#280 Jay Towers Celebrates Christopher Reeve’s legacy as Superman

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Jeff Dwoskin 0:28

All right, Sarah, thank you so much for that amazing introduction. You get this show going each and every week, and this week was no exception. Welcome, everybody to Episode 280 of classic conversations. As always, I am your host, Jeff Dwoskin. Great to have you back for what's sure to be an out of this world episode. After this episode, you will believe a podcast can fly. My guest today is Detroit radio and TV legend Jay towers, but also, Jay is co host of the caped wonder Superman podcast. So he is here to talk all things Christopher Reeve Superman we got some great stories coming up in just a few seconds. And in these few seconds what will seem like a flash Britton Spencer was here last week talking all about C W's, the flash and a lot more great stories. Do not miss that amazing episode. Right now. We've got a super episode in front of you. A Superman episode, I met Jay towers at the Motor City Comicon at the Christopher Reeve legacy reunion. So he's here and we are talking. Oh, gee, Superman, and that's coming up right now. All right, I'm excited to introduce you to my next guest Fox to Detroit legend and Superman maniac co host of the cape wonder Superman podcast. Welcome to the show. Jay towers.

Jay Towers 2:01

Jeff, what's up? How are you?

Jeff Dwoskin 2:03

Jay? I'm great. I'm great. I'm excited that you agreed to be on my show given I kind of stalked you at the Motor City Comic Con convention. It's been a while now. But we all say we met.

Jay Towers 2:15

Yes, yes. I'm excited. Hey, listen, I you know what, between radio and TV, I always feel like I'm doing the interviewing. So anytime I get to get it's nice to be interviewed.

Jeff Dwoskin 2:23

Well, I'm happy then to give you that break. Jay, we met at a Christopher Reeve legacy reunion at the Motor City Comic Con and I want to work up to that in a second. But where did your obsession with Superman kind of start?

Jay Towers 2:37

My parents took me to see Superman The Movie just before my fourth birthday. So would have been you know, like winter 1979. It came out in December 78. So probably they sent my parents saw it on New Year's Eve, I think and when they said okay, this is there's nothing in there. You can't see that. I'd seen the commercial. So I saw it when I was almost four. So it is my earliest childhood memory. And my favorite. So that's what I always describe the first Christopher Reeve Superman film. And after that I was just I mean every shirt, every action, anything I could get my hands on. It's all I ever wanted was that version of Superman.

Jeff Dwoskin 3:14

And you were in Batman v Superman.

Jay Towers 3:17

I was. Yeah, go there's a cool story about that because Zack Snyder was in town and he was scouting locations in Detroit for the for the film. And he happened to be watching Fox Two on some random weekend morning when he was in town long before I think they even announced it was going to be in Detroit. And I happened to be doing a story that day and showed my Superman office on TV and he went to the casting director and said that guy's a fan with him in the movie so I didn't have to audition or anything like that. What and when I met him the you know the first thing he said to you was hey, when you were a kid did you ever do you ever get picked on for being the Superman fan? And I said I said yeah of course I mean it was such a Star Wars time and all and and he said well it will just paid off today. A great is that

Jeff Dwoskin 4:01

that is amazing. And let me share also that you share a credit with my daughter, my youngest daughter, who was also in Batman v Superman. What did she do? She was at you know the Day of the Dead scene where the makeup she was one of the kids in the makeup and and so my wife went down with her you know they were calling it like Lilo in something it was some weird fake name they write and they get down there and and it's super Batman vs Superman and they kind of you know, put her in that makeup. My wife my wife's version of the story is you sitting there because Henry Cavill was there leaning against like his SUV or whatever with an iPhone in full Superman. She still talks about seeing him in the in the Superman garb but she also got to see the Batmobile. She may have said she had a doubt she touched it but she saw it anyway. So my daughter was in that scene and what was cool about it was when the preview came out, she was right there. So we got Yeah, got it. It was on the trailer. Yeah, so I gotta get credit screenshot. I have of my daughter in that. So that was that was fine.

Jay Towers 5:04

We were lucky to have movies being filmed here. And I know they got rid of that film incentives but boy, for a little while, it seemed like we were going to be Midwest Hollywood.

Jeff Dwoskin 5:13

I know we were almost the Avengers and I think Cleveland ended up with that or some. Yeah, we've learned so you know, it's funny because I knew we were going to talk I rewatched Superman and Superman too, because why not? Anytime you need an excuse, my memory going into it was that in my head Superman to was the greatest movie ever. Second, only two are right there with Spider Man two. I thought it from a superhero point of view. I thought those are the greatest superhero movies ever. I know. I love Superman, but I probably hadn't seen it in forever. Anytime I have a rewatch because you know, the extra Kryptonian villains it was always a probably a Superman to viewing. But I rewatched Superman, and I gotta say, I changed my perspective. I realized Superman is the far superior movie. It's a great movie. And I forgot how amazing it really was. And when you sit there and you watch Christopher Reeve, you're like, I get why people go. He's a Superman. He's Superman. You know, he's, it was it was kind of really cool to kind of re experience it. Well, I

Jay Towers 6:21

mean, I agree with the I mean, when I saw Superman to in the movie theaters, it was I know, I saw the first Superman in the theater as very little kid. But, you know, after that, I mean, I had seen it so many times. And when Superman to finally came in theaters, she's I don't remember if it was like seven or eight. But it was I thought again, I mean, that was the action packed. Oh my god. And it was a lot of like, we talked about Wrath of Khan, you know, being the better Star Trek movie, because the first one was kind of slow. But I mean, Superman obviously was superior as a film, but I love Superman too. I mean, that that was, again, action packed and losing powers. And you know, as a kid, we didn't know what was going on between Lester and Donner and all those things that was just the Superman to we knew.

Jeff Dwoskin 7:03

Exactly, exactly, I but it was it was interesting when I started when I rewatched Superman The Movie, and then I rewatched Superman too. And I just started kind of googling stuff. It's almost the drama behind both of those movies is it's amazing how much trivia and drama go behind each of those movies. It's just crazy that we ended up with such amazing, iconic classics in the end.

Jay Towers 7:32

So for people that don't know, and I think everybody knows the story by now but you never know. I mean, you had Richard Donner was filming Superman and Superman too. At the same time. They wanted to get the first one out. They were way over budget and they released it and then shortly after you have like the number one movie in the world, they fire Richard Donner bringing Richard Lester to do too. And a lot of Superman too, that we saw in the theaters was Donner's footage, but Lester shot quite a bit of stuff as well, he had to and then all these years later, we get the Richard Donner cut, which is a great try at trying to reassemble the film he envisioned. You know, always watch Superman two was the one I remember as a kid and I always think of the Donner cut as as as a bonus extra more footage, more of the original vision. I'd never looked at that as the Superman to I see how it could have been. But you know, you remember what you connect with as a kid. And then Ostalgie of the original Superman two will always be, you know, will always be there. Yeah,

Jeff Dwoskin 8:28

I love Superman, too. We were in Niagara Falls. And we look I look around, I go, Oh my god, this is where Superman to was. It just it didn't, you know, didn't click until I was right. That right. And so we get on YouTube. God bless YouTube. And I get on YouTube and I find the scene. And I find pretty much you know, okay, okay. It had to been about there. You know what I mean? Yeah. And yeah. And I'm like, Okay, awesome. Awesome. It was really, really cool. The funny thing I maybe I can blame Superman too for this. But you know, like, the Maid of the Mist is there, right? The Maid of the mess. Correct me if I'm wrong is the American side? I think so. Yeah, I think so. So, but that takes place on the Canadian side the movie.

Jay Towers 9:11

Right? Although that was never really specified in the film. Right. Right. But yeah, it's funny,

Jeff Dwoskin 9:17

but like, the Canadian side is where when you think Niagara Falls, the American side of Niagara Falls is more like a I think a park or something like that. So they show me to the Miss so my whole life made the mess made the mess, right. So funny story, and I blame Superman too. For this. We go to Niagara Falls us and another couple and we're having fun. And of course we're gonna go into the falls and we get made of the mist, but we're on red. But we're on the Canadian side made it the mist is the American side. We had to literally walk. And let me be clear the Canadian version of the Maid of the Mist is literally no different than the American. I think you wear blue versus red poncho or something. It's just a different color. We walked we had to walk across the border. Go to it because that's where we had our tickets. And I was like, yeah. And so I was like, I think that's why I made the mess is stuck in my head because there's no other reason I wouldn't know why I wouldn't know the brand name of the buried in Niagara Falls otherwise, anyway, it was just funny. So it was like we ended up walking 40 minutes to get to it when we were five minutes from the Canadian side, one airway just

Jay Towers 10:20

when I watched them, and non exchangeable tickets, right? And when I

Jeff Dwoskin 10:23

was watching the movie, I was like, this is why this is why it was in my head, because I've watched this movie 1000 times and it was made of the Minister of course. So anyway, so that was that

Jay Towers 10:33

was and that's a great spot to go visit to. I mean, we did that a couple years ago before the 2019 Motor City Comicon Jim Bowers and I who I do the cape wonder podcast with went there. We did all the filming locations, we met Hadley Kay out there, who's the little boy that fell into into the falls and kind of got his recount of what happened and how they filmed it. And yeah, it's cool. It's still listening. It's It's funny, so many people visit that and maybe haven't seen Superman too. But if you're a Superman fan, and you go there, you immediately know the spots and where to go.

Jeff Dwoskin 11:03

Yeah, it was really cool. How did you get involved with Jim Bowers and kind of, you know, and I Heart Radio and putting together the, the cave to wander podcast and kind of synthesizing this passion of Superman.

Jay Towers 11:17

As a Superman fan, I would go to the Cape wonder website. Long before I ever knew Jim and just used to marvel over these photos that, you know, Jim has the largest collection of behind the scene, rare Superman filming photos over anybody. He got them from Pinewood Studios. I think this all kinds didn't pay off their storage locker bill. And he made a deal with somebody and got all of these rare behind the scenes photos that you know, Warner Brothers to this day still comes to him for and says, hey, we'd like to, you know, we'd like this picture. Because you haven't we don't. I got to know him a little bit. And then he was putting together a he wanted to do a Richard Donner reunion of the Superman films. I think that was in 2016. And I reached out to him and said, Hey, can I help I work on TV and Detroit and I might be able to provide television coverage, which could maybe make it a little bigger. And that's how I got to know him. And that WonderCon in Anaheim reunion was, I think the last time we had Margot Kidder and Valerie Prine together, most of the Superman cast was their message from Richard Donner on the screen. And probably one of the only times and we've done a lot of these panels over the years with the cast. I mean, when you're in California, and the panel room, had to have had over 1000 people in it. It was really this really cool electric vibe that you can still see on YouTube. So that's how I got to know him. We became friends. And I think for the 40th anniversary of Superman, we said, hey, let's do a podcast because I work for I Heart Radio, and we're the number one podcasting company in America. And we should do a podcast. And that's how it started. So we I think we did 50 episodes or close to it. It is not easy to do a podcast about you know, for Christopher Reeve films and try to pick them apart and get guests and bring something fresh to them. But but we have, and it's it's fun. We don't do as many as we as we once did, because we just don't want to be two guys reminiscing 40 minutes on a podcast, like we want to try to do a show that brings you something you didn't know. So whether it's somebody that worked on the crew, or a cast member who we've talked to just about all of them. We tried to do that. And sometimes we meet people, you know, we've had guests before that just pop up on Facebook, the derby shires were at Niagara Falls there, I mean, you'll know their kids as soon as you see them. But they were there that day, filming and because the husband was part of his dad worked for parks and recs, and they got into this little scene in the movie. And they had all these wild behind the scenes photos that they weren't allowed to take. Their cameras weren't supposed to have film in it. And this guy just took a ton of pictures. So you see Christopher Reeve on wires, you see all this behind the scenes stuff. So that was a great interview. So we always find people like that to interview.

Jeff Dwoskin 14:03

That's awesome. I can see where you know, you create something and it's okay, that something can have a beginning and an end. Yeah, just you know, sure. Well, one of the things where we met at the Christopher Reeve legacy reunion at the Motor City Comicon. That's a great way to extend it. And honestly, I think that's one of that's where I found out about the podcast and started to kind of kind of diving into it. I was like, Oh, this is really cool. Do you want to talk a little bit about, you know, just that really cool charity event? And sure, pulling all these classic people together,

Jay Towers 14:35

you know, the Christopher and Dana Reeve Foundation, which does all this great research and awareness for free, you know, for anybody that has had a spinal cord injury, they over the years started moving away from the Superman part of it, not because they don't because the organization didn't want to but it's really a licensing thing. You know, you put a Superman s on anything, and there's a royalty or there's some kind of licensing so as the audience was in there There are kids that are in college to play football and are paralyzed and can't walk. And their hero may not be Christopher Reeve and Superman. I mean, they they're, you know, they're 18 years old, they it could be someone else. So as that nonprofit has evolved, I had approached them and said, we want to do a Superman reunion, but we want to do it, kind of as a thank you to Christopher Reeve. And we want to donate a portion of whatever we can get. And I've done interviews with them before and they were very nice. And they're like, You know what, for this? Yes, we'll do it. we'll partner with you. I will partner with a Superman event. And then DC came in and did the Superman 78 comic variant cover for Motor City, which is you know, Christopher Reeve holding up the cab in front of the Fox Theater, which is unbelievable. All the extra pages inside. They allowed us to be Cape wonder podcast pages, so any guests that we had, you know, their quotes and things that they've said on the podcast and the Dave Santia illustration, that comic book is really, really special. So to have that and to help out the reef Foundation, just about everybody we could get was on board came to town and did it. So it was really it was a great event. The panel was great. And people loved seeing all of those stars in one spot, remembering Christopher Reeve,

Jeff Dwoskin 16:11

it was great. And I got a press pass thanks to this podcast. So but yeah, it was cool. I mean, Sarah Douglas was there Jack O'Halloran. Aaron Smolinski Mark mccluer Mark pillow nuclear man from Superman for and Mariel Hemingway from Superman for and then Bobby Vendetti and Wilfred Torres.

Jay Towers 16:31

Alfredo with Fredo Torres, who's the artist for that Superman 78. Yeah,

Jeff Dwoskin 16:35

all right. Got that. Right. Okay, you can read my writing. But, but that was awesome. For me is like this, you know, just kind of Superman geek, comic geek in general, to be able to spend like five minutes with each of these folks. Yeah, like I even brought like a camera crew and camera crew, one guy with a camera. But still. So it was it was really cool. Gave me a reason to watch Superman for again. And I didn't realize until rewatching that Gene Hackman, his voice was nucleolar man.

Jay Towers 17:06

That's right. Yeah. And Mark pillows. Great. Listen, I have made a great friendship with Mark pillow. And I represent mark now for his any ComiCon appearance he does I get him booked for those. And I go out there and you know, sit there with him. And I watch fans come up to him. And again, a lot like we were talking about Superman too, and how you thought that was the best superhero film ever. If you were eight years old, or 10 years old, when Superman four came out again, as a 10 year old in 1987. You weren't going to the effects aren't that great? Or this? Isn't that you just it was the Superman you remember nuclear man was the villain you remember. And that's your childhood. So he meets people like that at these shows, who don't have that same kind of Oh Superman for is just a war. I mean, kids, if that was their Superman when they were 10 or whatever. They're thrilled to meet him and have a whole different view of that film. So it's really nice to see him and Mariel Hemingway, I was just with the two of them last weekend. And at Smallville common Kansas and I mean people that was the picture to get was with get a photo with those two.

Jeff Dwoskin 18:08

Yeah, Mariel Hemingway was great to talk to I loved I loved chatting with her and I will say was not a fan of Superman for but in rewatching it I'm like, I was harsh. Sorry to interrupt, but we have to take a quick break. However, the Christopher Reeve legacy event I was talking about, you can hear all those interviews in Episode 137 of classic conversations. I talked to Mario Hemingway, Sarah Douglas, Mark McClure, Jeff East is in that one as well. Mark pillow is not unfortunately, because the actual audio when I recorded it didn't work. He was the first one I anyway, long story. Check that out. Also, thank you for supporting our sponsors. When you support the sponsors. You're supporting us here at Classic conversations. And that's how we keep the lights on. Before he sends you back to the podcast. Let me know what you thought about Superman 123 or four tweet at us comment to us on Instagram, Facebook. All right, and we're back. We're gonna talk about Superman three, and its big impact on pop culture. And we're back. I wasn't a fan of Superman three either back in the day. And those Superman three did allow for one of the greatest plot points in a different movie, office space.

Jay Towers 19:20

Sure. That's right. Was a half a cent right?

Jeff Dwoskin 19:23

Yeah, I remember watching office space. I'm in my bedroom. On TV. It's loud. And the guy goes so we'll take the half fractions of the pennies, and we'll round them off and we'll storm and I go oh my god, that's the bottom of Superman three. Yeah. And then they say that in the movie isn't the guy goes isn't that the plot of Superman three. And my wife pokes her head out she goes You are such a loser did this really

she supports me but you know yeah, of course. Yeah. But But yeah, that that came From that, I don't of course, I was in college at the time too. And I think Superman ones who ran to were at that point so impressionable and strong and I love them so much so for didn't resonate, but in rewatching it it was it was worth the rewatch. It really was. We always

Jay Towers 20:15

describe that film too as it was the last time Christopher Reeve wore the Superman costume. So that in itself, you know, that movie meant something to him. And if you're a fan of him, even, you know, again, he knew the budget got slashed, and he knew it was not going to be what it was. But you know, the guys the guy was a professional and still portrayed those I don't think anybody would say well Clark Kent and Superman in Florida, the portrayal was not so great. I think he was probably his best portrayal. He had the character down pat, it's just you know, it lacked in other places. Right, right.

Jeff Dwoskin 20:45

It was just, I think my original memories of it were, I don't know anyway, but it was a nice rewatch, and Mariela Hemingway was delightful Mark pillow was delightful and i i have not I've yet to rewatch Superman three, perhaps I'll get up the nerve one of these days.

Jay Towers 21:01

Well, again, hey, listen, Superman three, you know, evil Superman fighting Superman, Clark Kent and that junkyard scene. I mean, that's a beloved scene. I mean, you know, again, say what you want about Superman three, but you have some really great scenes and the effects were all again, same crew was the first to film so at least you have a really good flying effects in that film and some and some new things. So yeah, it's fun to look at it a different way it was a little hokey with you know, with Richard Pryor and all but you know, it has its place in history now.

Jeff Dwoskin 21:30

It does. It does. It's interesting like as I was kind of diving into Superman, the movie and just kind of really reacquainting myself with that is you know, nowadays we take it for granted that every movie has this Oscar winner this big star, this that right? And you know, not always the case and Superman The Movie really was first time that here we have all of a sudden, like giants in this movie. Yeah, the first time that like giants were like, Oh, hey, by the way, we're making Superman and we got Marlon Brando and Gene Hackman. Oh, in the guy that wrote The Godfather. Yeah, he wrote, right. And so, in reading, though, I don't know if it's true or not. But you know, but I read it on the internet event, Mario Puzo, who was written by the original story is that Donner didn't use the script.

Jay Towers 22:24

No, as a matter of fact, I was really lucky. Jim and I were both really lucky last year, to get something that fans had been looking for forever. And that was Puzo's original script, first and second draft, which I think we finally launched on Cape wonder, but it is wild to read that it is a much different there, there are elements of Superman and even a couple elements of Superman to that, you know, but it's a very different movie, who's wanted to do a very different type of Superman. We got audio tapes of some of the meetings with with Puzo not arguing with, with us all kinds, but between this all kinds in DC and Puzo puzzles, like, what what is the big deal with Superman, you know, sleeping with Lois Lane, and they had to explain like, just that there are certain things you can do. And that's where the whole story came of losing the powers because now he's, you know, now he's immortal. And there was talk of having a Kryptonian wedding in the Fortress of Solitude. So they wouldn't be sleeping together and, you know, not be married. I mean, the conversations are fascinating. So you can see how it evolved. After those meetings.

Jeff Dwoskin 23:30

There reminds me of Superman to right when he loses his powers. I was, yeah. Anytime you rewind something, you're gonna watch it from the point of view that where you are in life right now. Yeah. And so he's like, Lois, I love you. Right. And there they are. And then he's like, I want to live with this mortal and they're like, well, then you can't have your powers. And I was like, Okay, I was I was thinking of it, but I'm watching it and I'm thinking myself Sure. She had been more like, hey, Clark, you know, let's put in the crystal about second third and fourth dates. Let's write let's not jump the gun. Given up the powers after one little kiss on the cheek, let's just

Jay Towers 24:09

Oh, you're also you know, giving, giving, giving up like, what you're known for and what makes you like unbelievable and just say, Yeah, we lose it all. lose it all. Just to be a regular guy. Yeah, no, it was it was that part was a little odd. But again, it has its place in history. Oh,

Jeff Dwoskin 24:25

no, no, I just was watching it from like, you know, a father's point of view now. Like it it made perfect sense. I didn't question it at all. When I was watching it the first time it was just in his rewatch. I was like, yeah, for all the knowledge in the world. You know, it's like yeah, maybe given a minute. Give it a hot second Clark. You know, there might be other girls down the road. Yeah. Right. Play the field a little now is and then she's like you didn't why? You didn't even ask her. Anyway, I'm so sorry. It just in rewatching it I found that quite humorous. So anyway, so the whole idea then that okay, this is like this huge blockbuster and I mean, they got names on top of names, right? Jackie Cooper Glen Ford. I interviewed Jack O'Halloran. I know you've talked to all these folks. Have you ever talked to Jack O'Halloran and length?

Jay Towers 25:16

So I talked to Jack O'Halloran. Twice a week, every week of my life

Jeff Dwoskin 25:20

do I will get I have never been more fascinated by someone than Jack. Oh, hell yeah. I interviewed him. He was like one of my first interviews like early early on. Yeah, we're talking and his father, right was like, had a Gambino mob and all that kind of stuff. And he's telling stories and

Jay Towers 25:38

make sure you get all that information, right.

Jeff Dwoskin 25:41

Well, he's talking, and he's talking about JFK and the assassination of JFK on my podcast. I'm just like, my jaws like wide open. I'm like, All right. This is incredible. This is

Jay Towers 25:54

just Jack wrote a book about it all called family legacy, which he is working on right now to turn into a film and that will be a fascinating film. Yeah,

Jeff Dwoskin 26:01

I think I have a copy of it. He, yeah, he was just it was on you know, sometimes you interview people and you're like, all of a sudden you're like, Oh, I thought I was just talking to nod from Superman. Right? Like, oh, my God, this guy is fascinating behind Pharisee. And then when I interviewed Jeff East a while ago as well, that whole I never you know, it's funny, you watch a movie, and you don't realize something and then you rewatch it. You know, because when I was talking with Jeff, he's like, and I was prepping for that. It was like, you know, he had the prosthetics and they overdub Christopher Reeves voice. Yeah, I never noticed until until I rewatched it and then I'm like, I don't I not notice this. Oh, obvious that that's Christopher Reeve. And it was just and then they didn't tell him and he was upset about that.

Jay Towers 26:47

He found out at the premiere, right. I think we've all done I think it was the first time you found that was watching the movie.

Jeff Dwoskin 26:52

I don't even think it was invited to the premiere. I think that was part of the like, some of the drama behind it, too. They were trying to like distance themselves. And like they I think if I remember correctly, he was Christopher Reeve wanted to play Clark Kent also. And so there was a little bit of a disconnect there. But it was like, it was funny because like that interview, I wasn't going to era because he had done it on iPhone and like Paris and it was like there was there was too much of some of that interview that was just not usable go out and stuff like that. And so when I did the when I was part of your Christopher Reeve legacy reunion at the more City Comicon and I had all of a sudden, all these five minute interviews with Jack O'Halloran. Again, Sara Douglas, Mark McClure, all that then I was like, oh, you know what, I'm just gonna grab the Jeff east part where we talk about Superman. And I bundled it together. It was perfect. Yeah, that was like the headliner interview for that even though it wasn't there. But it was just it was just all these interesting things about the Superman movies. Like I didn't realize that Brando wasn't in Superman to until it was made clear. And then like, because, you know, you see his hand and you just think oh, that's Brando. No, that was your that was a stunt double. They got a guy whose hand looked just like Brando.

Jay Towers 28:02

Yeah, and all of a sudden now it's all about the mother and her wishes. And again, they just did not want to pay him.

Jeff Dwoskin 28:08

But they would had to pay him a lot. He made a lot of money for like five minutes of work.

Jay Towers 28:13

Yeah, back then.

Jeff Dwoskin 28:15

I mean, to make like, what did he make like a million

Jay Towers 28:17

or two or something like it was? I thought it was a million maybe it was 2 million? I'm not sure. Yeah,

Jeff Dwoskin 28:21

it was just like whatever it was then that would be like, a zillion these days. So it was like and then Superman was like the biggest movie ever at the time. Right? It was just like it crushed. And you get Superman to it was interesting to me that that was was that knew at the time the whole concept of making two movies at the same time.

Jay Towers 28:39

I think this all kinds did it with with the Three Musketeers. I think they did that. Pretty sure that was before Superman. They had done it before, though, and they found it to be cost effective when staying in budget, but you know, Donner really wanted this film to be special. And he continued spending more money because he wanted it to look great. And you can tell that I mean, you can see that movie and sitting and get it. You can be like, Okay, I get it.

Jeff Dwoskin 29:05

Yeah, he definitely had a vision and then there's all kinds like I remember jackal, jackal. How Jack O'Halloran was very upset with an Christopher Reeve for not stepping up and because he felt that he could have maybe helped them convince him to keep donner. But because this was like Christopher Reeves one of his first things if not his first, right so he didn't really have like the power or whatever, sway to like, say, No, you gotta keep donner.

Jay Towers 29:29

And he had Sarah Douglas, who did most of the press for Superman to I mean, they put her on a jet and flew her around to every single country to promote Superman to because she wasn't it's not that she didn't love donner. But she wasn't going to speak poorly of this all kinds. She was doing her job and they just could not. They couldn't trust if Jack would go out there and they knew they knew he would they knew he bashed us all kinds for firing Donner Donna was really beloved by that cast.

Jeff Dwoskin 29:57

Yeah, anyone that you talk to you and I cast if you mentioned They could go on for 20 minutes about how amazing Richard Donner was. And it's like, it's, it's weird to think that they just wouldn't have just kind of gone with that, given that so much of it was like 70% of Superman to was was already created when they, you know, finish Superman right. And so it was interesting to read like that a lot of the bad guy scenes, the Kryptonian scenes and Gene Hackman stuff was filmed and like they wouldn't come back. You know, there's certain people that would not come back.

Jay Towers 30:29

So kindness, Alexander now I'm sorry, Alexander's past. Ilya Saul Khan has said in interviews, more recently that that was a regret. I mean, you think about it, you're known for this legacy. I mean, you brought arguably the biggest superhero film of all time, you know, to the big screen. And you're also known as being this, you know, on a villain among fans for firing the guy that created that first film. So I think, you know, if he could go go back in time and do it again, I don't think he would have done what he did. But you know, at the time, he did, and it was shocking,

Jeff Dwoskin 31:03

right? You never know what thing you might be doing. Is your it's gonna be remembered forever. Yeah, that's why everyone should always do good anyway. But yeah, I mean, Superman to has one of the greatest endings, ever. When he goes back into, you'd gotten beaten up by the guy in the diner. And he goes back and he just spins him around, throw them and I've been working out.

Jay Towers 31:28

It's the it's the ultimate getting revenge on your bully.

Jeff Dwoskin 31:31

I think I say that all the time. And I was interesting to read the like, they wanted famous people originally, not necessarily Christopher Reeve, like they tried to get Robert Redford and like Burt Reynolds. And like all these who everyone turned him down, it was just it was just interesting when you dive into some of the background of this, and then is there any like trivia that you have in the back here? And your backpack at that, like, you think most people don't talk about enough? That is so cool. When it comes to one or two? Superman one or two?

Jay Towers 32:04

Trying to think trivia what boy Jim is a better guy for that. But I'll tell you this, I feel like one of the greatest versions of Superman The Movie is the the television that came out on Blu ray a couple of years ago, ABC when the shoot when these movies came out on television, they were really big events. I mean, you just you I mean, if you wanted to buy Superman, on VHS, it was like $100 or more to buy that. So people weren't buying films like that. But when it first aired on ABC, they made it a two night event. And people watch that movie. And if you went to the theater and saw it five times, and all of a sudden it's on television, it was a much longer version. There were scenes that no one had ever seen before. And longer versions of things. And that really excited fans of like, hey, where did this come from? And the same thing with Superman too. We talked about Superman too earlier. But when Superman two was on television, and I saw that movie and the Concorde scene happen, which is fairly early in the film, where you know, he's off to Paris to go save Lois, and now all of a sudden, he's racing the Concorde. That was not in the version I saw in theater five times. So it's like, what's that, but there was a lot of scenes like that. So fans got what they wanted and got that long three hour version of Superman on and, again, for a true fan that really wants to see the whole vision. It's great to see that long three hour cut, you just see things you never saw before. And fans want the Lester cut the long Lester cut of Superman too, as well, that has scenes that weren't in the Donner cut. So extended versions are what excite people, we've heard that there's a version of Superman four, that's very long, very tough to find. But we know Warner has it. And same thing with Superman three, I mean, Superman three, when it was on ABC TV, did not have an opening scene where, you know, they're walking through the streets of of Metropolis, and all these goofy things are happening. It started with the space and the credits, just like the first and second film. So getting those versions in really good quality would be great. That would

Jeff Dwoskin 34:00

be great. It's always interesting when you see like different versions and different scenes and things that are cut and things that would unnecessarily I know we're not like Superman, we talked about Batman vs. Superman earlier. And I didn't enjoy that in the theater. And then I saw the extended cut that had more scenes in it. And it made much more sense the movie without a doubt. So much better version of the movie and you know, so I think sometimes when you take or give, you have to you know, hopefully it actually helps. And then sometimes it's nice like with the Superman movies where it was like some bonus scenes and I was getting confused like when when he saves the world by spinning around at the end of Superman one and you forget how deep how not how do you forget how like, how grounded I mean always dies pretty hard. Sure. Like, not like, you know like it's a horrible death. I mean, it's like, Well, wasn't that supposed to be the concept of time travel and reversing times would be for Superman to

Jay Towers 34:59

ya know the end Think of Superman The Movie was the ending of Superman to I mean, that's how it was supposed to be. He was supposed to throw that rocket into space and then that was gonna release the villains and then you know you'd have it but turning back the earth was shot for Superman too. And they thought it looked spectacular. And they wanted to again, put that film out and get going with it. So they made at the end, they tried in the Donner cut to do that again. And you got to see some scenes you didn't say he got to see Perry White, you know, with a tube of toothpaste that he's putting on in the bathroom, and then it goes back into the tube. So you got to see more of what would happen if you turn the rock backwards with some of the characters that you know. But yeah, it was it was a great scene and again, as a kid, when you saw that you were like, how cool is this? You fly fly around the earth a couple of times backwards and you can reverse time. Right? Not exactly Interstellar, but still

Jeff Dwoskin 35:48

no, no, but again, watching rewatching it as a parent, and I'm like, literally bark. That's the one thing they told you not to do.

Jay Towers 35:57

Right? It's forbidden interfere with human history. It's

Jeff Dwoskin 36:00

very clear. I mean, as a baby they told you one thing Hey, just don't do this thing. You got all this stuff. Just don't do this one. Alright, so Superman wants Superman to Cape wonder.

Jay Towers 36:12

Hey, what do you think? Superman legacy? Next year, right or 2008 2025? It'll be out they're gonna film it next year. James Gunn

Jeff Dwoskin 36:20

James. I love James Gunn. I think James Gunn. Everything he touches is great. I love the Guardians movies are like my favorite movies ever. Suicide Squad. Amazing. Or the second one he did was amazing. Peacemaker. Amazing, right? Yeah. So I'm really excited. I think if I was Marvel, I'd be like, I cannot believe we love James Gunn go run DC. When we had him, you know, I

Jay Towers 36:43

thought and I was wrong. But I thought that this flash movie, and even before I saw it, I thought you know what splash movie is going to be a problem for DC. Because it's going to do great. And you're going to have Ben Affleck in it. And you're going to have you know, people wishing Henry was in it, and all these things are going to happen. And they're going to be in a jam, because they're going to say, just assembling this universe in this universe did really good. And I was wrong. I mean, wasn't I wouldn't call that movie a failure. But then I read today that it is their biggest failure. It just did not make the money they thought it was going to make I thought the movie was fine. I enjoyed it. I really did enjoy it. I mean, from start to finish, that movie was entertaining and had action. And I got to Keaton as Batman, whoever thought we'd ever see that again. I just talked to Kevin Smith last week, did an interview with him. And he said the same thing. I mean, that was his Batman 1989 Batman was his Batman. So to get that opportunity was worth it. But I mean that most people were here and that's the highlight is Michael Keaton.

Jeff Dwoskin 37:39

You know, it's interesting, like that movie. And I feel about Indiana Jones five but like everyone going this is a great you know, Steven Spielberg. I loved it. It was so good. I was like, no, no, wasn't it? Yeah. It's it's like the other movies without the joy. Right?

Jay Towers 37:55

Okay, well, that's good.

Jeff Dwoskin 37:57

Well, you know, I'll say if you I was watching it the whole time going, this could have been great. Like if Spielberg had done it and just missed out, you know, like, when you watch writers, like every like scene when they're running through, like, the corridors and all that and everything's like clever, I guess clevers? Yeah. Where there's like just a layer of cleverness on everything happening. There's no layer of cleverness. And I think you need a layer of cleverness for it to be Indiana Jones. Like that's what makes it so fun. And it just felt long and it didn't feel fun. That was it's always nice to see him forward. But that's how I feel about that.

Jay Towers 38:30

Well, sometimes that some you know, but it's really interesting what you say because sometimes you roll the dice on the nostalgia again. Well, it's Harrison Ford you know it's Indiana Jones is what we grew up with it doesn't matter what he does your review has been thinking maybe I'll we see it on demand. I would

Jeff Dwoskin 38:44

wait to see and on demand. I think it's one of those somebody I dealt with someone this earlier. I was like, maybe if you see it at home as it you know, coming off Crystal Skull, you got to put it you got to put all the chips on the table. You know, I mean, I did not like crystal skull. And one, two and three. Love three is one of my favorites. You know, and the Last Crusade with Indiana Jones. It's like, you watch it and I'm like, all the pieces are there. The pieces are there. It just feels Spielberg needed to do this. No offense to the guy who did it. But but not for this. Not for that I

Jay Towers 39:14

hear the John Williams music was good, though.

Jeff Dwoskin 39:16

Right? Of course, but there's only so much nostalgia can take you long and boring does and is like wow, I you know what I'm saying? It's just anyway, that's that. So

Jay Towers 39:27

I like the honesty. You know, sometimes we feel obligated to love things because again, they're the characters that we loved as kids, like you said doesn't make it great.

Jeff Dwoskin 39:35

I wanted to love it. I really Yeah, I got it. I did. And so, you know, Flash was a little problematic with as rust off, you know, just because of the you know, they're they don't they're not treating everyone the same, you know, like Jonathan major and stuff like that. It's like, you know, it's like either either you like say this can't be or it can be It can't depend on how much money you've spent, and all that kind of stuff. That was you know, but Keaton is my Batman too. I love Michael Keaton. He's the greatest so

Jay Towers 40:03

and I think those scenes were great. Those scenes were so good. I don't know anyone

Jeff Dwoskin 40:07

who didn't like the Flash movie it just didn't blow up. And that kind of thing and so and people either loved it I've seen plenty people love the new Indiana Jones and plenty people not love it. And so my wife like that she's like, don't be mad. I liked it

Jay Towers 40:22

was the last one was crystal skull was it was that the last one? That was a that was like 15 years ago. And that was 100. That was $100 million opening weekend and this one was 60.

Jeff Dwoskin 40:31

They said this movie is going to hurt them more than the flash hurt. Wb Wow. But you never know. You never know. They tried. So it was nice. Well, you can do. All right. Well, Jay, thank you very much. Hey, man with me.

Jay Towers 40:46

Listen, just two guys talking about superhero movies. Nothing wrong with that. Nothing wrong

Jeff Dwoskin 40:50

with that at all. Thank you, my friend.

Jay Towers 40:54

Good seeing you. All right. How

Jeff Dwoskin 40:55

amazing was that conversation with Jay towers. So fun reminiscing all the oh gee Superman, Christopher Reeve movies 123 and four definitely tweeted us comment at us on the socials. I want to hear your feelings about any or all of the movies. If you're looking for the classic conversations three pack Jack O'Halloran, Episode 51 and the Christopher Reeve legacy reunion at the Motor City Comic Con. All those interviews are in Episode 137. Check out Jay towers, caped wonder Superman podcast part of I Heart. If you're Christopher Reeve fan, you're gonna love that podcast, so much goodness. Well, with the interview over it can only be one thing I know it's over episode 280 has flown by special thanks to my guest Jay towers, and a huge thank you once again to all of you for coming back week after week. It means the world to me, and I'll see you next time.

CTS Announcer 41:56

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