#308 How Stan Zimmerman Turned His Dream Into Reality

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Jeff Dwoskin 0:28

All right, Estelle, thank you so much for that amazing introduction. You get the show go and each and every week, and this week was no exception. Welcome, everybody to Episode 308 of classic conversations. As always, I am your host, Jeff Dwoskin. Welcome to what's sure to be one of the classic case episodes of all time, we're diving deep with my guest, Stan Zimmerman, author of The Girls from Golden to Gilmore stories about all the wonderful women I've worked with. And that's coming up in just a few seconds. And in these few seconds, Episode 307 George slaughter was here, creator of laughing talk about an episode full of stories. Do not miss that episode with George. All right now we've got tons of stories waiting for you from the Gilmore Girls from the Golden Girls. Roseanne, Vicki Lawrence, what Yes, Vicki Lawrence. Oh, we got everything. Dan Zimmerman and I dive deep into Detroit. We grew up very close to one another, not the same time but in the same location. So we got lots to talk about in terms of Southfield, Michigan, Detroit, Michigan, Michigan, all the connections, all the stories coming at you right now. All right, everyone. I'm excited to introduce my next guest producer, director screenwriter. He's written for the Golden Girls Roseanne fame author of the girls from Golden to Gilmore stories about all the wonderful women I've worked with. Turn over and Roseanne. Welcome to the show. Stan Zimmermann.

Stan Zimmerman 2:14

Thank you for having me.

Jeff Dwoskin 2:15

Great to have you. Stan. I love reading your book. It was great. And I love when I'm reading a book, and it talks about how you grew up in Southfield, Michigan. We always use it we grew up always saying were one of the few Jewish families that never lived in Southfield, but I did grew up in Inkster and 11 mile so the other side of Exeter was south south. And I spent most of my days because my cousins all lived in Southfield, Michigan,

Stan Zimmerman 2:43

as you should. So I was on 10 mile went to John F. Kennedy Elementary School. Thompson Junior High in Southfield high. My first job was the Americana movie theater, which I don't think is still in existence. But it was the first was one big theater and then they added on to three and four.

Jeff Dwoskin 3:00

Yeah, we used to have so many movie theaters. There was Old Orchard movie theater. There was how remember the town that either Yeah, so they just the maple which was the last place you guys are gone. Yeah. And then why? I think the rent came up and they just it was all of a sudden one day. They're like, we're done. We're closed. I just seen last movie I saw there was Barbie. So that was last time I was there. And then the big one in in Royal Oak that had been there forever. They tore down. No, I'm so sad. But yeah, all of the classics are as I grew up, I mean, it was like, every weekend I would see movies, you know, like, it's all I did was go see movies. Well,

Stan Zimmerman 3:42

my father was very strict. Why? What was he trying to prove with that? Maybe he was afraid or I would get involved in in the movie business. Well, we'll see how that worked out to finway. By my mom actually ended up taking me to a lot of indie movies and introduced me to you know, I didn't know what an independent film was. And one of them we saw was next up Greenwich Village to Paul Mazursky film, and I saw that and I was like, I'm going to New York. I want to be Lenny Baker. That movie is all about a boy leaving Brooklyn to move into Manhattan and to be an actor starring the great Elene from Little Shop of Horrors.

Jeff Dwoskin 4:19

I love Alan green. I have actual framed Little Shop of Horrors movie poster in my basement.

Stan Zimmerman 4:25

basements. I miss basement. So in my basement in Southfield was where it all began. This is where the newspaper twirls around, but I would drag the other neighborhood kids into the basement and make them do plays with me. I mean, the basement to me was where I went to escape and we had imagination in my brother, my sister will be down there playing and each had a little section. I think probably one of the first computers it was this huge thing. Now we have little computers it was like something from Lost in Space or something. And then my sister had an area and then my area I turned into actually a pseudo school Have a hand right before nursery school. She's still complains because she holds the pencil wrong. Still to this day, but I say but you are writing. So I taught her how to write cursive. Then also down there I created a puppet theater which my brother and I would, you know, for $5 do puppet shows for kids for their birthdays. And then I also did plays. And then I wanted to create remember the ice follies and Ice Capades? Yes. So I did not understand why there was not a roller Follies. And I was intent on making. The idea didn't go very far. But I still think it's a good idea.

Jeff Dwoskin 5:36

It's still one of the classic ideas. It's just sitting there waiting for you to waiting

Stan Zimmerman 5:40

for someone else to steal. Do you know how many ideas I've said to my writing partner, I'll I will like scream or send them screenshots of different movie and TV show ideas from the trades. We'd like to have a reporter variety that were ideas we talked about years ago. So we always say oh, we were so ahead of our time.

Jeff Dwoskin 5:57

I feel the same way at a internet company in the late 90s. One of the first ones and so we would write down stuff and I would call my my partner I'd be like we basically invented monster.com Wow, you know, they we had wrote down those ideas. We're like, how are we going to do this? Yeah.

Stan Zimmerman 6:13

Did you know Allie Willis? Do you know that is she wrote up September Boogie Wonderland, a Detroit her. I met her out in LA. She wrote the theme song to friends. She wrote the music to the color purple Broadway show. Yes. It's a few little songs. Anyway, she passed about, I think three or four years ago, they made a documentary about her which I'm in wearing my JL Hudson's t shirt. I found a t shirt with the old JL Hudson's logo on it. And I wore it in my interviews for the documentary. And it's premiering in March in at South by Southwest. But in her basement. I remember she called me over to her house. And she invented the internet. She was down there in the basement had this idea. And it's like everyone is connected to their computers. And then like Ali been smoking way too much pot. You've got to stop I spoke to many, like Mark Cuban and Bill Gates about this idea. You know, she would speak to conferences about connecting us all on some machine. And here we are. And here we are doing it. Yes.

Jeff Dwoskin 7:15

It's funny. You mentioned JL Hudson's I such a classic location. I was downtown performing at a forgotten harvest Comedy Festival when they imploded it and as a joke, Chuck Dado, who is the host walks in covered in dust, you know? Oh, that's funny. Yeah, it was probably a bad day to have a huge event downtown. But

Stan Zimmerman 7:39

well, I loved the Thanksgiving Day Parade, we would go every year, I still wanted to be in the parade so bad. It didn't happen. There was a girl from my school, Cheryl Loei, who got to be in the parade. And I was I'm still jealous and just furious with her. And I remember they had this for Christmas downtown, they had a children's shop. And you would go and you put all your money from your allowance, you know, which was probably like, you know, $15 and on the envelope you would check off by for your mother, your sister, your babysitter, your dog. And you had to figure out as a kid, how to budget that $15 For you know, eight people and get items. I thought that was such a smart idea to teach children. You know how to use your money wisely and pick out for yourself and use your imagination. My mother did something that like that. Remember those cereal packets?

Jeff Dwoskin 8:29

The boxes you could cut open and pour the milk right into? Yeah,

Stan Zimmerman 8:33

exactly. You know what I'm talking about. So she would buy those some catalogs. And she thought that was great, because it was a way for her three kids to create individual personalities. So it wasn't like throwing down the blackberries and say you're eating this you got to pick Well, what do you really like even at a young age, I knew that was a cool thing to do. Like I knew most mothers did not do that. So she really encouraged individuality and to you know, just follow your heart. And that's what I've been doing. It's

Jeff Dwoskin 9:01

amazing. My experience was the opposite. My dad was a dentist, so no sugar cereals. And when I turned 16 and had a driver's license, I would go buy contraband like Froot Loops and just hide it in my room. You

Stan Zimmerman 9:17

would just go over to ferals and just eat ice cream all day. Yeah, that hat Yeah, wear the hat go get the zoo that was Oh my god. I think about stomach a good Chinese

Jeff Dwoskin 9:26

food on Christmas and we're all set. That's

Stan Zimmerman 9:30

yeah, but it was funny in Detroit. I was such a picky eater. I didn't even eat Chinese food. I didn't even eat pizza. I just like peanut butter and jelly tuna fish and bologna. That was it. But we would go to wing Hong on 10 mile on Sundays of course. And we would order fried chicken. I mean the kids did.

Jeff Dwoskin 9:48

We hugs Yeah, wing Hong was the greatest Chinese restaurant ever.

Stan Zimmerman 9:52

It's still there. And I did go eat there. I don't know if I would call it that but it was fun to go back.

Jeff Dwoskin 9:59

All right. And then you went to New York and started doing all these famous things.

Stan Zimmerman 10:05

Well, I mean, I went to Cranbrook theater school. For many years, I started at age seven, and was out in Bloomfield Hills and outdoor Greek theater where I was accepted. And I was lauded and praised for my creativity and being funny. Whereas in elementary school and junior high, I was bullied for it. So it was very hard as a kid to navigate that, like, why I'm the same person. Why do some kids really liked me and other kids spit on me? That's a lot. You're out. And it wasn't until I went to Southfield high, where it all kind of came together. I guess I came into myself more and more confident.

Jeff Dwoskin 10:46

High school was a little rough for me and then college is when you could then you could be yourself again that I saw as well but yeah, it's it's it's tough when you're not well jock or whatever the school it's, it's not the easiest. And once I loved high school, I did. Yeah. Because I didn't

Stan Zimmerman 11:03

I did I did. I the only thing I could connect it to was in up to junior high. I had really frizzy hair in Detroit, you know, with the humidity. By the time I got school bus into school, it would be just a frizzy mess. And then I decided to let it go into a Jew fro. And I thought texting me because I have curly hair. I didn't. That's all I could say I was the same person. But I did have diff. So I'm sure you know that took up many hours of therapy as a young adult,

Jeff Dwoskin 11:31

but eventually found your own. So I had sort of theater you started with a love of theater basement to Cranbrook

Stan Zimmerman 11:37

well I was gonna go to University of Michigan like my brother did, and my parents and my aunts and uncles and everybody pretty much my family went to U of M. So it was just like, that's where you're going. And I only applied to two schools, U of M was one of them. And then after spending summers at a summer theater camp in New Hampshire, I realized that if you were serious about acting, you had to go to New York, or California. So there's a while I felt like I UCLA but York I got bitten by the theater bug and I was gonna go to New York, and auditioned and got in. And then my mom figured out a way to get me work, study and able to afford it. I remember, NYU started later. So all my friends from high school, I helped them move into U of M. Markley Hall, I felt so bad, like, did I make the right decision, and I used to be with my friend. And then I go to New York, and I was only 17. I was alone. I didn't know anybody, you know, you soon find your friends. And I'm still friends with them.

Jeff Dwoskin 12:35

It's amazing the bond you make when you go to college, and you're, especially if everyone's kind of all of a sudden on their own, this is a bit of a benefit to breaking away, because I'm sure you're still friends with or talk to the people who went to U of M. But now you have a wider friendship circle that

Stan Zimmerman 12:51

are really still friends with people I went to high school with, and we get together and we like, you know, we only knew each other for three years. But those three years were so intense. And also because the theater nerds that we were we spent every second together, we would meet at there the minute we got off the bus and we came back to the theater and had our lunch together. And then we would classes I guess. And then we came back to the theater to rehearse whatever play we were doing at the time. And then you know, go home sleep and started all over again.

Jeff Dwoskin 13:22

It is amazing how you can have I have friends like that from just a summer that I spent it was been a breath summer camps back to back. I just that was decades decades ago and I just was in New York at one of them for a drink and that's all the time we spent together was just like those six weeks out of my entire life and like like I can't even remember like any other summer like that summer like there was something magical. Yeah, when you have something kind of really kind of interesting. That happens and magical. It's a you're bonded forever.

Stan Zimmerman 13:53

I did go to Camp Tamarack for two summers. I worked there. Really? I didn't like it. But I went to Brighton, Brighton, I think twice. Were you at Ortonville or Brighton.

Jeff Dwoskin 14:03

I went to Ortonville. One summer I only went one summer but as a staff. I worked at Brighton. I was like the arts and crafts guy. And then I went to Ortonville because there was a girl that went and I thought she was cute. So I switched to didn't work out but

Stan Zimmerman 14:20

you chased her the cat. And where's she today? Yeah, I

Jeff Dwoskin 14:25

don't know. Where she today that and alone somewhere?

Stan Zimmerman 14:28

Yes. pining for you probably. Oh,

Jeff Dwoskin 14:32

it could have been. Yeah. All right. So you're, you're in New York and plays and then you kind of stumbled into writing like you adapted something

Stan Zimmerman 14:43

not stumbled I had in my bedroom and Southfield created my own TV network. So I was already in the mindset of I want to be involved in television. I didn't think I could ever be a writer. I kind of brag to everybody that I didn't read books. You know, people would come back somewhere and they'd be like, Hi read a Books and then get little stamps on their library card was something I was like I read zero just didn't have any interest in books. And I wasn't good in English class, because I felt that you had to kind of be fake and be very flowery and use the adjectives and just just like my writing was just cut to the chase. But I knew I had really cool ideas. I luckily met my writing partner, Jim Burke, who was a journalism major. So he kind of brought that craft to the partnership. And I brought the acting and as far as character work and emotional truth, it was a magical combination.

Jeff Dwoskin 15:36

Magic, you guys met on risky business, the set of risky? No,

Stan Zimmerman 15:40

no, no, no, we we met just in the dorm. And we would make each other laugh. And then we went to see a movie. And we, we found out we had passion for ideas and writing and television. And we started writing a pilot, actually based on nexdock Greenwich Village. And then we found that you had to write a spec script to get break into TV. And so we started writing spec scripts, in between school and our after school job, landed an agent to only handle newscasters and for some reason, took us on and sent our stuff out to LA. That was, this was a year after college, I was working at a casting office in 1501, Broadway, in Times Square. And our agent called and said, there's this man, Gary keeper who works at Paramount who read your scripts and really likes it. And I told my boss and he's like, alright, this is weird. He goes, Gary Cooper was one of my best friends in high school in Houston. What are the odds of that? Is the Right, right. So of all the people crazy, crazy, but it was just the way of the world just going you're meant to be here. And Gary just took us under his wing and was so helpful. And we went came out to visit and then I decided to move there because I was sick of being poor. And in New York, we went to a lot of free tapings of shows. And we kept writing, writing writing, we wrote one script for a very new show that hadn't been on the air yet. It was very different than most sitcoms, it was about a bunch of weird people that hang out at a bar in Boston. Can't imagine what that show would be. That was just a script that everybody responded to. And suddenly we went from nobody calling us back to all these agents taking us out for lunch and drinks. And we became the flavor of the month. And that kind of started the ball

Jeff Dwoskin 17:23

rolling. So it would cheer as being a newer show. Right? How do you prep for a spec script on a newer show? Is it the time, right? It's like the VHS tapes? I mean, it's not like it's how do you kind of watch and get a feel for the variety of characters,

Stan Zimmerman 17:38

no computers with scripts, even samples of scripts. So when we started writing spec scripts, the first one we did with Alice, it was a show with Linda Lavin, we watched the show on TV, there was no pausing. There's no tapes, or nothing. You had to watch the show as was happening. And I said with a pen and a piece of paper. And oh, there's a little scene and there's a commercial. There's one scene, there's two scenes, there's another commercial. That's how we figured out story structure. I did that. I don't know. I'm very analytical. And I like structure. So we looked at that. And we said, Okay, well, let's come up with the story and structure it just like their episodes. After watching a bunch of them, we saw a pattern, and we just created that pattern. And it's having an ear. So like we noticed on chairs, we didn't even read the script we just saw, they would come in and they would just say like, Hey, remember that that that was it. So we would add so we did we just kind of copied concept for the episode. Sam poses for Mr. February, like a sports sexy and funny. And Diane finds sees it by accident and all of that. And comedy and Sue's money.

Jeff Dwoskin 18:48

Awesome. It's impressive. I mean, how much harder you had to work back then,

Stan Zimmerman 18:53

like kids have? It's so easy now. Yeah, they just throw it in the AI and the script is done. We were our own AI back then. Now there's so many interesting new voices now. And there's so many more opportunities to have content, there's, you know, not only the network's slept to them, you know, but there's cable and streaming and your phone and YouTube. And I mean, you could just go on and on and on. Ya know,

Jeff Dwoskin 19:22

it's just it's impressive. I mean, cuz all the success you had was based on you have to work really hard. But

Stan Zimmerman 19:29

that's the Midwestern upbringing. I was taught if you want to succeed, you have to work hard. There was just no question. We were going to work when we were on staff. I would want to work weekends to write pilots or movies or other types of material.

Jeff Dwoskin 19:44

And what point did you decide? Because I know you auditioned for fame. You were in risky business, right? You did have I

Stan Zimmerman 19:50

did extra work. So I was still I auditioned for the movie of fame very early in my college years. So somebody came to school one day and said they're making money. Be there looking for people that look under 20. And even though I was in college, I looked like I was 15 and all my friends we all lined up and it was, you know, around the block unblock, unblock, unblock, they got slammed, they look at you and they, you know, they threw people out that look too old. They kept me my friends were all by leaving me there. And then they moved me to another group. And then all of a sudden they took the room by myself. And all of a sudden I was there with this British man with gray hair. And it was the director, Alan Parker. Nice. I didn't know till later, like, oh my god, this was like, this was the big time. And they had me read the part of Montgomery, the gay boy in the movie. Obviously I didn't get it. I didn't get it. I came home to Detroit and I worked as a dance and theater instructor at Cranbrook Theatre School, came back to New York early and had my first apartment in New York outside of the dorm and it was a cross school where they were filming the movie Fame. So universe taunting you, you don't get PARD. But you have to hear that goddamn song. And they had to be dancing in the street front of my window all summer. So that was that was lovely. But I got my revenge when Jim and I got an episode of The Fame syndicated series that we wrote. And that episode starred. Somebody you may have heard of, but named Janet Jackson. It was the first music video in that episode. It was directed by the great Debbie Allen. And we just lucked into that. That's awesome. Yeah. So what many? That was the beginning of my, a lot of full circle moments. And I love that because if it feels completed, it's done. Check move on. Like I

Jeff Dwoskin 21:36

loved you as Penny and good times. Yeah.

Stan Zimmerman 21:39

I remember seeing her in that. Yeah. And she said quite quite the career. Yeah,

Jeff Dwoskin 21:45

he's done. Good.

Stan Zimmerman 21:46

You did good. Yes. And I take I take full credit for

Jeff Dwoskin 21:50

it. Yes, of course. Without that music video. Oh, noes never would happen.

Stan Zimmerman 21:54

I always say that. So I also teach acting. And when I get these new actress and I said from this point on and the success you have, I'm going to take full credit. So when any of my actors and I've taught a lot of them over the years when they post about getting a job, I always type in and you're welcome.

Jeff Dwoskin 22:12

Well, you were risky business and all that good stuff. Did you did you meet Tom Cruise?

Stan Zimmerman 22:17

Of course. I met him twice. So the first time he came into the office in New York, I was an assistant for a casting director. And he said all this new actors coming in, he just made his first film. And it was taps, and in walks Tom Cruise with his head shaved from the movie. And he started bouncing up and down on our couch like he did on Oprah. I guess that's just the thing he does. And he was really, really sweet. And just you know, he was making a movie with all these young stars to be I ended up on it was a big casting call for extras for it. I get called in. I go down to Larchmont which doubled Chicago, and all of a sudden, they say oh yeah, you're gonna be walking down the street with Tom Cruise. Until my heart's pounding. I have to say something. And of course, I said, Oh, yeah, if you remember me, and he pretended like he did. So he's smart. And we had a really nice talk about taps. And here he was, you know, now starring in his own movie.

Jeff Dwoskin 23:15

Alright, so that's cool. So you were friends with Tom way back? Oh, yeah.

Stan Zimmerman 23:19

We were really close friends. He never calls me because

Jeff Dwoskin 23:23

it's kind of busy. Now. He's always making machines.

Stan Zimmerman 23:28

I actually with another writing partner, we wrote our idea of what the sequel would be too risky business. It was called What the eff. He's now divorced from Rebecca de Mornay. She takes the kids for a vacation that she says, Well, you watch our old hat. And he watches the old house and decides with his buddies to throw a party with hookers. You would have learned that's still a funny script. So Tom, you're out there. Hashtag Tom Cruise. I think it's time for a reboot of risky business. Little Tangerine Dream. Come on.

Jeff Dwoskin 24:03

I mean, it's a thing now. Right? I mean, all the old movies and stuff getting sequels now.

Stan Zimmerman 24:08

Yeah. Time to revisit. Yep. And he should do a comedy. I mean, he hasn't really done. He hasn't done comedy slightly. No.

Jeff Dwoskin 24:15

How funny. Was he in Tropic Thunder?

Stan Zimmerman 24:20

It depends. It depends. On that Ben Stiller.

Jeff Dwoskin 24:23

It was Ben so he's right. But, um, Cruz was like the thing he played like a Jewish kid. Yeah, like,

Stan Zimmerman 24:29

I'm looking right now. I can see Ben Stiller's old house. How's that? How's that for the gay Kevin Bacon. You name the star is Christine Taylor, who was Marcia in the Brady Bunch movies. They used to live around the corner from me but now they sold that they still sold it to David straighten and then Johnny Galecki bought it and Johnny just moved out. There you go. Hey, Brady. But Jeff,

Jeff Dwoskin 24:57

I believe that the Brady Bunch movie jobs excited to find out you wrote it is one of the belts. I love both of them. But the first Brady Bunch movie though I in my heart, I think is one of the funniest movies and best TV adaption type movies ever. Like that movie just kind of hit every every button for me.

Stan Zimmerman 25:19

I hit a lot of people in many different ways. A big part of it was for stoners. I'm assuming that was you want to have there you? You don't even know me. And you're talking to me that way? Yeah, it allowed us to like for me to lean into pop culture. I love I've been studying pop culture since a kid. And so we could play on all of that, and still honor the Brady Bunch legacy, and also introduce it to a whole new generation. So it was a super fun job. And I have to credit director Betty Thomas, for just allowing us to just open her mind and be as creative and crazy as you want. We were only stuck with locations. She said, I already know how we're shooting the movie. But within that location, you could change any word of dialogue you want. Like that's so we just went crazy, was we were crazy.

Jeff Dwoskin 26:11

You were crazy. It's a bummer that you didn't get that. I know you got the writing credit for the sequel, very Brady sequel, but it's a bummer that to put that much how the industry works. So you put that much into it. And don't even get even anything like a little 10 point.

Stan Zimmerman 26:25

Anything. I mean, the the money would have been nice, but it's also for me, acknowledgment that you worked on it you those are your jokes. Those are your characters. And that just doesn't make sense to me just be fair, find some words to say additional dialogue or rewrite by or something. You know, that's I'm not going to go on strike right now. I'll start picketing in front of my house about

Jeff Dwoskin 26:49

that. I will say I think the funniest scene in that movie, which I think of all the time. I don't know why but is the Davy Jones scene where the older moms start fighting. Like, yeah, like that was

Stan Zimmerman 27:03

that was all ours. That was all from this crazy head.

Jeff Dwoskin 27:08

Let me just say I've never been happier to meet someone's crazy head before. Because that honestly is like anytime I think of that movie. That's where I focus. That to me was like, why just like what I thought that scene was like joke was beyond brilliant. It took the idea of from the show, the older twisted. Yeah. And the older moms being the one that kind of fun because marshaling when it's like infatuated with them, right? I don't know. I always thought that was the funniest thing ever. I love the whole thing. But that to me that that's seen. And that version of that song,

Stan Zimmerman 27:40

right? Yeah, I was really into the monkey TV series growing up, and you love monkeys. I mean, I had never as a kid. I mean, that and Batman were like, What the hell and be which, I mean, those were very had like this weird sensibility that wasn't normal. For those who were just like, wow, I actually made this is so embarrassing. I don't think I've ever said that. You know, the diagram is like, it's in a box. Yeah. Direct the monkeys playing. I made my parents mail it to them in California. Like, where are two who I don't know how I desperately wanted to tell Davy Jones on set that in my writing partner was like, you cannot and I had even their album. That first album was I played to death. And I wanted to bring it in. And he's like, that's not cool. You cannot bring in your album and have them sign it. So that never happened. Thank you a lot. Jim Berg.

Jeff Dwoskin 28:31

Jim. Put you on the wrong path there. I will. You should be mad at him. And yeah, I saw the real live Brady Bunch.

Stan Zimmerman 28:39

So did we before the movie was even an idea. We had no idea that that was going to be something we saw it was so popular here. I'm trying to find how to do it as a revival. And I can't there's nobody that has the rights to it. But Jim and I went to sea and it was so huge. I think Shane Lynch was played writing, Carol. And I think Mike was any Rector. I mean, it was like, think of those two. And it was so popular. We had to sit on the floor there were not even like chairs in the theater. And then a few years later, I was set to take a trip to Athens and Mykonos and Santorini two days before our agent called and said, I think I got your first movie writing gig and it's the Brady Bunch movie. I'm like, Oh, really. And then they sent the script over, like right away. You gotta read it like tonight, stop everything packing. And I read the script. And I was like, Yeah, and it was like, I liked the idea of the Brady's in the past being stuck in the past, but today, right but didn't have many jokes about the Brady world. I felt it was a missed opportunity. So then nothing happened. I said that and then I fly to Athens and I lay on to get to my hotel, the phone rings. And I go Hello, and it's like a man on the other end, but it was actually Betty Thomas. She has such a low voice. Like it's Betty Thomas. You want to get back here right away. For me, and if we want to gag, I said, Give me two days in Mykonos and I'll be back and I spent two days and Mickey Mouse came back and was for just a two week punch up, which means just rewrite the jokes just two weeks that you're done. While they love that we did two more, and then two more in the dealmaking. But we did we did nicely by Yeah, that is

Jeff Dwoskin 30:22

amazing. I was saying with a real live Brady Bunch. We started the Strand Theater in Pontiac, Michigan, and to my I was dating my wife at the time, we couldn't really we had no money, so we would usher so we could see them all. Oh, there were four that they would do. Basically very one listening. It was like they literally did the script, but a very over the top and the Davy Jones episode was one of them. And Davy Jones played Davy Jones. No, yeah. Davy Jones came in. Yeah, he was there. My biggest regret to this day is like, I walked out, there's a line. I'm like, you know, I wasn't as into like, meeting people at that moment in my life as I would be now and I hate myself for not going and meeting him. I've met Mike and I met Mickey. They signed my headquarters album, and Peter Tork. I was going to a Comic Con to meet Peter Tork had my album. It was they had Stan Lee, the main guy, one of the main guys from The Walking Dead at the time. You couldn't get near the place. It took us four hours to try and get to suburban Ha, we bailed so then he passed away. So it was like,

Stan Zimmerman 31:25

so close. Yeah, I

Jeff Dwoskin 31:26

love the monkey so much. Alright, so then then you wrote,

Stan Zimmerman 31:30

she has more? Yeah, you

Jeff Dwoskin 31:31

wrote episode two of just our lock, the shambles show bail vows Isabel's in 1983. This is just before we're gonna get you on to the Golden Girls. Oh

Stan Zimmerman 31:42

my god. We're only at that the golden girl. People like let's do a drinking game at least.

Jeff Dwoskin 31:49

So sorry to interrupt, have to take a quick break. Well, I thank everyone for their support of the sponsors. When you support the sponsors, you're supporting us here at Classic conversations. And that's how we keep the lights on. And now back to my conversation with Stan Zimmerman. Let's talk Golden Girls. And we're back talking about the Golden Girls. I mean, that must have been amazing. Greatest shows of all time. Have you worked on three classic shows of all time Roseanne? And Golden Girls.

Stan Zimmerman 32:19

Yeah. I mean, you're lucky if you get one hit. But these are not just hits these shows are more popular today than they were back then if that's possible, so it's many decades of just continued popularity at the time, which you'll read in the book. Unfortunately, there was just so much fear in going to work every day of being fired or not being good enough not being funny. You couldn't make any misstep. I mean, these were for the funniest women to ever have been a television before during and after every line had to just be like top up so that's a lot of pressure for a new for anybody but a new writer. I'm really proud of the work we did on the show. I'm feel so fortunate when you're there in the beginning, especially in season one, you create a lot of things that continue on, you know, with like rose in the long stories and be Arthur just you know, giving her death stare, even naming St. Olaf we were in the room when when everybody came up with St. Olaf, but name and also I feel very fortunate to have carved a really beautiful friendship with Estelle Getty, who played Sofia, who usually writers and actors on the show are kind of kept separately or you're too busy writing to really get to know the actors. And I was really lucky that she took a shining to me and get to hang out with her and talk to her on the phone. I mean, how crazy is that? It's really cool. She'd be giving like me motherly advice. But that's what she was she was she liked playing that mother figure. And she was also in LA by herself. Her husband lived in Florida. And at the time, she said oh, you know, we're very independent. He has his own life. I did not realize I wanted to instill do want to write a one woman show about her. So I started talking to her kids and her managers and other people in their life. And I found that that they had a very estranged relationship. And that's why they were in separate cities. But here she was in LA, a superstar at that age, making tons of money. There were stories were like her managers had to say Estelle, you have to do something with your money. You can't just like buy a house. You have to buy a car and she's like, what's wrong with this old jalopy that I have? No, you've got to, and one time they made her buy a house and she didn't really want the house. I always remember she lived not far from me now in a on the third floor or second floor of an apartment just on Hollywood Boulevard. And she invited me over for a birthday party. And I'm just sitting there on the couch in her little apartment like you're a big star TV show. You should have a mansion but no she had like a little two bedroom house apartment. And I'm just sitting on the couch with her and the door swings open in walks Betty White and Blue McClanahan together. They drove together to this apartment party like okay, what happened Who picked to up But I mean, did they have dinner before? I mean, it was just, you know, and I would just sit there and pinch myself thinking I can't I'm feel so lucky to be sitting here and witnessing this up close, I

Jeff Dwoskin 35:09

can't even imagine it. It's, it's, it sounds extremely cool. It's, and then you only kind of connected with Susan Harris. Like one time you mentioned in the book until she yelled at you later,

Stan Zimmerman 35:21

one time at the wrap party, and she was so lovely to us. And oh, you're doing great work. And, you know, we're gonna see you, you know, enjoy your summer, we'll see you at the end of the summer. And then our option was not picked up. And then that was really devastating. My writing partner was fired because he didn't feel we were treated very well on the show. But I, you know, I loved writing those characters. I love to stay well, I had a lot more I think we could have contributed to the show. But you know, those politics of any job. And it wasn't until a few years ago, when we had another run in Miss Susan Harris, when we got a lot of publicity for a show you're trying to sell called silver foxes, which is was labeled in the press as a gay man's Golden Girls. And we did a kind of famous reading of it in my living room with the late Leslie Jordan and George K. And Bruceville, Lance and Sheri Oteri, and some other great actors. I guess she had heard about it. And I think it was around the time of the death of her husband, Paul Wade, who's one of the producers. And I think what happened was that people came up to her at his memorial and said, Oh, I hear you're doing a gay men's Golden Girls. And she's like, what? And she tries to match, she got my number and my writing partners number. My writing partner did not pick up the phone, and she left and long, very unpleasant, which is printed book. And she somehow I picked up the phone not knowing who it would be. And all of a sudden, hi, it's Susan Harris, and she was pissed off, and she starts attacking me. And I didn't you know, this was all like, during the metoo thing, and I'm like, I didn't interrupt her. But Susan, please, please, please just listen to me. You know, the name of business. I didn't make up that headline, those people saying what the show was? I said, every interview I've given, I've said it's not a reboot. I screamed your praises of that you created that show. And she was like, Oh, okay. You know, I just didn't you know, maybe she was in mourning or I don't know what, like, I can't get into her head. I mean, I didn't. I felt terrible and being attacked. Like that didn't feel good. But

Jeff Dwoskin 37:32

on the flip side, oh, my god, Susan Harris called me. Just kidding.

Stan Zimmerman 37:35

Yes, yes. No, I mean, I wanted I wanted her to like me, I want, you know, I was like, can't we like to have a drink and make up? I mean, I got her to calm down. But yeah, it was really it was it was really hostile to me, without knowing all the facts.

Jeff Dwoskin 37:53

Yeah, it's unfortunate. I mean, the media, the media does it all the time, all these clickbait headlines that make you think one thing in the article is usually or even about something completely different, but it's just so there was so the one thing about the book that I found really interesting and really liked was the thread you keep it, you've kept a journal throughout your life, and the journal entries that you put throughout the book to kind of color the story, from your own words at that exact moment. So it's not necessarily a retelling. But like, sometimes it's a little mix of both. I really liked that. I really thought that was a cool way to kind of look into your head and know what you were really thinking and then

Stan Zimmerman 38:34

today and like how I felt as a young person being thrown into these extraordinary circumstances, and working with extraordinary people. And then today, being older, wiser, we're not so sure, but I think maybe a little bit. Yeah, I liked the juxtaposition. It was funny because in college, my modern dance teacher made a start journaling, and I learned grumbling, I don't want to do that. Thank you will a con for getting me in the habit of journaling. And I'm still journaling. It's very therapeutic. I always like to look back a year ago at a time like what was where was I and I love doing a year end kind of capsule of what my year was and my favorite movies or plays, or my least favorite, December 31. And of course, a few years ago, I was busy doing it and all of a sudden, my phone just like was buzzing, buzzing buzzing is the passing of Betty White who everybody was hoping would make it to 100 A few weeks later, and she didn't so that New Year's Eve changed drastically. All my plans thrown out the window and I ended up doing a bunch of live interviews and talking about her. I think because I wanted people to really celebrate all the laughs that she brought us for so many years in so many different TV shows and movies.

Jeff Dwoskin 39:54

Yeah, that was the biggest bummer ever when Betty White died me because I think like everyone would be anytime Somebody anytime someone else would die, someone's the common thing on Twitter, whatever be like somebody grabbed the bubble wrap and wrap it around Betty White.

Stan Zimmerman 40:08

I mean, we've thought she would live forever, but nobody can live forever. It's

Jeff Dwoskin 40:12

amazing how much she lived during the time she lived. I mean, it was just like, it's an inspiration just that someone can max out their years, as well as Betty White did and the joy that you just brought while doing so

Stan Zimmerman 40:26

so many generations just loved her. And she was really at the beginning of television of the television industry. I mean, some people joke, they turned on television for the first time and there was Betty White.

Jeff Dwoskin 40:39

It's true. I was watching a Dean Martin roast, and they were making fun of her for being 50

Stan Zimmerman 40:46

My god, she's over the hill, you

Jeff Dwoskin 40:48

know, and it's just like, like, wow, that was 50 years ago.

Stan Zimmerman 40:53

Yeah. Oh my gosh, those Dean Martin rose. I had we had to go to the Roseanne roasts when we were on Roseanne, and they made us buy tickets to the table. I mean, oh, you know, isn't bad enough. But at the same Well, it's a day off from work, but no, like that was our day off. Was the friars roast down? Not televised. This was live in Beverly Hills, like the old timers. Oh, wow.

Jeff Dwoskin 41:16

I know, you've probably got limited on time here. But like so the Roseanne experience wasn't great. But the one thing that came out of it was meeting Amy Sherman, who you later had a good experience with on the Gilmore Girls. With rose abdpp also, Michigan zone rose abdoo.

Stan Zimmerman 41:34

Yes. How crazy I'm Bill Prady who I went to elementary school with and talked him into going to Cranbrook theatre school and he was also co created Big Bang Theory, but we ended up on staff at the same time. Three people from Southfield What are the odds of that?

Jeff Dwoskin 41:50

I know you don't usually see Southfield as being pinned as a entertainment entertainment mechanism. You

Stan Zimmerman 41:56

know, it is the epicenter of everything. Right

Jeff Dwoskin 42:00

you because you've hung out with Sandra Bernhard, Madonna, Michigan folks, or

Stan Zimmerman 42:05

Ali Ali Willis. Yeah, there's a there's a Lily Tomlin.

Jeff Dwoskin 42:11

Michigan's very underrated people don't think about Michigan. But if you Google stars from Michigan, there's quite a list that it starts rolling down your screens.

Stan Zimmerman 42:19

A lot of creative people there. And normally, you know, these people get out quickly. I wasn't until I was a young adult. I went back for a visit and I finally went to the Motown Museum. Oh, that's

Jeff Dwoskin 42:32

great. That's a great place.

Stan Zimmerman 42:33

Oh my god. You just I could feel it in the wall. You just felt there were ghosts. And there was there was just this vibe in that room. It was just eerie. It was pretty cool. It

Jeff Dwoskin 42:44

was really cool. Oh, so one random thing I read in your book. You talked about Vicki Lawrence explaining the nights the night? Yeah,

Stan Zimmerman 42:53

Georgia. Yeah. So that was on Roseanne so if people remember the end of Roseanne, there was all these really funny what we call tags like little minute or two minute piece at the end of the show that they would normally cut off in syndication but to make more money with commercials. Well, that week, Roseanne and Tom got into this huge argument after the table read on Monday behind the set. And then we heard a door slam and then Tom came out and said Roseanne is what I remember that she's she will not be in the show this week. And you have to write her out of the episode. I like well, what are we going to do? The show was called Roseanne. We were told every scene even if she's not in it. Roseanne has to drive the story. So we went back to our offices going What the hell just happened and we came up with this idea. We remember that Dan had talked about some girlfriend that Roseanne was jealous up from high school. So we brought that character to life and we cast Vicki Lawrence. So then it came time to Alright, we got to come up with a funny tag. Me and Jim and a bunch of writers like Norm Macdonald or Kiplinger, we all went to room pitched ideas. And I was loved that song. I actually have the 45 I still have all of Vicki Lawrence's song The Night the Lights in Georgia. I loved The Carol Burnett Show when I could stay up, you know, as young and I would fall asleep probably by 1020. I said we have to explain that song because it makes no sense. She loved the idea. So it's Vicki Lawrence with a chalkboard, explaining what the lyrics mean. And they mean they don't mean anything. Anyway, so that was fun to do crazy stuff like that. The

Jeff Dwoskin 44:22

funny thing, I love that song, like if I only hear it randomly on Sirius XM every now and then I will never turn it. And actually a few weeks ago, it was on I was listening to it. My wife turns that and I snapped, like oh my god, I'm like, What do you just do? She's like, she's like that it's the first song ever. Like, that's the beauty is in the craziness that it exists

Stan Zimmerman 44:51

at all that there was this woman from a variety show had a record that was a hit record. Like that's pretty random. Yeah.

Jeff Dwoskin 44:59

I So you wrote the lesbian kiss episode. So that's a that's a very famous episode. Yes. Very cool. And then Gilmore Girls and you write plays now. We're at the end of it. Yeah, they are done. Why? Yeah. Would you can everyone can read the book too. We don't want to tell every Yeah, come

Stan Zimmerman 45:16

on, like, let them do a little work here. Yeah. And it reads, I really wanted the book to feel like you were just hanging out having coffee, or, you know, a drink or something. And it's very conversational. And yeah, cuz I've never written a book before. This was something very new. And I'm really glad I did it after talking about it for over eight years. Well,

Jeff Dwoskin 45:35

the Stan Zimmerman story is very enjoyable. And I loved that. And it's like, it's just, you've done so much. And like, I don't know, I was I read a lot of these books. And so I thought it was great. Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. Yeah, I mean, you have so much, there's no filler. It's like, it's all just great, great stories. And then on to the next great story. Well, you know, we got to go, they didn't like us here. So we went here to do this. So we did that. And it's like, well, it's

Stan Zimmerman 46:06

also a lesson in which I saw looking back at it, how you pick yourself up from adversities, and people may think it's very glamorous, which it is, but also, it's a lot of uncertainty, and no security in your job. And how do you pick yourself up? How do you reinvent yourself? How do you keep going? How do you in a business that always are people telling, you know, how do you not take that personally, and think that you're just the worst writer ever, and you know, then losing very close people in your life. And so it does deal with grief and how I processed and I'm still processing all of that.

Jeff Dwoskin 46:43

Yeah, that your story about your mom are you kind of touched home with me in terms of the losses that I've had as well. So it's, it was very, an endearing chapter and way to end the story with all the cheated had done.

Stan Zimmerman 46:57

I was not planning at them that way, I would rather have had the book come out and and gotten to give my mom a copy of it. But that's not how the story went, unfortunately, it's

Jeff Dwoskin 47:09

amazing how she inspired and supported you throughout. And it was a

Stan Zimmerman 47:15

still does, and still does. And I still talk to her probably more now than ever. So she's probably watching this and saying, like, come on enough already.

Jeff Dwoskin 47:24

Well, it was an amazing tribute to her the way you ended the story from where your story ends now, because I know it's you're just getting going you're just yo do many more getting

Stan Zimmerman 47:34

going. But I would not be here if it wasn't for her and her tenacity and her belief in me against a lot of dogs. That means a lot to a child. And she would always brag like, you know, how many parents you know, allow their son to get ballet slippers and go to theater camp. She was she knew that that was really unusual. And I think she found great pride in that. She saw something in me that she wanted to nurture and I can never repay her. Thank goodness.

Jeff Dwoskin 48:04

That's a mother's job. And it sounds like she nailed it.

Stan Zimmerman 48:07

She did nail it. So thank you for acknowledging that stand.

Jeff Dwoskin 48:11

This has been a pleasure. Thank you very much for hanging with me and sharing your stories. It's always good to talk to another Michigan alum.

Stan Zimmerman 48:21

Cool. Thank you.

Jeff Dwoskin 48:23

All right. How amazing is Stan Zimmerman so many great stories he has done so much? Definitely check out his book, The Girls from Golden to Gilmore stories about all the wonderful women I've worked with. And Roseanne, it's a really fun read. Definitely check that out. Link in my show notes for Yeah, well with the interview over Can I mean, one thing I know I can't believe it either. The interview has come to an end. Another huge thank you to Stan Zimmerman for hanging out with me. And of course, a huge thank you to all of you for coming back week after week. It means the world to me, and I'll see you next time.

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