and I looked in your eyes,

Marc Myers 10:50

and that's not on the show that never appeared on the show. Those lyrics were set aside just for the instrumental and those really quirky little noises from strange instruments to illustrate the witchiness of Elizabeth Montgomery flying around in the cartoon illustration that opened up that show, Peggy Lee had a hit with it. There were a whole bunch of people who had a hit with a lyrics version. The song writers got a double they got paid for the TV show every time it was on and then they sold it to singers who then you know, recorded it and they made money that way as well. Great thing and one of the great themes, don't you think?

Jeff Dwoskin 11:24

I love that theme. Frank Sinatra vibe. Yeah, it's Steve Lawrence vocals.

Marc Myers 11:31

I thought Doncaster you know, it had that almost Nelson Riddle if Doncaster kind of created that you know sort of that Sinatra feel but it was caster it has a lot of energy

Jeff Dwoskin 11:42

on it. Who is your favorite Darren? Probably your it's amazing how many other characters switched like Maryland from the monsters there's? I think that's the only one anyone ever thinks about or would say or make it to

Marc Myers 11:54

Lois Lane is also in The Adventures of Superman. That was a Lois Lane in the beginning for a couple of episodes and then I think Nolan the okay man, but yeah, you're right. There are a bunch of switches I think in the case of be wished. I think the first Darren got sick was too ill to do the series and they brought the second one in to handle it that way. It wasn't like he was bad or fans didn't like him. It was that he wasn't well,

Jeff Dwoskin 12:18

right. All right. I'm gonna leave it to Beaver.

Marc Myers 12:20

Don't you love this? I mean, I've always loved this theme. I've always loved this show. When you watch the show. Now it's, you know, to hear the beaver it's like chi Wali, you know, how come adults have to lie so much? Why do they Why are they always lying to kids? I mean, he was always posing these really interesting philosophical questions to which you would say, Yeah, Why do parents lie so much to kids said the beaver was this early philosophical figure. And the family was of course, classic nucular family, but the beaver and wily the interactions between those two was just great, really great. The theme was actually an old children's song called the toy parade. Three or four songs are out three. I think it's three songwriters on a David Kahn, Melvin Lennon and Mort Green wrote that original children's song about toy parade. I think it was a holiday song originally, but they used it as the basis for the theme to Leave It to Beaver. And the theme was actually The show ran from 57 to 63. And the thema adaptation was fairly wooden right over the first five seasons it was kind of like it had this wobbling feel almost like the music you'd hear if you're watching penguins walk around let's first before I keep going let's first listen to the toy parade the song that the Leave It to Beaver theme was based on this is the original children's song here they

Unknown Speaker 13:50

they come up with a run

Marc Myers 13:56

will be sort of deliciously insipid, right? I mean, it's like you can't bear too much of it. But at the same time, you can hear the beaver theme sort of bleeding through let's listen to the theme itself, which ran for five seasons and this was that theme that sort of had this waddling feel where you feel like you're watching penguins walk around strange tempo stay strange tempo they use for it but let's give it a listen.

Sort of wooden until a total last season. And in the final season, they brought in a guy named Pete Reuleaux, who was a big jazz arranger, arranged for Stan Kenton arranged for June Christie arranged his own albums big big big arranger APA jazzy, and he gave it this really jazzy snap. This is only used in the final season of leave it to be Eva This is Pete regalos theme with a jazzy much jazzy or feel much jazzy. There we go

it's that last bit yeah, but you know they can finish great stuff really, really great.

Jeff Dwoskin 15:51

You know it's long sticks in my head with the beaver with Leave It to Beaver is the I hope I'm not making this up in my head. But for some reason, take the long way home. I Supertramp I believe was just played in the reunion movie. I think when he's going home for like the funeral of his father and stuff like that way back when, and like, every time I hear that song, I picture him on the bus. And I think I didn't make it up.

Marc Myers 16:14

I can't watch the reunion movie to me. The original is so classic. It's so precious. It's like a dayglo version of the Mona Lisa. The Mona Lisa was just fine. As far as I'm concerned. He

Jeff Dwoskin 16:27

did a whole new series. Yeah, yeah, it was like a big deal to do the reunion movies but they don't fall on series. You can

Marc Myers 16:34

run that show today. This country went downhill when Leave It to Beaver went off the air because kids lost a primmer. In that show. It sort of taught them the ethical way to behave. why things were weird, you know, bullies. I mean, it really covered the whole spectrum. But in a very funny way. I don't really mean the country went downhill. I just mean, you know, our values or something. You could run that show today. And if you expose kids to that show today, you know, we might be a better place as a result of it. That's how good that show is. You can see him on YouTube. You can watch them for yourself.

Jeff Dwoskin 17:08

I loved leaving you. Yeah.

Marc Myers 17:11

I thought you're coming to Gilligan's Island cuz I know of that one.

Jeff Dwoskin 17:14

I love Gilligan's Island, too. I just I was just I was just kind of at the beach and Wally and Eddie Eddie to me was the best character. You look lovely, Mrs. Cleaver. You look lovely. Everybody

Marc Myers 17:26

knew somebody like that. And the parents His mother never understood, like the father kind of caught on but the mother was always taken with him. I don't see what's why I don't see why you see that in Eddie. He's such a nice young man. You know, she was really she was really conned by the grift.

Jeff Dwoskin 17:46

Man. All right, so Gilligan's Island,

Marc Myers 17:50

Gilligan's Island 1964. Through 1967. Hands

Jeff Dwoskin 17:54

down one of the best theme songs ever.

Marc Myers 17:56

It's a good one. I mean, you know, it's not, it's not among my favorite because the show was never for me. It always felt a little weird. To me, the whole thing. You know, the whole thing was strange. It was sort of like it seemed to be taking place in some kind of an amusement park set of an island or something. It never felt authentic. And I never quite got the point. But as I can see Jeff tilting his head slightly to the right, you know, I'll give it to you that it had great writing. There's no doubt about that. I

Jeff Dwoskin 18:25

just thought it was super fun. It's funny when Yeah, I was like, Why did they have Why did they have luggage? If it was only a three hour tour? That's the visual was wrong. But in the genre of theme songs that explain the entire premise of the show. It's right out there. It's right.

Marc Myers 18:43

Well, you know, the only thing that compares is Beverly Hillbillies, right, which is done the same way sort of a ballad, a recitation of how things came to be, and I guess, for that matter, Green Acres, right, right. So handled the same way. But the ballot of Gilligan's Isle, which is what the theme was actually called, that's music by George while and lyrics by Sherwood Schwartz. Now, the first pilot when they created the pilot, the theme was a Calypso by the John Williams much younger John Williams Star Wars, John Williams, he came up with this with a song based on a Calypso. Actually, I found it because this is the pilot theme song pilot is for listeners who might not know what a pilot is. It's like a demo. And for those who don't know what a demo is, it's a first episode that they put together to give the bosses a sense of what this thing is going to be about. And the bosses will look at it and say, you know, I don't like this and why don't we cast somebody else for that. And maybe the theme song should be a little bit different. That's where everybody weighs in who matters. So the pilot was the first one produced for the bosses, and the theme song was by John Williams and it was a Calypso.

Speaker 2 19:56

In tropical seas, a tropic port became Shouldn't fund is the favorite sport. This is the place where the tourist pluck renting the boats at DBZ talk to secretaries from USA feed on a me know this lovely day in high school is

Marc Myers 20:15

about as bad as it gets. But you know it's a scratch, right? They're just putting something out there and you can just hear he could just sort of see the really heavyset guy with suspenders on the cigar in his mouth saying, I think this is great, but you got to lose that theme song got to lose that theme song. Yeah, it just wasn't happening or it was too kitschy. I think they wanted to something a little more pure. Now, the theme that you know and love Jeff actually wasn't used in season one. Season One was a folk group, a folk group did the original theme song called the Wellington's and I found that one as well.

Speaker 3 20:54

jumps right back, can you hear the fateful trip that started from this topic for this tiny ship? They'll make was a mighty sailing man, Skipper brave and shoot five passengers set sail that day for three hours. Free three, our two.

Marc Myers 21:16

So in 1964, what's popular at that point in time? Well, folk music. And you know, just before that goes on, I probably when this whole thing was being put together, the Beatles hadn't even arrived yet in February of 64. So Folk was what they figured the kids would like to hear, and that would get them to come back. And of course, after the first season, folk is out, and rock is in. Let's listen to the theme song we know and love, which is really more of a sea shanty by a group that was called the eligibles. The eligibles sounds to me like it's a jingle group that was brought forward. They just scrapped the whole folk thing and just brought in the jingle people to do it. So season number two and beyond is the theme that we know the sea shanty by the eligibles.

Speaker 4 22:07

Started from this topic, oh, boy, this tiny ship wasn't mine. You say that man is hipbelt Raven showed us in just that stay on that day for three hour two or three hours.

Marc Myers 22:25

Now what they did there as they jumped it up, there's a bit of a jazzy feel. And if you could remember what you just heard, there's a piccolo shooting through there, that high pitched flute sound. So they kind of made it novelty. And what they did is they instead of the folk group, they amped up what I call the addiction. That's the sugar in the cereal, so to speak, the jumpier livelier theme song would be more likely to pull kids back to the show. That's what these intros were about. The intro is did two things, they set the mood of what you're about to watch. So you've got this whimsical theme there on Gilligan's Island, and it's jumpy, but it also is to is to get the kids addicted to coming back to watch the show. No different than adding sugar into the cereal. And that was the sugar there. Which of the three did you like best chef?

Jeff Dwoskin 23:11

Definitely partial towards the third one. I will have to listen to the first one again. Yeah,

Marc Myers 23:17

you made the million dollar. That's the million dollar decision. The third one, that's the one that's the one that the suits decided on.

Jeff Dwoskin 23:23

It is a much catchier version,

Marc Myers 23:26

and it's jumpier it's jumpy, or you know, it bounces. The second one was sort of this folk harmony, you know, very Washington Square Park and three guitars singing but the third one really has a sauce going on in it. It's it's Skippy or it's jumpy, or it almost sounds like you're jumping on a trampoline when you're listening to it.

Jeff Dwoskin 23:44

Oh, the important question ginger or Marianne,

Marc Myers 23:47

or, you know, it's the whole thing for me. i It's hard for me to even get excited about that show. I liked it. I liked the theme because I liked I liked the song through narrative like on Green Acres. And like on Beverly Hillbillies, you know that the narration where they're telling you they're setting you up or giving you a story. They're telling you it's a preamble, they're giving you a sense of what the show is about. So I like that. But the show itself and the characters and everything just never got me. But what did get me as of the next two are going to talk about all right, which is you want to set it up or are you familiar with these themes?

Jeff Dwoskin 24:23

I'm not exactly room to tattoo,

Marc Myers 24:25

I can tell you never watched it because it was actually room 222 is what the show is called. What we're going to do here is I'm going to show you the similarity between two show theme songs that were about 10 years apart, which is kind of interesting. I didn't realize it until I was about to interview Ed Begley Jr, about two months ago and did research and suddenly realized that the two theme songs were very close. We're very, very close. The first one we're going to listen to is room 222. That's a series that ran from 1969 to 1974. It was written by I'm Jerry Goldsmith, the creator of room 222 As James Brooks, James L. Brooks, and it took place at a they didn't even bother with a fictional High School. They chose Walt Whitman High School in LA, at least for the exterior for the intro, obviously, the interior shots are all being done on a set. But the setting for the show was a real high school that's still there today. Well, Whitman High School in LA. The fascinating thing about this show is the diversity. You had a black teacher and a black male teacher and a black female teacher, you had a young teacher you had there was a quite a mix there. You had guest stars, like Terry gar, Richard Dreyfus. Each week, they had this amazing guest, Nancy Wilson, I remember was on as a guest or the singer. So the show introduced this concept of stars on the rise being guest stars for whatever reason, maybe they're the mean father of a student, or whatever it is, you know, they played some sort of a role. So room 222. Let's do the theme first because then I want to show you which which theme once the theme is in the listeners head, then I can tell you which theme sounds a lot like it. The early theme opened with an acoustic guitar. This is what's interesting about the next to the first theme that they use opened with an acoustic guitar and a recorder recorder like the flute lift recorders that kids play in school to sort of create the school field that you're going to school by 1972. Again, this show runs from 1969 to 74. By 1972. They're playing electronic keyboards, it's a harpsichord and electric keyboard, let's listen to the room to 22 theme.

It's just a beautiful theme. I mean, for me, no other themes sounds a 70s except Mary Tyler Moore, obviously, but the room 222 just had that field. Now what theme song sounds a lot like that st elsewhere, which ran from 1982 to 1988 instead of a campus, a high school campus. It's a hospital, of course. And that was done by Dave gruesome. And by the early 1980s, you've got synthesizers. The interesting thing about both of these themes, and we'll play the same elsewhere one in a second. Both had this studious feel signaling a serious but playful setting right route 222 is high school it's it's buckling down but at the same time, it's you can hear the social aspect of it. You can hear the playfulness of it, the same thing was seen elsewhere. Let's listen this is the st Ellsworth.

So that's all synthesizers you got to move in. There are many movies and you know, probably a profit five as all keyboards running in there. If you compare the two room to 22 and say and elsewhere has the almost identical feel in terms of the build. And then this the sort of seriousness of it, but the playfulness of it, don't you think? Yeah,

Jeff Dwoskin 28:53

I can see where one may have been inspired by the other little update? Yeah,

Marc Myers 28:58

so it's not an exact. I'm not saying that it was a lift or copyright at all. It's simply there are similar shows and that there was a campus, a serious campus hospital versus a high school and that there is a similar build a similar approach, except one has acoustic acoustic sound with a recorder and a acoustic guitar. And the other has all synthesizers interesting

Jeff Dwoskin 29:24

with very lovely, so many great ones. I've been thinking of other ones I've been thinking as it has been bobbing my head by about that girl, what

Marc Myers 29:33

a great series that was 1966 through 71. It sort of predates Mary Tyler Moore. It's an unmarried woman. This is Marlo Thomas was the star unmarried woman trying to make it in New York and there didn't seem to be a career involved the way it was with Barry, but it's a series he's working a series of temporary jobs and she's dating her boyfriend and she's in love with the city and in love with working. It's an early take on that again, it's the midnight 1860s When it's when season one starts the first four seasons, the show use an instrumental theme composed by Earl Hagen who did the Dick Van Dyke Show theme, the I Spy theme and the Modsquad theme, and he also whistled. The Andy Griffith Show theme this is Earl Hagen, a real seasoned pro. In the fifth and final season, there was finally a vocal version with lyrics by Sam Dan off, but the theme is so beautiful. I mean, it really is. Let's let's listen to number 11. This is the instrumental theme that lasted for the first four seasons of Batgirl which ran from 66 to 71.

So that's jazzy. But it also was a show that was for girls, which was which was interesting it was to show girls that here's this woman who is excited by the city is excited by work is excited by the buildings. And of course, the buildings that they show are all the new glass buildings that went up that that weren't made of stone that went straight up. And the architecture is all Sixth Avenue, where all that is. It's just as very breezy, funny, upbeat show, but it was aimed at girls. The final season fifth and final season, it was that vocal version with Sam Dan off, let's listen to that

Unknown Speaker 31:51

rainbows spraying? Is that good?

Marc Myers 32:07

Call a great segue to Mary Tyler Moore. But Wasn't that a great theme song?

Jeff Dwoskin 32:14

It is I feel new girl must have used that as a as an inspiration for Yeah,

Marc Myers 32:18

that's true. That's true. But it's bright and it's alive. And it's exciting. And it's optimistic. Marlo Thomas was just very, very special in there.

Jeff Dwoskin 32:27

Sorry to interrupt, have to take a quick break. Want to thank everyone for their support of the sponsors. When you support the sponsors. You're supporting us here at Classic conversations. And that's how we keep the lights on. And now back to my conversation with Marc Myers. We're diving deep into the TV theme song of Mary Tyler Moore. Enjoy The

Marc Myers 32:47

Mary Tyler Moore Show 1978 to 1977. The theme love is all around written and performed by Sonny Curtis who's Sonny Curtis. He was a member of the crickets, Buddy Holly and the Crickets. Join the group in 1958. It was written for the show a friend of Sonny's worked for Williams price. The agency that represented Mary Tyler Moore, and his friend told him in 1970 Hey, this new show needs a theme song you want to take a crack at it. And Sonny says yeah, I'll take it. I'll try it out. And he comes up with something and he says, you know, gets goes down and shows up where he's supposed to play it for people and he goes, who am I singing it to? And they tell him James Brooks because James Brooks, you know, also created Mary Tyler Moore, and he sang it for James Brooks, who then called somebody else into the room he sang it for the two of them. James Brooks called more people into the room Long story short, he sang the song 10 times as James Brooks suddenly filled this large room with people from the show and everybody loved the theme right off the bat. It's arranged by Patrick Williams you know Sonny singing it and it's his song but the build and the orchestration around it is Patrick Williams the first season this is kind of interesting. They have to change the lyrics after the first season of the of the intro it ends with you might just make it after all if you remember the theme she's driving into into Minneapolis, Minneapolis, St. Paul, she's driving into hopefully make it there and you know her first day on the job at the TV station. And it's it ends you might just make it after all Well, the one of the bosses scribbles on the note and then the next year and he says we got to change the end someday, you know, somebody says why guy says she's made it. She's there. She's working. He got to give me a new line. So the line they came up with was you're gonna make it after all your god um, they just changed the word a little wording a little bit. So you're there you're doing it you're trying to get ahead and that's that that's the bit Season One had a soft intro soft intro season two through six had a hard guitar intro and see seams and seven added a horn on top of the guitar. But let's listen to the intros. Let's start with Season One. This is a very soft intro. Most people probably don't even remember if unless they watch season one and remember this but listen to the intro to season one

Unknown Speaker 35:17

you

Marc Myers 35:23

season two through six had this big guitar sound really big guitar sound because, you know by season 219 7172, hard rock album rock concert rock is upon us. And they, they needed to sort of shift the feeling of it. So there's seasons two through six.

Jeff Dwoskin 35:40

And she's made it so we got to step it up. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Unknown Speaker 35:52

Who can turn

Marc Myers 36:00

and the season season seven intro, they sort of dampen the guitar and they put a horn on top of it, which just cuts the hard edge of it. I don't know why it may well be that by 1977. Things are shifting and they just wanted a softer field. Keep in mind that the changes aren't done, because somebody has a new idea that done because they held about $800,000 worth of focus groups. And people liked this or they didn't like that. Or someone is saying you know, it sounds a little stale. Can we update it, and then when they decide to update it, they've got to take into consideration the zeitgeist. What's happening then 1977 or 76 is very different than 1970 they got to add something a little different to make it sound like 1976 this is season seven intro to The Mary Tyler Moore theme lovers all around with a horn on top of the guitar that opens.

You also have timpani drums in there, bump, bump, bump, bump, bump, bump, bump, bump, boom, which is interesting too, just just to sort of beef it up a bit. Those themes were all created for that feeling. Again, this was aimed at women as well. The early theme had a softer feel they figured that would be the way in because of this trepidation Mary doesn't know what she's going to be facing season two through six bigger sounds she's making it she's on top of the game the shows a hit and that Stephens about last season. It was probably they knew they were on their way out and just wanted to sort of quiet it down a little bit. The like which one they liked best for

Jeff Dwoskin 37:41

The Mary Tyler Moore one. They all seem okay to me. I don't think I just there wasn't like because what I started thinking about as you were kind of pointing a lot of these things out is I don't remember like really shows changing. Like their theme songs. Seinfeld was always Seinfeld I don't think chairs ever changed the chairs theme song right?

Marc Myers 38:02

I'm not sure about that. Or Seinfeld. I believe there were changes to the theme song. Once the show's made it, they start to do certain things. You wouldn't notice it but but it's all subconscious. There's reasons that bass that's in there that you know that funky bass in Seinfeld may have been turned up. And it wasn't that way in the beginning. I'd have to listen to all I'd have to research and find all the themes that were used and do a deep dive to really figure it out. Hey, Patti, like that angling for for coming back on your on your podcast to talk about this. And

Jeff Dwoskin 38:33

you're always welcome. This is fascinating stuff. It's just interesting to me like oh, she made it we gotta change it. I was like, Well, I mean they're already on the island. We're not gonna we don't need to change the lyrics Gilligan's Island. They you know, they're on the I mean, it's, we got it. And

Marc Myers 38:45

yet some lyrics were changed on Gilligan's Island, certain things were changed slight things line or two here and there and just the feel of it. At first, they were selling an exotic show in the Caribbean by after the first season when it caught on. They were selling you know something to kids who might be a little bit older. So they used folk Yeah, because it was more adult it was a more as a more mature show. So they use folk to get the maybe the preteens who are listening to Dylan and listening to Joan Baez. And then finally there, they really punch it out and it's just jiggly. They just pour the sugar right in the cereal. And that's what that's what you're listening to there. That's what's fascinating about going doing the deep dive on these themes, hearing how they change these things subtly to get people hooked on them, which is really what's fascinating.

Jeff Dwoskin 39:33

To me. It was like okay, I had in listening to the Gilligan's Island playbacks, I remembered hearing the clip so one on some documentary, okay. I'd forgotten about it, but I remember them doing something and I didn't know it actually ever aired. I think it was just like this was like a first run at this song. I never guessed in a million years, though other two versions existed because to me, there's only one version you know, I mean, so sci fi. Even if cheers has changed in my head, there's only one version.

Marc Myers 40:04

Oh, yeah, that's the that's the genius of these guys. I mean, they need to make changes that are psychologically messing with you. You see what I'm saying by changing like, for instance, Captain Crunch probably looked one way when it came out. But then they realized like to get kids to reach from the supermarket and yank at the box and pester their parents, they got to add yellow. I mean, they this is all psychological stuff that they figured out just like the supermarket they make very conscious decisions about packaging in the supermarket. That's what they did with these intros, very conscious decisions to make subtle changes to get more kids hooked on these shows hooked sounds like a bad word. So I don't want to say hooked but more interested and more aggressive and how they insisted to their parents that they be able to be allowed to watch it right?

Jeff Dwoskin 40:52

How do we keep the kids off drugs and alcohol, get them hooked on Gilligans TV themes,

Marc Myers 40:58

add sugar, add cereal with listen if you think they're messing with your on those on those themes, you should have seen the advertising that went on, on a lot of these shows back then between games and cereals and gum and everything you can imagine. I have

Jeff Dwoskin 41:13

to spend the rest of the night just reevaluating and re examining my entire life to see where I've been manipulated potential so I

Marc Myers 41:23

feel really sorry that I know it's gonna it's gonna cost you a lot of therapy money.

Jeff Dwoskin 41:27

What if like, I looked back and I realized, oh my god, maybe Gilligan's Island wasn't a great show. Marc has opened my eyes. I was manipulated. I just like catchy song.

Marc Myers 41:38

That was their job. That's that's the job that was the Beatles job. The Beatles job was to get you in the first three verse. The reason why most Beatles songs start with the title of the song so that you would remember it when you went to the record store. Help. Can't Buy Me Love. You know, she loves you. The reason why that title of that song is in the first few measures is so that you'd remember that? Yeah, it's a product singles and theme songs and food. It's all products they have to be sold. You must be hooked. You destroyed me. Want to do one last one. Do one last one. All right. This show the show only aired for a year. Most people don't even know it. It was called a he and she and it starred Richard Benjamin and Paul apprentice who happens to be married. She was beautiful. He was very handsome guy. The theme was composed by Jerry Fielding. And it's a wonderful, wonderful instrumental theme. Actually I think it has lyrics now that I think about it but or maybe not. Anyway, it is a beautiful theme. Let's give a listen to the theme to he and she 1967 through 68.

Now it was featured was a whole bunch of montages of Paula Prentiss and Richard Benjamin together on the beach together here was all done in New York City. But this was one scene in this you can see it on YouTube, you can go to YouTube and type in he and she and you can see the visual. There's this quintessential sort of anytime they showed New York someone had to be running through Central Park and they run through all these pigeons. Pigeons fly all over the place. And there's this flute that runs through it to sort of indicate the birds are flying. It really is a lovely fame. The show just the writing was lousy. And the show just never got off the ground ran from six again 67 to 68 it was over in a sneeze but the theme song is still for me. It's it's still just a it's sort of this sort of tuxedo version of that girl

Jeff Dwoskin 43:58

and it was partially an inspiration and opened the doors for The Mary Tyler Moore and specifically the Ted Baxter character.

Marc Myers 44:06

Exactly. Yeah,

Jeff Dwoskin 44:07

there you have it. Very interesting. Yeah, the other ones I started thinking of talking about another time would be like, welcome back. Kotter or cheer right those are some of those John's

Marc Myers 44:16

about John Sebastian. What a great song. That was a huge hit. Oh, Greatest

Jeff Dwoskin 44:20

American Hero. Yeah, Love Boat. Love. Oh, the LeBeau Paul Williams. Yeah, there's so many that I can still say, of exciting and new.

Marc Myers 44:33

Or Mannix Mission Impossible. They again, they set the mood of what you're about to watch. And their job was to hook you. And when I mean hook you, I mean, get you aggressive enough that you can negotiate negotiating with your parents to be able to watch it. Yes, I'll do my homework. I promise I'll rake the leaves. No, no, I'll do it. I promise that if you just let me watch the show, I mean, kids became great negotiators because the parents wouldn't let them watch TV. If it was In for television, an entire generation would have no idea how to negotiate.

Jeff Dwoskin 45:07

Well, this has been an amazing history lesson you make history fine. Marc Myers. Thanks, Jeff.

Marc Myers 45:13

If you want me to come back to talk just about the book, listeners should go check out anatomy of 55 more songs 55 every hit, you know, wouldn't you say? The listener knows every single hip? Yeah,

Jeff Dwoskin 45:23

I was reading through it. And I was like, oh, because I wasn't sure if we're gonna talk about that. And I started to cherry pick the ones that I loved. And I'm sitting there next day, and I'm writing down all 58 songs. And and, um, I love it. But yeah, I mean, it's like, ain't no mountain high enough, wait by the band and rising, she's gone. By howling out, she's gone. I mean, get your love, which I love that song mostly because Guardians of the Galaxy, right by like an eagle barracuda, go your own way. I mean, the list goes on and on. And in

Marc Myers 45:56

each case, I interviewed the artist on how the decisions were made behind each song. It's an

Jeff Dwoskin 46:02

incredible, it's sort of like what we just talked about for the TV, but about saw those particular songs and goes even deeper. I mean, you should write that book about the TV saw. Yeah, except

Marc Myers 46:15

I'm probably the only one who still remember some of the songs. But it's it's a lot of the a lot of these. The problem is, is that it is a great book by a lot of these composers and arrangers, they're all gone. And there's just nobody left to sort of get firsthand information from you know, I'd have to sort of start starting in the 90s, and work backward. They're just great songs. And I think listeners, you can go to YouTube and watch episodes of any of these shows. And you can listen to everything that I everything that we play today is on YouTube.

Jeff Dwoskin 46:41

All there. Marc Myers. Thank you so much for hanging out with me.

Marc Myers 46:45

It was a pleasure. Thanks so much. I really appreciate being with you. And also going through these it's a lot of fun.

Jeff Dwoskin 46:51

All right, how amazing was Marc Myers as we just might make good after all, right? Check out his book anatomy of 55 more songs. The oral history of top hits the change rock, r&b and soul is a bunch of other books as well. I'll put links in the show notes, but those are amazing deep dives. So check those out. Hope you enjoyed our our little trip down memory lane with some of these classic TV theme songs. Well with the interview over killing me one thing I know episode 310 has come to an end. Another huge thanks to my guest, Mark Meyers. And of course, a huge thank you to all of you for coming back week after week means the world to me, and I'll see you next time.

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