#306 CHEERS to Phoef Sutton

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Jeff Dwoskin 0:28

All right, Shelly, thank you so much for that amazing introduction. You get the show going each and every week, and this week was no exception. Welcome, everybody to Episode 306 of classic conversations. As always, I am your host, Jeff Dwoskin. Welcome to another amazing episode of Classic conversations. This is the one where everyone knows your name, we are talking with Phoef Sutton. He was the showrunner of a little show you may have heard of called cheers. He's done a lot and we're gonna dive into a bunch of it. And that's coming up in just a few segments and in nice few seconds. If you love Connecticut, if you love movies, well then do not miss episode 305 With Eliana Douglas because we cover both an amazing episode but also amazing right now. My conversation with Phoef Sutton. We're talking all about his career show running for cheers working with Bob Newhart is hilarious yet short live show. Thanks so much. We're diving in and that's coming up right now. All right, everyone, I'm excited to introduce you to my next guest two time Emmy Award winner producer New York Times bestseller legendary writer for cheers new art Bob, welcome to the show. Phoef Sutton. Hey, what's up Phoef?

Phoef Sutton 1:55

i How are you doing?

Jeff Dwoskin 1:56

I'm doing great. I'm doing great. Thanks for hanging out with me. Good, good.

Phoef Sutton 2:00

Yes,

Jeff Dwoskin 2:01

you are have been showrunner on so many iconic shows. Do you ever just pinch yourself? You got to pinch yourself?

Phoef Sutton 2:09

Well, I pinch myself when I'm when I'm doing it because I can't believe I get to do it. I love running shows. I just finished running a show for Hallmark our comedy drama called Chesapeake shores. And that was a wonderful experience. I'd made it up in Vancouver Island and British Columbia. And it was it was just marvelous. It was just marvelous. I loved it. So it Yeah, it's still it's still fun.

Jeff Dwoskin 2:31

How do you get connected to run a show? And it's a combination of things. Right? It's it's one you're there. And then you evolve into the role and sometimes you create the role, right? Yeah,

Phoef Sutton 2:43

I mean, it's, it's a hard position to get to and everybody wants to get to it. I originally got to it through Cheers. I was a staff writer on chairs. That was my first job on television. And I stayed with the show for years, of course, because everybody did because it was such a great show when you didn't leave that show. But you know, over time, people did leave. You know, David Angel, Peter Casey and David Lee went off to do wings. I and Bill and Sherry Stein Kellner took over the show, then in the I don't know who's Kirsty second year. So I guess that was the seventh year. So I was promoted through the ranks from our started as a staff writer became a story at a dirt became executive Story Editor became a co producer became a producer became a executive producer.

Jeff Dwoskin 3:31

Let's go back in time for a second to how you got that job. Because that's an interesting story, as well. You'd written a spec script for a different show.

Phoef Sutton 3:39

Yeah. Well, I mean, I didn't really know about how the business really worked. I mean, my entire knowledge of writing for television came from the Dick Van Dyke Show, watching the duck vandaag show that was that's actually pretty accurate. I had a friend who I went to college with them Barbara Hall, we both went to James Madison University in Harrisonburg, Virginia go Dukes, she was a year or two ahead of me and she worked on the newspaper together, and she was writing for the show Newhart, The Bob Newhart second show the one in Southern Vermont in the hotel, she sort of mentored me and told me that what you do when you want to get on the staff of our show, then what you did, then it's not so much what you do now. But what you did then was you write a spec script, sort of an audition script for an existing show. So I wrote in an episode of for Newhart, and you read it, and she helped me with it, and I rewrote it, it got into the office, and then she and everyone she knew left the show at the end of that year. So it was in the office, but nobody who knew me from Adam to care about it, and I forgot about it. And three years later, somebody called me from new heart and they'd read the script. I don't know why they bothered to read the script. It must have had nothing to do that day and it got that far down in the pile. By then they entire not only had the writing staff changed, but the entire supporting cast had changed. So the show I wrote was, you know, outdated, but they liked it. They thought it was a good writing. And they took me to lunch. And they were encouraging of a they didn't have any positions for me or any, any scripts for me, because in those days, a television show, which had a season for a television show, then we'd go like 26 episodes, you know, it's hard to believe when Now they only go eight or 10, but they go 26 episodes, the show had to hire two freelance writers to write two scripts a year, that was a Writers Guild rule, they don't have that rule anymore. They should, because it's a good way of introducing new people to the business and to the shows. So anyway, they didn't have any freelance scripts to give me but they liked me. And they gave me a free lunch. So that was good. Barbara's agent, then looked at the script again, and it's pretty good and send it around. And one of the places he said it, too, was cheers. And Heidi Perlman read it, and they liked it. And they had me in to pitch and I eventually wrote a freelance episode. And the next year I was hired on staff. But it was a very roundabout, weird path that I when people ask me, how do you break in? I can't tell them that because that's what's just so odd. Everybody's intro to the businesses, some odd little circuitous route,

Jeff Dwoskin 6:21

what goes into what prep? What do you do to prepare yourself to write a spec script, I'm assuming it's probably similar prep with you do a freelance script, except the freelance script you're getting paid for?

Phoef Sutton 6:34

Well, writing a spec script isn't really something that you do nowadays. But what you did, then, you know, you just watched the show a lot, get to know it, and then write it and you're almost it's almost guaranteed that that script won't get you a job on the show that you wrote it for. Because no matter how well you think, you know, the show, you don't know it, as well as the people who are working on it, you don't know all the stories they've rejected and all the stories they every story they've done before, because this was before the days of streaming and video DVD where you could you could literally watch every episode for you, I just had to watch as many as I could. But it can show a somebody on another show who doesn't maybe doesn't know the show that you wrote it for that well, that you can construct a plot, write funny dialogue, capture the characters voices fairly well, and do what you need to do to write a script so that the idea then was watched a lot, right it you hopefully you have a copy some copies of scripts, so you can format it the same way. Nowadays, what people tend to do is write a spec pilot, a pilot for your own show that you that you're imagining, then people read it. And note the same things, story construction characters, funny dialogue, if it's a comedy, dramatic dialogue, if it's drama, and whether it works or not. And again, you know, when you write up a pilot spec, it's very, very, very unlikely that anybody will pick up that pilot and decide to do it as a pilot, but somebody might read it and say, you know, this guy can write this guy can write, and then you it's basically an audition for you as a writer. And also, it's good to write these things constantly anyway, because every time you write something, you learn more, and you get better at it get better at it. It's very important to write all the time I write almost every day. And I still do. I'm fortunate in that I actually enjoy writing. I know a lot of writers who claim not to enjoy writing, I like to write or

Jeff Dwoskin 8:29

the freelance script for chairs, how much did they help you succeed? Did they help? Well,

Phoef Sutton 8:35

I'll tell you about the I had no earthly notion about how to pitch an episode for a TV show or an existing TV show. So they the first thing they do is they have you come in this is this was in pre production No, before the show was in, in production between I think the second third and fourth year I think it was you know that you you're supposed to come in with story ideas. Well, I didn't know how to come up with story ideas. I came up with a lot of terrible story ideas, you know, corny, stupid story ideas, and nothing, nothing sparked them. But somehow or another, they were I guess they kind of liked me, because they had me and again, this time I was with Ron and less Charles who created the show. And again, I came up with a bunch of story ideas. None of them went, it was one joke that they like in one of my ideas. And then they built a story around that joke. Although that joke didn't end up being in the show. I don't even remember how that joke related to the story they ended up giving me but they ended up giving me a story which I wrote taking notes, vociferously and all that sort of thing. And they said, Okay, go out, write an outline, bring it back in. And we'll give you notes on that. So I had an assignment. It was great. I was thrilled. I didn't know how to write an outline for a script for a network television show, but they gave me some some samples of theirs. And so I wrote it and I came in again and they pick it apart, gave me notes on the script and then I went and wrote the script, Rob that in that give me more notes on that rewrote, that brought it in again gave it to them, boom, it was it was done. And I was very happy. And then they invited me to the taping of the show to the filming of the show, we shot it on film. So I was in the audience up in the audience with the warm up guy talking to us and all that sort of thing. And I was watching the show. And and I don't think there was a line of dialogue that was the same for my script. And I was just, I was just crushed, I was feeling like, oh, I failed, I hadn't done a good job. And, you know, the scenes were basically shaped the same way they were the same things happened in them, but all the lines were changed. And then the last scene was pretty much a lot of it was the same. And the final joke was the same. I've had I felt I failed miserably. And I went down on the stage. And everybody was after it was over, just because I felt that I should say hi to them. And sorry, they were very happy to see me they thought I did a great job. And I realized, in retrospect, later on, when I was working on scripts that particularly from a freelance script, all you really want is something that gives the structure of it that gives the bones of it, you know, maybe a couple of jokes will work. But every script, even the scripts that I would write, when I was running the show, or that Bill and Sherry would write or the David Lloyd would write, they all changed drastically the week of production because, you know, you see rehearsals, you think of better jokes, you get tired of the jokes that are in there, you replace the jokes, you do that. And so every script is always dramatically rewritten. And every script any scripts that you see on that show, no matter what, whose name it is, as written by it was written by the room. It was written by the the writers, all the writers in the room. And so in that sense, I succeeded. It was a success. The next year they asked me to be on staff and I was thrilled to be on staff. I would have been thrilled to be on staff I know of any show, but this was the best show on the air.

Jeff Dwoskin 11:52

That must have felt really good. Yeah. Oh, yeah. I

Phoef Sutton 11:55

felt great. It was It was terrifying. It was a very, I mean, the room was filled with everybody in the room had one anatomy. Everybody in the room. There were legends. There was David Lloyd, there was Ken Lavon. And David Isaacs, that was Glenn in less Charles that was Jerry Belson, there was Bill and Sherry Stein Kellner, everybody was high up. And so I was terrified. I didn't speak for the first three months, which I think they appreciated. There were three writers hired the year that I joined the show three beginning writers. And I was the only one that made it to the end of the year that all the other two were let go. I was just terrified the entire first season that I would, I would be let go.

Jeff Dwoskin 12:32

Right. Because at this point, you didn't know that this freelance script writer was going to one day be showrunner. Yeah, but

Phoef Sutton 12:40

mind you the the two writers who were let go ended up being showrunners of other shows too. And so they did fine. But still, it was a great learning experience. But it was really the, you know, my graduate school and I didn't know anything about television I had worked, I'd written mostly for theater. And I think the people who who become comedy writers usually come from their improv actors or their people for who wrote for advertising, their son, their musicians. They come from all sorts of different fields. But I was one of the few that came from theater from playwriting. So I knew the experience of seeing a show on stage and knowing how it worked. But I didn't know anything about television or the terminology of television or anything. They don't give you any orientation. They just throw you in and hope you hope you make a fool of yourself.

Jeff Dwoskin 13:29

So you started season four, that's the same season Woody Harrelson started Yeah,

Phoef Sutton 13:35

yeah. So I didn't know Nicola, Sancho, about I started the season Woody. Join the show. Yeah.

Jeff Dwoskin 13:41

So even though you didn't know, Nicolas, you came in at a very transitional point of the show, replacing this major character. Yeah.

Phoef Sutton 13:49

And that was a, everybody spoke very fondly of Nick. And that was a, it was really hard on everybody. But at the same time, everybody loved Woody, and he was a great guy. And real funny that we're around the same age. So we were starting together, it was a fairly tight show, in the sense that there wasn't a huge divide between the actors and the writers. George Wendt was very friendly to me, he still is, and everybody we're all working together to do the show. We didn't have that sense of oh, they're the actors and were the writers we were working my way

Jeff Dwoskin 14:18

but they act as much they had a real fondness for themselves for that many people you know, jealousy you know, things can happen people can get shook heads all that kind of stuff. It sure there

Phoef Sutton 14:29

were there were there were issues. Mostly it was a very Happy Show wasn't like a show like yours shows about whether people count the number of lines they have are opposed to somebody else, or you know, they really hate the other people. That was not none of that. It was you know, sometimes people got on peoples nerves, but when you're working together closely every day for 11 years, that's gonna happen. But in general, it was a pretty happy show. And I think it was mostly because a fish stinks from the head and Ted Danson is just the sweetest guy. The nicest guy in the world and he was not a jerk. And so none of the other people could really get away with being a jerk either.

Jeff Dwoskin 15:08

Ted Danson is one of the greatest of all time. Yeah,

Phoef Sutton 15:12

no. Yeah, he's absolutely absolutely. And nothing like the character of Sam Malone. I mean, that was real acting performance. He's nothing like that.

Jeff Dwoskin 15:19

What's he like, in real life?

Phoef Sutton 15:21

Always sweet, intellectual kind of, obviously very liberal. He had a he had a wonderful lack of confidence about I remember, I wouldn't come in there was with me at one point every year would you would come in the show and say, I still know how to hit on these women all the time. I don't know how to do and how to do. I was, you know, the one of the main things of his character, and he did not really know how to do that. We would tell him, you're doing fine. That's funny that he was not a athlete either. Actually, originally, that part was written for him to be a football player. And when Ted was cast, it was they saw thought he looked more like a baseball player, which he does. You know, he couldn't I mean, there's one episode where a we have a dream sequence where he's throwing the ball. And you know, he couldn't he just couldn't, couldn't throw a ball like a baseball player. But oh, well, that's

Jeff Dwoskin 16:07

really funny. In Season Six is when Kirstie Alley joins. That's another huge probably one of the greatest transitions of all time. I mean,

Phoef Sutton 16:17

well, yeah. And we were terrified. Yeah, I mean, everybody, everybody was understood why Shelly laughed. I mean, the show been gone for six years, the salmon dancing had really run its course, if she'd stayed with the show, I think the show would have gotten for another year, and then it would have been over. So it was a great opportunity for the show to start fresh. But no show had ever lost its lead actor and gone on to succeed. I don't think I don't think any show has ever done that. And Shelley really was the lead. I mean, I mean, when you when you look at the shows chose from her seasons, she's the main character of almost every episode. And and whenever we would have a problem with a show with a show with a story that wasn't quite working, it was always what can we get Diane into it, because she, you know, she had a lot of she wanted a lot from life. And she thought she knew better than everyone else, and all that. So it was they were very, the Charles brothers were very adamant about when to replace a character, you don't replace the character with the same when they replaced coach, they didn't replace them with another old baseball player, they replaced him with a character that was totally different, still kind of dim, but you know, young, fresh faced all that. So the idea was, you know, to bring in a hard nosed businesswoman that Sam could spar with, you know, there will there were always people always compare the show to to Tracy and Hepburn. And this was, I think the idea was to make her more like Hepburn, you know, may make her really somebody that he could butt heads with in a very dramatic way. And then they cast Kirstie, who, unlike the rest of the cast, almost all of the cast came from big, you know, real strong theatre background, she did not come from a theatre background, she had not done much theater at all, nor he done much comedy say the truth, we didn't quite know why they, they chose her. And obviously, this was, you know, an opportunity, huge opportunity for the show to fail. But we had a couple of things going for us that weren't planned for one thing that was a part of the show is always been the conflict between the sort of the blue collar guys and the intellectual types. Frasier was already in place to sort of take that intellectual role. So Christy didn't have to do that. She wasn't going to come in and talk about poetry and ballet anymore. Fraser could do that. And the rest of the cast also, you know, they'd grown and were so strong that awaits the show became an ensemble show more when Kirsty joined the show, but it was there were some growing pains. There were some growing pains. Definitely. She was a wonderful comedian or was sorry, I still can't believe she's gone. She was a wonderful comedian, a sweet person. Wonderful, wonderful, silly. Absolutely. Not in the least bit vain. didn't mind looking totally ridiculous. It was really fun to work with.

Jeff Dwoskin 19:01

Yeah, I didn't hurt she was hilarious. Yeah. And actually,

Phoef Sutton 19:05

the first rule the rule as the head of vision for her the hard nosed martinet character, she couldn't really play that well. They didn't really work that well there was at the last scene of the of her first episode, the scene in the office between the two of them wants to shot that one every week for like six weeks and at the end of every episode, we'd shoot it again, which you did again, we tried to get it right and we couldn't get it right and she wasn't that good at that sort of thing. But then I think around the I don't know when it was like the third or fourth episode Raglan lesson written as as well. And she it was revealed that she was in love with her her boss and she she cried in it and she's just one of the world's funniest criers. And so we've wrestled that's what it is. She's not really this hard nosed businesswoman, she just trying to put on an act and actually she's a fragile bundle of nerves and all that and then We had it, and then it was fine from then on out, then it was great than we knew what we had. But that's the sort of thing you can only get when you work with the actors for an extended period of time and know what they're like, know what they are. Yeah, that

Jeff Dwoskin 20:11

show is blessed with so many amazing people.

Phoef Sutton 20:16

One of the other reasons the show could last so long was that the cast did change. I mean, Nick obviously passed away. And Shelly left the show. But also, you know, Frasier came in, he was only supposed to be in for a few episodes, and he came in and he was great. And he became a major character. Lilith was only supposed to be in one scene, and she was great. And more and more and more became a regular, all these people that were so that when you were writing, you know, your eight, it was very different show than your three and had a different cast. And that was something that I think people don't people with the two long running shows should should bear in mind, you know, you have to have to keep it fresh that way. And of course, then in year, I don't know your eight I guess everybody sort of realized you don't leave that show. And then it did start to repeat itself a little bit more in your 10 and 11 910 11. But what can you do?

Jeff Dwoskin 21:11

What do you consider the greatest thing you wrote when it chairs or oversaw or okayed that went on to be iconic? Well,

Phoef Sutton 21:19

I mean, my favorite episode that I wrote of cheers is the one called Dinner at eight ish, where Lilith and Fraser have Sam and Dan over for dinner, their pastor Fraser and dance past comes out and little did know that they have a big fight and all that it was just a good bedroom forest with a lot of slamming doors. And I really love that episode. Yeah.

Jeff Dwoskin 21:39

Awesome. where everybody knows your name. Sorry to interrupt. Let's take a quick break. Do you want to thank everyone for the support of the sponsors when you support the sponsors? You're supporting us here at Classic conversations. And that's how we keep the lights on. And now back to my conversation with Phoef Sutton. We're going to talk about life after cheers. And then you left. I

Phoef Sutton 22:03

left before the show ended. I would have stayed probably if I had known that the next year was going to be the last year but nobody nobody knew that Ted decided to end the show in 11th. Year, and yeah, I left to do another show with Bob Newhart Bob didn't last but was I thought a very good

Jeff Dwoskin 22:20

show. You also though, worked on Newhart though, right? I mean, I got you writing the spec script. But you did work.

Phoef Sutton 22:26

I wrote. Yeah. My first year as a freelance writer, I wrote an episode of Newhart, and that episode of a couple of other shows you have never heard of, you could make a good living as a freelance writer in those days, not so much now. And I really needed it because I was, you know, I had gotten married and I was having a new baby and all that was coming in. So I would have it was a lifeline that was thrown to me, just when I desperately needed it most.

Jeff Dwoskin 22:51

What was the connection and new heart that later they were able to pull you away from chairs for Bob?

Phoef Sutton 22:56

Well, I mean, you know, obviously, when you're writing for cheer us up, people are coming coming up to you all the time and saying you want to do this one or that one. It is to honor that, but nothing really, you know, struck my interest and till and I've been a huge Bob Newhart fan ever since I was a little kid and I listened to the album's and I loved the first show. And the second show, and when when I heard he wanted to do I'd met him when when we did the freelance one, and was so but when I heard you wanted to do a show, when on the show, I thought, yeah, sure, why not? That'd be great. I did it with Bill and Sherry Stein color. And you know, I thought it was a very good show. But it didn't last. Yeah.

Jeff Dwoskin 23:34

It was like his only one that can really kind of catch fire. Right? Oh, he

Phoef Sutton 23:39

had another he had another one that did last. Ga Oh, he had another one with Judd Hirsch. And you know, the year it started was the same year that Everybody Loves Raymond started on CBS that were both on CBS. They got essentially about the same ratings, but they decided to give Everybody Loves Raymond another chance and they didn't decide to give Bob another chance. And Everybody Loves Raymond, of course, went on to do legendary business and nobody remembers Bob. I

Jeff Dwoskin 24:06

remember Bob. I do. Like you think it was based on loosely based on and being like a Bob Kane, right? Because he was a comic book.

Phoef Sutton 24:15

Yeah, he was a comic book artist. And it was before comic books were like ahead of the curve. And in all the ways you're not supposed to be, you know, we it was a comic book show before comic books became a big deal we I went to, I went to Comic Con to research it. And, you know, Comicon, then was just literally a comic book festival in San Diego. That couple of 100 people went to, and it's not the major event that it is now, but it was getting a great cast.

Jeff Dwoskin 24:43

Were you with him for both seasons, the retool with Betty White and Lisa Cujo.

Phoef Sutton 24:48

That was a funny story. They used to do upfronts in New York at the end of the year when they announced the new season and that's when they make the decisions about whether the shows are going to be canceled or picked up. And so it was after the first year we had done Okay, done. Okay. But we heard that CBS wanted to use and be a younger network and didn't want to be the old network. They were always perceived as being and that they didn't want to, they were probably going to cancel the show. So we went to New York, the villain, Sharon, I went to New York, and we thought, well, we everything we heard was the show was going to be dead. So we thought, Well, why don't I just try to throw a throw something up there. We'll try to persuade them that we're going to change it totally. And we had a data set where I left him wasn't a comic book artist anymore. He was a greeting card artist, and he now about Bye, bye. It was all just a Hail Mary that we knew would fail. And it did indeed fail. They said, no, sorry, the show's not going to be on the schedule. We're not going to do the show. And so you know, we flew back to LA thinking, well, at least we tried. And then I went back, I think it was home from the airport. I walked into the kitchen and the phone rang, and they said they picked it they decided to change the mind that couldn't cancel Bob Newhart, and then we're gonna pick the show up. But then we had to do all those changes that we just kind of made up on the fly, never thinking we'd have to do them. And it was still a good show Betty White back. God, I've worked with her. I worked with her many times over the years I've worked with one Boston Legal she was a tremendous actress and a great person, but it didn't work. You know.

Jeff Dwoskin 26:21

Eric Allen Kramer was on that as we go and Kramer Yeah, it

Phoef Sutton 26:25

was a great one. And was Jerry Jerry Burns was on a jury burns. Yeah. Do you? Just see when the sun was still with it, then it's very hard to guess why things work and why they don't. And

Jeff Dwoskin 26:37

then you were a consultant for News Radio.

Phoef Sutton 26:40

Yep. Yep. I

Jeff Dwoskin 26:41

was on NewsRadio. Yeah, that was the film that fell Harmon years or after it was just after

Phoef Sutton 26:46

and it was that was it was the show? That was horrible. It was a horrible thing that happened to Phil. I never knew him. But I knew a lot of people that didn't know him. And everybody said he was the sweetest guy. No, that was a difficult year. Yeah. Yeah, that

Jeff Dwoskin 26:59

was that was the worse. Everybody loved Phil Hartman. He was one of my faves. Yeah,

Phoef Sutton 27:04

I love the ones on The Simpsons. He's so great.

Jeff Dwoskin 27:06

So you mentioned working with Betty White on Boston Legal. You spent a lot of time at Boston Legal? Yeah. What was it like working with David de Cali James Spader William Shatner

Phoef Sutton 27:17

was great. It was great. I mean, I have you know, I've been in the business for 34 years, and I've had in that time, I've had three steady jobs. I had cheers for eight years. I busted them to go for three years and I had Chesapeake shores for two years. Other than that, as always gone from one job to another head says that's the burden of this of this career. You go from one job to another, but that was great. That was a great experience. It was wonderful. And the cast was terrific. Candice Bergen was a sweetheart William Shatner was very fun, very, would sit and hold court. James Spader was a bit of a handful, but he was great. It would vary between you know, some years, David, David Kelly wasn't very involved in it. So we could, you know, we could write it the way you you know, we saw it and then other years he would be he would be very involved in it. And you basically write everything and you just come in and sit there and read the scripts and they're not really gonna that's happening. I didn't I didn't predict that.

Jeff Dwoskin 28:14

Yeah, I remember when David de Cali is he? He was like Shonda Rhimes. Now, like back then, like every show was a David Kelly show. He had

Phoef Sutton 28:22

a whole studio in Manhattan Beach. That was basically the David Kelly show. And the other was Boston, common Boston and Eagle. I don't know some wedding meal. I don't remember Oh, it was some wedding show. He did. I don't know either. Other shows here. He had a whole factory running. He's still going strong. He must have about about the longest career of anybody in the business that's ever I don't know, he's, he's really, he's really great. He was a sweet guy. I was on the show for three years. And I met him I was in a room with him like three times, we'd send him to tapes. And he watched the show in his house in Palo Alto and Palo Alto. And he, you know, send notes and rewrite stuff and do stuff but he was never a when I was when when I was on the show. Anyway, he never went on the set. And he just, I think he likes to think of the show as something that was in his imagination. And he didn't like to deal with the people who the actors and people who are actually, you know, doing the stuff you didn't want to deal with that directly. I assume he can't quite pull that off anymore. He was yeah, he was he was a very interesting guy or interesting guy.

Jeff Dwoskin 29:25

James Spader was a handheld to towel do towel

Phoef Sutton 29:29

well I mean, he just used to we trade off big on James duty for the week we call it because he'd be you'd be on the phone with him for hours talking about every line every comment every thing in the script and even in scenes he wasn't in and everything you know, when he would just go over everything and everything. It was totally worth it. Because you know, when it comes to doing those closing arguments, you know, which are like three pages of dialogue, non stop, he was great. He was wonderful. So it was it was worth it to put up with it.

Jeff Dwoskin 30:01

Did you guys have mugs that said I'm on James duty this week?

Phoef Sutton 30:05

No, but I did have a I did have a Friday off until like, I had a brain aneurysm that year and in I think the second year in the middle of the second year and basically almost died at being and we're trying to figure out what what was wrong with what had happened. And they asked me if I had been exposed to any toxins at work. And I said, just James Spader.

Jeff Dwoskin 30:28

You can always blame the an aneurysm if he got mad, right. So well, he

Phoef Sutton 30:32

I actually haven't ever talked to him about that. I don't know. But he was it was alright, John, John, our cat was great guy. Rene Auberjonois was wonderful. It was a great cast. It was basically you know, the, it was a great for an hour show, because the office was in the building the same building that the sets were in that the studio was, so all you had to do was ride the elevator down and you were in the soundstage. And then, you know, the all the offices were in there, they did almost nothing on location because Manhattan Beach doesn't double very well for Boston, that, you know, they had a courtroom stages and the office stages. It was right there. It was right there. So it was a wonderful experience. This was sort of set out hanging out with the actors and and do that. And then the most our shows, they usually shoot them far away from where the writers are, they usually shoot them in another city in another state in another country. So this was a very unusual and very pleasant kind of like doing a sitcom in that way that you could just go to the set and hang out and talk to the actors.

Jeff Dwoskin 31:31

Let's talk about Thanks. Is this as? This is a short live show, but the premise of it is it's about the Pilgrims first year in America. The pilot. Yeah, hilarious. It was

Phoef Sutton 31:44

hilarious. It was a very funny show. I pitched it when I had a deal. And I never thought they'd do it. I pitched it with my friend Mark Jordan league. And I remember pitching it to CBS and leaving the office and thinking, Well, that was fun, but we'll never do that. And then they called they said they wanted to do it. And they did six episodes, and they didn't know what they had or they couldn't figure out how to give us notes. So we did it just the way we want it to do it. And it had a great cast. Cloris Leachman, Kristen Nelson, Tim Dutton, Jim Rash was in it before he was famous. Catherine Houston was like her first job, who led her on the west wing and Desperate Housewives.

Jeff Dwoskin 32:22

Yeah, sure. Yeah. Jim Rash was amazing. And community. Jim Rash was

Phoef Sutton 32:27

wonderful. Like, I loved him. He was so wonderful. It was just a wild fun show. It was sort of a you know, Glenn Shaddix. And John Flack and all these people in it were great, you know, we were Sabine was one of the guests one time and it was as much a parody of sitcoms as it was of pilgrims. And it was fun. It was very fun. We only did six episodes and the star who was a British actor so if I well that's that's about par for the course for a series. Do six episodes. Now that's that's the way it is. Again, that's the way it is in America. Now. We do six or eight and we're

Jeff Dwoskin 32:59

done. Right tide seasons, right? Yeah, the BBC they do short, they don't they drag it out.

Phoef Sutton 33:05

Yeah. They're, they're like Fawlty Towers. And he talks about that being the, you know, the greatest shows ever. There are, I think 13 episodes of Fawlty Towers altogether, entirely. Right. So I don't know. I did not. I was more surprised that they let us do six than I was surprised that they canceled after six.

Jeff Dwoskin 33:25

That's really fun. I think the original office only had 14 episodes. Yeah, yeah, the British one. Yeah, with Ricky Gervais. But the funny thing is, I'm watching Thanks, which is it's on YouTube. You guys can find it. It's got some really good laughs for a pilot. You guys were nailing the jokes right off the bat. It was really funny. Yeah,

Phoef Sutton 33:42

yeah. Well, I mean, it was a great, great subject matter and it was great. And I loved the scene when Jim comes in and tries to rob the store with a flintlock which

Jeff Dwoskin 33:52

loading the musket was just great. It's funny when you see like Cloris Leachman because she always looked old. She was an eye for another two decades after this. Yeah, was like like 90, but you always looked Oh, like, same with Betty White. And

Phoef Sutton 34:07

she was great to work with God. I loved her. She was a wonderful person.

Jeff Dwoskin 34:11

You know, it's funny. I was interviewing Timmy John Provos Timmy from Lassie, and I didn't know this and didn't know this until I was interviewing him but close. Leachman was the original mom before Yeah. Oh short period of time but yeah. Oh, wow.

Phoef Sutton 34:26

You see her in I think one of their first movies was Kiss Me deadly. And you know, she's gorgeous in that movie. You know, she's she had a legendary career. So many great things. So when and so great. A comedy and drama.

Jeff Dwoskin 34:40

Yeah, you know, now she was she was Linda Carter's Wonder Woman's mom in the pilot of Wonder Woman was she Wow. Yeah, crazy. Oh, let's talk about your podcast.

Phoef Sutton 34:52

Yeah, I do a podcast with Mark Jordan League and who I created thanks with I do a podcast about films called it's called for I'm streaks forever. And it's a podcast where we talk about old movies and new movies to analyze different genres per episode. Wonderful. We do about we do about one a month in the US we're working and that we don't do them. But

Jeff Dwoskin 35:13

that's awesome. Yeah. As listening to some of your episodes, you guys are really good together. And you guys go deep. I was impressed.

Phoef Sutton 35:20

We go deeper theory. Which one did you listen to? Do you remember?

Jeff Dwoskin 35:24

Yeah, attack all monsters? Attack all monsters? Okay,

Phoef Sutton 35:27

great.

Jeff Dwoskin 35:28

I mean, I'm gonna start listing all of them. But like, because it's like, exactly what I thought and some of these movies I've never heard of. I mean, you go. You go really deep into some? Well,

Phoef Sutton 35:37

we've seen a lot of movies over the years. We did there was one podcast we did early on about ventriloquist dummy movies that I really, really love that that was that was you have to go deep into that.

Jeff Dwoskin 35:49

Yeah. Well, I love that you. you research the movies and kind of dive deep into the genre. And it's if you're a movie lover, Oh, yeah. Sometimes we think it's like, cool to learn about movies that you don't even know like,

Phoef Sutton 36:01

yeah, yeah, no, no, it's it's great. I mean, and I'm amazed that I've been watching movies since I was a kid. Every chance I got I used to go to the rap houses in Washington, DC. And then you know, watching TV watching Turner Classic Movies, watching all the stuff that's it's on and available in the video stores. We still have a video store in South Pasadena, we still have a video store, video tech, long live video tech, I'm still amazed that there are movies I can find that I haven't seen. That's such a rich, rich field to go into. And but I also know a lot about television history, because I wrote for television and felt part of it. I should know what came before. I remember Jerry Belson was pitching a joke and cheers. And you know, it didn't go and then in the room and he was pitching, you pitched it again. And they didn't go and he finally said, Come on that killed on taxi. You said, Yeah, well, what's gone before is good, too. I just think, you know, you have to know I mean, that documentary series they did on the sitcom a few years ago. I just hated that so much, because it really acted as if the sitcom started with Seinfeld. I mean, I guess they had the honeymooners. And I love Luciano, but they didn't have Bilko they didn't have there'll be Gillis they didn't have any of the you know, really fundamental shows the whole form is based on

Jeff Dwoskin 37:17

Yeah, I love the I love the whole deep dive when people started talking about Lucille Ball and Desi Lou, and everything they did to revolutionize the industry and like that we wouldn't have Mission Impossible we wouldn't have Star Trek without that. Yeah, there's so much history rooted in Desi Lu and itself. Yeah, crazy. Yeah, all that history is amazing. We could talk about that forever. We can I know. I've kept you for a long time. But we didn't talk about Rob coupling the fighting Fitzgerald make it true with me. I can go on and on Boston Legal terriers. Terry terriers always talks about Boston Legal but like terriers. shores. Yeah. So much. So much violence. Thank you for hanging out with me. I really appreciate it. It's been fun. It's been fun. We could do it again. Absolutely. We could dive into some movies. Yes, definitely. Where do you hang out? I'll put links in the show notes because of a website or Twitter or Instagram that you hang out.

Phoef Sutton 38:12

Beef sutton.net Facebook under Phoef Sutton and also film freaks forever on Twitter as PhoefSutton. Instagram is PhoefSutton. Yeah, I'm on film priest forever on on Facebook to all that you can get in touch. Ask me anything. V. Thank

Jeff Dwoskin 38:27

you so much. It was it was a pleasure hanging out with you. Thank you. Thank you was great. All right. How amazing was Phoef Sutton he has done so much brought us so many classics. Go rewatch cheers right now you owe it to feve. Also check out his podcast head on over to Phoefsutton.net Phoef has written a ton of books we didn't even talk about check those out Phoef is a national treasure. Well, the interview over that can only mean one thing. That's right. The episode is over. I can't believe it either. One more huge thank you to Phoef Sutton. And of course another huge thank you to all of you for coming back week after week. It means the world to me, and I'll see you next time.

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