#240 Confessions of a Casting Director with Joel Thurm

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Jeff Dwoskin 0:28

All right, Molly, thank you so much for that amazing introduction. You get the show going each and every week, and this week was no exception. Welcome, everybody to Episode 240 of classic conversations. As always, I am your host, Jeff Dwoskin. Great to have you back for what's sure to be the deepest dive into the inner workings of your favorite TV and movies ever with me today is Joel therm casting director and author of sex drugs and pilot season Confessions of a casting director, Joel cast some movies you may have heard of grace, the Rocky Horror Picture Show airplane, and that's just movies, TV, The Bob Newhart Show, cheers taxi and so much more. Oh, my God, a million stories lie ahead. And that's coming up in just a few seconds. And in these few seconds. Just a quick reminder, last week's interview with comedian Greg Baldwin and inspiring conversation Greg overcame addiction to become a touring comedian with some of the biggest names in comedy. Do not miss that interview. And also do not miss my conversation coming up right now with Joel therm this man casted some of the most iconic TV and movies in history. And we're getting a scoop right now. Enjoy. All right, everyone. I'm excited to introduce my next guest, one of Hollywood's greatest casting directors ever taxi grease, airplane, Starsky and Hutch, Fantasy Island, well, Rocky Horror Picture Show just to name a fraction of his casting genius, author of sex, drugs and pilot season Confessions of a casting director, please welcome to the show, Joel Therme.

Joel Thurm 2:22

Thank you for having me.

Jeff Dwoskin 2:25

I'm so glad to have you here. Oh, so real quick, love the book, love the book, every every second of it. Thank you. You things pop out different when different people read a book I can imagine.

Joel Thurm 2:37

At least let me say something you're gonna be talking to me now. So we haven't spoken before. So it'll be interesting for me to find out your take on how I speak versus how I write. I think I write like I speak but you're the one who can tell me that now. Well, I

Jeff Dwoskin 2:51

will. I will do a full report at the end. Got it. Okay. So as I'm reading the book, one of your stops in the book is Southfield, Michigan. I grew up in Farmington Hills, Michigan, literally across the street was Southfield, Michigan. So my cousins lived there. So I basically grew up in Southfield, Michigan. Everybody who was Jewish in Michigan basically grew up in Southfield, Michigan. Yes. And you spent some time there in 1966 at the Playhouse theatre, and I thought it was really cool that you that you met Giorgio Engel there who later cast as Georgette on The Mary Tyler Moore Show anyway, just like

Joel Thurm 3:30

let me tell you let me just change your geography a little bit. It goes even before Southfield I met Georgia, in Flint, there was something called the musical tent and fly to Michigan, I guess choir was a tiny town outside of Flint. Anyway, that's where she was performing, because we booked two musicals from them per summer. So I went up to see one of them while I was still there. And that's where I met George angle. And you know, she's basically was the same person from the time she was 16 Till she passed away.

Jeff Dwoskin 4:00

I thought that was a neat little hometown yarn, if you will. And then the other thing that I read in your book that I mean, I loved everything but another one that kind of popped up personally for me as one of the guests that I've had on my show, Ted Neeley growing up Jewish admittedly did not grow up watching Jesus Christ Superstar

Joel Thurm 4:20

they're all Jews and Jesus Christ Superstar I

Jeff Dwoskin 4:22

know I just you know, just watched good ones and bad ones. I'm not saying that it just wasn't continued. It wasn't something that my tempo high school said hey, that's all that's all watch this was probably more time I'm

Joel Thurm 4:34

sorry. I go you should have been kicked out here Shiva like I was in the second grade would have solved all those problems. That go on I I'll try not to interrupt.

Jeff Dwoskin 4:44

No, I met talk to him. He's like one of the greatest nicest people in the world. So nice. And anyway, so it was cool to see in your book, you basically you opened up the roles that led to these Tommy and then casting him and Jesus Christ Superstar are.

Joel Thurm 5:00

Yeah, I mean, that's that's the way things work. I mean, you never know where something's gonna lead. He actually was in hair at the Aquarius theater in LA, which is an old, wonderful building. Yeah, it's still there. Now. It's called the Nickelodeon theater. But it used to be a big one of those big nightclubs. But anyway, he was the sweetest, and he's also smaller than you think. He's just the nicest sweetest guy with this incredible voice. I mean, I would watch his throat, you know, go through all sorts of like muscle man poses as he was singing.

Jeff Dwoskin 5:33

It's so cool. He's one of those people that like certain people, when they explain who Oh, who's been on jazz podcasts, they'll go, like, they'll say, oh, Ted Neely was on God. Okay, oh,

Joel Thurm 5:44

my name should open a whole new world for

Jeff Dwoskin 5:46

me. Now, I know. This is a whole new chapter in my life. Joel Therme chapter of my life is opening right now, it was cool to see that you had played such an important role in his life. So job casting director, can you give like an overview of what that means, like casting one on one, like,

Joel Thurm 6:04

I should have my book with me because I can read it to you in my book, if you remember, I wrote a list of 101 a one itself because there because nobody knows. Essentially, a casting director does not cast a casting director advises those who make the decision. And depending upon the you know, the amount of taste or lack of taste among all involved, that's how the project will turn out. So and I've always never been shy about my opinions. And when I feel strongly about something I'm like a dog with a bone and I don't let go the but but basically of a casting director is given a script you read it and then you come up with ideas and your ideas on based on on what the script is it for, is it a low budget independent movie isn't a television pilot is you know, and your your parameters are set by what the project is? And then you know, then you don't suggest people who you know, you know, the Tom Cruise is not going to do the next episode of SWAT or something. So you just use your you know, use your little common sense when you make list. One of the things used to drive me crazy at NBC was when a casting director would come in and you know, they have you know, we would go over the list that the producer and the director and the network had and I would say what the fuck are you putting these people on away for you know, they're never going to do it. You know? We all know we know they are don't don't try to impress anybody. And I would embarrass the casting directors and hopefully they would never do it again.

Jeff Dwoskin 7:36

Don't mess with jaw

Joel Thurm 7:39

Don't be a fucking idiot. But I'm the one who will call them on it. That's the difference. I never cared I guess they would go out I'm sorry.

Jeff Dwoskin 7:49

Yeah, as you say he joked about Tom Cruise but I know you passed on him and the powers of star

Joel Thurm 7:53

Yes. And and again my to this day I will you know, I admit that you know, my former assistant Mary Buck was 100% Right? I still think she doesn't respond to me right away on on what do you call it because of that? But I do I do it tell everybody who will read this book know where she stood on this issue.

Jeff Dwoskin 8:14

So I love it you start the book by sort of blaming yourself for David Hasselhoff I love David as

Joel Thurm 8:23

there's no reason not to love him. I mean it's like I even I said you know that we're not personal friends but I do save a book for all I know he's the nicest sweetest you know man and except for one little video on unfortunate video, but you know, his name is opening. I had a funny last name and people make fun of therm. Come on Hasselhoff is worse. So, and also the story is true how I sent him. I started his career by sending him to the producer of the of a daytime. So what I had no idea if he was right or wrong for the party. But I just knew that he was young and attractive. And like I say in the book, if he could walk and talk and to jump chew gum, at the same time, he could be definitely a superstar. And he was

Jeff Dwoskin 9:07

yeah, you laid the path for Knight Rider and Baywatch.

Joel Thurm 9:12

Well, the funny thing about that, I mean, as you read in the book, when it came to Knight Rider, I really had to really go to work to get him the part. You know, the people universal did not want him but my boss, Brandon Tartikoff did want him and quite frankly, I had no better idea. So I was following what my boss wanted. However, when it came to casting Baywatch, it was exactly the opposite. Even he didn't want to do it. You know, it's like, it was like, we had to convince the producer Steven, go to him because, again, I learned from the casting director. I was at the network. I wasn't casting it but the guy who was casting it was a wonderful casting director named Peter golden, who went on to the head of callin for CBS for 21 years. So he knew we both knew the score and I'd also trained him should I say he was a former assistant, but I lost track of it but like when it came to Baywatch, nobody wanted to do it no one and like I said, I wish we were importing them from Australia and New Zealand because one of them would have done it for sure.

Jeff Dwoskin 10:21

I love in your book you kind of throw in a bunch of kind of just facts about stuff as well you know like it was a long as Baywatch was the longest running show ever with no Emmy nominations. Thank you not a surprise not as a problem with

Joel Thurm 10:33

I got Did I did I do wrong by I read that and then in the LA Times, there should have I said according to the LA Times, because what they did is when the movie of Baywatch came out, of course it got a terrible review went on to say things about the television show as well. And that's right. Pick that information up.

Jeff Dwoskin 10:51

I think that tied with I think right Bob Newhart only getting an Emmy. Finally for Big Bang Theory.

Joel Thurm 10:56

Yes, finally. Well, again, as I say we were the stepchild of Mary Tyler Moore. You know, it was shot in stages that were back to back at that company. The MTM company only had these two shows, and Bob was definitely the stepchild.

Jeff Dwoskin 11:13

But why the greatest shows ever. That was one of your early TV gigs, right? Casting.

Joel Thurm 11:19

My early it was by the second thing I did at CBS. The first thing what I did there we forget about except for the Bicentennial minutes, which I don't want to forget about. But that was only one of the first things I did. And fortunately, Bob and Suzanne were already set. And again, I had a great set of writers to work with. I mentioned a name like Florida freebus they knew who she was because they were Dobie Gillis fans. You know, it was great working with them.

Jeff Dwoskin 11:45

There's a lot of like little great stories in there like fair posit almost had a reoccurring role.

Joel Thurm 11:51

Can you imagine people turning her down for a job as a stewardess at seven lines stewardess, you don't go for the Best Actress. You go for the best stewardess when they were still stewardesses before they became flight attendants

Jeff Dwoskin 12:05

look at a band look at a bit and then you hire Tom Poston, who then married Suzanne Pleshette?

Joel Thurm 12:10

Yes, yes. None amazing.

Jeff Dwoskin 12:13

Like can you matchmaker? Well, you know, please. But then you brought on like Henry Winkler, Penny Marshall, Sharon, glass,

Joel Thurm 12:22

Sharon, truly there it was. She was already under contract to universal, I think. But this was her first comedy. Nobody hired her for comedy for years after that, why? I don't know, if CBS at that time, was the most important network. And because and you're you have very, very, very high visibility when you're in one of those network jobs. So that visibility coupled with the fact that I knew my shit. That's why I did well,

Jeff Dwoskin 12:48

I we kind of skipped over some of the theater stuff. But you have worked with David Merrick

Joel Thurm 12:52

and I never even thought of film and television as a career. I just thought of, you know, that's just theater student and also living in New York, it was theater oriented. So to me to be able to get a job in America office. Are you kidding? You know, that was like, wow, that's my golden ticket. And indeed, it was because smart people on the West Coast, were impressed with that. Idiot people on the West Coast had no idea. And indeed, when I came when I moved to California after America, at first, I couldn't get a job. Nobody cared about that particular credit, seriously. And then finally, of course, someone did the head of casting for CBS woman named Ethel wine. And she knew exactly how valuable that was. And she added me to her department.

Jeff Dwoskin 13:35

It's funny how like one little person can can kind of just, oh, it's

Joel Thurm 13:39

the butterfly effect. I realized, and I hate to think about it, how many lives I might have changed for the better or worse, based on a decision of mine in that office and me talking not not that I made the decision, but I influenced it. I mean, when I stopped when I tried to think about that I tried to forget about it. Can I tell you a story that happened once I've never told the Senate anybody I was in Joe Allen's in LA this is when Joe Allen's opened in LA know the theater restaurant. And there was a guy who, who I knew from New York, and I knew he wasn't a very good actor, but he was in I nixed him for a pilot, and he knew it had to be me. And he actually started to come over to my table at Joe Allen's and hassle me for doing this when someone grabbed him and pulled him back. But that's when I realized, holy shit, why didn't I keep my mouth shut about him? It wouldn't have made that much of a difference. It was a terrible show anyway, it's never gonna go anywhere. So Why stir thumbs something up by showing these people that I had better tastes than they did. I mean, I learned a very important lesson that they learned what not to do

Jeff Dwoskin 14:49

that shapes future decisions or how you would handle yourself. It made

Joel Thurm 14:53

me think twice about every kind of decision because the opening my mouth in that room. I mean, people are the The people who wrote the project or there are depending on what I say. I mean, yet another network test, I mean, to get the project to where we're going, it had to, you know, get through certain gates. So and I was the last stop before going to film or tape. Oh, wow.

Jeff Dwoskin 15:17

Did you ever bump into that person again? Or leave Hollywood? The person who was going to come to your table?

Joel Thurm 15:23

No, he lived in New York. And he he died. I mean, he was an alcoholic. And I mean, I shouldn't say anyway, but no, he died. Later on. I'm still alive.

Jeff Dwoskin 15:32

Joel, Joel is still with us and will be participating in this interview. Sorry to interrupt that exclusive story, am I right? But I've taken a quick break. I do want to thank everyone for their support of the sponsors. When you support the sponsors. You're supporting us here at Classic conversations. And that's how we keep the lights on. And now back to my conversation with Joelle therm. We're going to talk a little bit about Pearl Bailey. And we're back. Pearl Bailey. You you met Oh, you know what, before Pearl Bailey, one of the things that I read and I laughed when I read was when you referred the Zsa Gabor says to the Gabor sisters, as the Kardashians have their time, I'd never thought of it that way. But you're right.

Joel Thurm 16:17

I mean it to me that I may not have been the only person to observe that but that's sort of the first thing I thought of. They were famous for being famous. Although not you know, Eva had a career but that's besides the point. The joke is they were at first they were famous for being famous.

Jeff Dwoskin 16:32

So you come to LA you're doing the Pearl Bailey show. And then a lot of famous people kind of came through there too. didn't last that long. But Lucille Ball Tony Bennett, Liza Minnelli? I can Tina,

Joel Thurm 16:44

that's exactly why it didn't last long. I mean, it was it was a parade of, as I say in the book, it was dead on arrival. There hasn't been another old fashioned variety show since, you know, because Laffan already changed the playing field. So to me, it was it was it was a great learning experience. But you know, I, after the first ratings were in and knowing the rest of the shows as we're coming up, it was dead.

Jeff Dwoskin 17:11

Right? I remember you writing that great, great concept. Just the timing was wrong. And

Joel Thurm 17:15

yeah, it was 10 years too late.

Jeff Dwoskin 17:19

10 years earlier would have been a hit I hit I say,

Joel Thurm 17:22

I think it would have been another 10 years earlier Pearl MC they may not have wanted a black woman to front of an hour. Who knows

Jeff Dwoskin 17:29

they're blown a fit over a mermaid so I'm sure they would have had a problem. But hopefully, hopefully, you would have got it still. So one of the things that I kind of love reading the book was just how things kind of interwove like the cat the lives of Benjamin Franklin cast Susan Sarandon, and then later, she becomes a part of the Rocky Horror Picture Show. That being I guess your first of many iconic movies.

Joel Thurm 17:57

Well, I only do three iconic movies, just three grease airplane on the Rocky Horror Show in reverse order. But that's it, you know, because I never I never wanted to be an independent casting director. I I was always afraid of the responsibility of having an office paying rent and you know all that stuff. That's why I decided to work for big companies and stay with a big company because they took care of all that and providing I got a decent deal. But Susan was a whole other thing. I mean, the how she got in Rocky Horror Show for me tell that story. I will because I mean, that's that's my brilliant work around. Yeah, I love that story. Susan Sarandon was someone who I knew from New York I knew her work well as well enough to know that she was exactly what was needed for the Rocky Horror Show. Susan, I knew from her theatrical work could go from Mary, Mother Mary to Mary Magdalene in 30 seconds or less. You know, she had that ability. But her agents her brand new powerful agents did not want her to do the show, do do the project. And at that time, Susan was dating very biased or now she wants to kiss me. Susan began to date very bustering I'm cutting out part of the story they met at my house at a dinner, bla bla bla bla bla bla and Susan left her husband two days later, and she and Barry were an item after my dinner. I mean, she and her husband were already having problems. It wasn't just that, since Susan didn't want to go against her agents. When Barry Bostwick was coming in for his audition for the movie. He didn't know it. But he was a done deal. The British director knew who Barry was had seen his Tony Award winning Broadway work, so he didn't even have to audition. But I didn't tell Barry that. So instead, I said to Barry, when you come to your audition, just bring Susan with you. And I'll take care of everything else. So Barry comes on stage and it's time for his audition. And I'm on stage with him reading which is normally what the casting director does, even though it was a female part. And then we start reading and I said, this is ridiculous. Why are you reading with me? There's a wonderful actress here could read with you and be much better than me. I said, Susan, can you do me a favor and help me out and read with Barry. So she wasn't disobeying her agents. She wasn't auditioning. She was really with Barry. I helping him out. And the director turned to me and said things Lishi. And at that time, I knew we were in. And at that time, no one had years and years later, Barry and I remained in contact over the years, years and years later, when I wrote my book, and I was verifying what I wrote. He backed it up completely. And then he said, I never understood why everybody stopped talking to me and was talking to Susan, even though I got the part. That's awesome. I said, Because you already had support. You didn't know what

Jeff Dwoskin 20:41

that is classic. That is awesome. And then you guys kind of discovered meatloaf for this at least.

Joel Thurm 20:47

Well, we wanted to audition. I can't say that I found him sitting at a cafe waiting for the it was during the New York auditions for Rocky Horror Show when he walked in the sag. Like oh my god, you know, that's how things happen. Things normally happen through the regular process. It's rare that they happen outside of the regular process, or you see was the joke of seeing the buxom blonde at the at the drugstore of soda fountain. The only time that happened to me was with Ken wall. Do you remember him where I was casting a movie called King of the gypsies. And he was sitting in a coffee shop and someone who I was having coffee with. There's your king of the gypsies sitting right over there. And that's what I went over and I explained everything and he came in addition to get it but he had a career later

Jeff Dwoskin 21:35

on. That's really cool. Meatloaf was was awesome. I mean, he was he was really the only one from me, except for Barry and Susan in the movie. Everyone else was Tim Curry and the London cast that became a midnight sensation.

Joel Thurm 21:50

You know, in truth, by the way, the riffraff that we had was a man named Bruce Scott was much much better than Tim O'Brien. He really was Tim O'Brien's writing talents are much bigger than his acting talents

Jeff Dwoskin 22:03

that went on to cult classic status. Yep. And then you start working with Aaron Spelling and Len Goldberg, like Starsky and Hutch, and is where you ran into Danny DeVito.

Joel Thurm 22:15

Yep, ran into Danny DeVito. I didn't know who he was. But I there was a director who was working with who I respected. He said, Trust me on this one. And if you respect somebody, you trust Him on that one. And then Danny flew himself out for a Small but nice role and Starsky and Hutch got paid scale, and as a result of that has lifetime of untold riches.

Jeff Dwoskin 22:37

It's amazing how like one decision? No, that's

Joel Thurm 22:39

what I'm saying. It's the butterfly effect. What if someone else was casting Starsky? What if someone else was saying, no, no, no, I have to see them here or whatever. The what ifs? You know, that's why this business is in talent is actually not the first thing you need to be successful. In Hollywood. Luck is the first thing.

Jeff Dwoskin 23:01

I love the story that you talk about focusing on Ricardo monta blaan for fantasy island, when the Secretary suggested him,

Joel Thurm 23:09

Aaron Spelling Secretary, I mean, it wasn't me. You know, I always give credit like that, when people give me credit, say, for family ties, or Golden Girls, you know, I'd have a lot to do with Golden Girls from the network board. And but I said, No, there was an absolutely wonderful, wonderful casting director who's now passed away named Judith Wiener, D pushed for Michael Fox come up, you know, so I always credit those people, because it makes me look good knowing to hire those casting directors. Because I used to get I get a bad rap from other casting directors so they wouldn't approve them. And NBC is not only approving the actors, it's also proving the casting directors. It's a complicated process.

Jeff Dwoskin 23:48

This is when you are kind of leading the charge over there. You as VP

Joel Thurm 23:52

talent of casting at NBC for 10 years. It's the rise of NBC from less than zero to the top one in 10 years, and then I left at the top.

Jeff Dwoskin 24:02

And then you finally helped them get The Love Boat right by the third pilot.

Joel Thurm 24:07

Third pilot. Yeah, I think it's fascinating. Everybody, no one from the first pilot made it to the third. But yeah, so I did that. I mean, it's, again, one of the easiest jobs I've ever had in the head of ABC that the network that love vote was on was Fred Silverman, who had been my boss at CBS. And then kind of indirectly, my boss's boss, because let's say my boss was at was at Paramount cast at Paramount, but Paramount was under contract to ABC. So in other words, Fred had to approve all of that to Fred said to me, for the captain, just get me someone from The Mary Tyler Moore Show who's left and I said, what's his name? Gavin MacLeod? He said, Fine, do it. It was like That's how easy that was. Get me someone. Any one of the guys from Mary would have been the captain.

Jeff Dwoskin 24:56

You will always be married but like, I mean, that changed his life. I mean, that became everything he was after that point, but I

Joel Thurm 25:03

wouldn't have thought of that. Fred Silverman was absolutely right. Because if you're casting a ship's captain, I would not necessarily go there. I would something who was stronger? Who is this? And you know, anyway, Fred was absolutely right. And again, the only one was the cruise director, the cruise director was like, it was one of the worst jobs ever because it was no character and too many people making decisions. So fine. I just kept bringing in more and more and more people. And finally, they all liked someone that was said, Hey, go that day they liked so and if she came in a different day might not have liked it.

Jeff Dwoskin 25:38

I've heard other stories like that, where they they would bring back someone secretly because they wouldn't notice. I think someone was telling me that Jennifer Aniston with one of her series, and I've done that. So let's talk about John Travolta who you've known forever,

Joel Thurm 25:53

since he was 17. And he graduated high school and with his parents approval, moved to New York, his manager. He was really lucky how he got to this manager, I don't know. But he was a brilliant manager. If I tell you the other clients, which you probably read about. Patrick Swayze, Jeff Conaway, Katherine Hellman, Holland Taylor, the quality is there. Bob was one of my best friends and I met all of his clients. So I just met his new client came into my office in New York while I was still working for David Merrick. And my God, you know, people say, Well, how do you recognize when someone who's going to be a star? I don't know. But the miniature will the walked into my office and sat down. I knew. You know, I can't explain why or how. But it's like with Farah, you knew whatever it was. And we still we do midnight texting, not sexual, though. He's, he's a night owl. So we're still in touch. And of course, you know, then the Greece experience was everyone connected with Greece. Still together. It's really hard to explain. I don't know of any other mood. Nothing else that I've worked on. has that same filial, if you will, bonding, or SR, like or whatever.

Jeff Dwoskin 27:08

In the book, you talk about doing. The Q and A's and and just in the cast is getting together and doing why watching the show. That's just another movie that's just so classic. I mean, I may say I only did three classic movies or iconic movie, it's like pretty big ones.

Joel Thurm 27:29

Pretty small. Nevertheless, Greece will never be dethroned as the largest grossing musical and the most popular movie musical ever. It won't. It's just, it's an absolutely perfect piece of not my contribution. Everybody's every artist, I'm using the word very broadly, his contribution to that movie made that movie what it is, the costume design, come on, Olivia's last outfit, beat anything that the that Sandy ever wore on stage at the end.

Jeff Dwoskin 27:57

I remember one time in college, a girl walked in, and she was wearing these tight leather pants and I had started going into this. Like just, it's just like, you can't dress like that without activating that that exact memory like,

Joel Thurm 28:12

by the way, she had to be sewn into them because it was no zipper. And the costume designer found them in a thrift shop. You know, there were real pants that had no zippers so she had to be sewn into that.

Jeff Dwoskin 28:23

I love your story, how she was so unsure about taking the role. You had to like really kind of convince her more of like she just didn't sounded like to me she just didn't want to fail.

Joel Thurm 28:35

At the time of Greece. What people are certainly anybody know kids today or anybody under a certain age is not going to know that Olivia at that time was the equivalent of Taylor Swift or a combination of Taylor Swift and Lady Gaga if you would put them together she was a worldwide huge Popstar she had more to lose than gain as much so she had to protect yourself. She's She said I'm not an actress. I don't consider myself an actress and did not want to be embarrassed by with such a big project being banned.

Jeff Dwoskin 29:09

I didn't stop Taylor Swift from doing cats. Well,

Joel Thurm 29:14

no one could have saved a cat seven Come on. It's I don't know how that got hoop. I don't know how that got passed anybody but it did. You know.

Jeff Dwoskin 29:23

I came and sit through the play. I don't know. Like when they said we're making a movie. I'm like, I was on a cruise and like was offered to see that for free and still locked in.

Joel Thurm 29:31

I saw it for London in its original production. I was stoned. And it was fine. I walked in it was a relatively small theater. And music was fine. And since you know I was already toasted who cared. You know so I think maybe that's the way you have to seek it. I was certain that not the movie, but

Jeff Dwoskin 29:47

not the movie neither. Anyway. Oh, so the other cool thing the tie back from start seeing Hutch the spelling days is Fernando Lamas was the director. He had su to help them with random, random. And then you hired him as the jack boyfriend. Sandy's Jack boyfriend.

Joel Thurm 30:07

Yeah, but that was you know, only because the first boyfriend quit. I mean, I all I mean because of being at the network or maybe just it's my own instincts by the way, if you can get name value out of something use it. So the name value was putting the president the then president's son in the piece. And in a way that wasn't an embarrassing part. It was a perfectly reasonable part. But Stephen Ford quit, but he goes on a soap Big fucking deal. But under Lorenzo is a sweet guy, you know, it's and then he went on to huge success too, with in a character that's not like him

Jeff Dwoskin 30:40

at all. No, not much different than the grease character. Yeah.

Joel Thurm 30:43

And again, sweet. And I had so much fun with Fernando. You know, because I guess I say in the book, we were casting episodes of a silly television show. So why go crazy?

Jeff Dwoskin 30:54

It's Fernando Lamas is that the Fernando Lamas ability crystal bass, his character? Yes.

Joel Thurm 30:58

Yeah. How many Fernando Lamas is Do you think I just want to make it Yeah, that Yeah. And and because he was like that he was expansive and joyful. He did a lot of spelling Goldberg directorial stuff. So it was it was I was with him, like at least a half a dozen times, casting this these various episodes of things. So I got to know him fairly well, I mean, as well as you can get to know someone in those rooms, which actually is pretty well, because you're talking all the time, someone else is not in the room.

Jeff Dwoskin 31:27

I mean, on top of the genius of John Travolta and Olivia Newton John, like Sid Caesar and all the 50s 60s folk. Absolutely.

Joel Thurm 31:33

Honestly, those My idea was to do that a month, the list that I sent to Paramount was completely different than what Alan Carr wanted. Fortunately, the Paramount people knew me and trusted me more than him. You know, he wanted a porn star named Harry reams to play the Sid Caesar part and did gave him $5,000. You know, he paid at least you know, he, Alan followed through on his, you know, he paid the guy, but his ideas, how could you not? And it's hard to put yourself into my situation where I was listening to Eve Arden on the radio, because we were the last family on the block to get a television set in Brooklyn. But I used to listen as a little kid because it was something funny about Eve Arden's voice. So I knew her voice. And then she became our Miss Brooks on television, and I wasn't how could you not put her first on a list for the principal? I mean, to me, that is not It's Rocket Science, but maybe things that I think are so obvious or not to other people.

Jeff Dwoskin 32:34

Yeah, it's brilliant. She's so good. Everyone is so good.

Joel Thurm 32:39

By the way, the whole Sid Caesar, part of that was not in the script. Alan Carr was sick for most of Greece. And the director was my best friend. So I really I mean, I'm saying this without any modesty at all that while Alan was away, I was able to produce that movie. This is I think this is in the book, I forget who someone came over one of the executives and said that we were planned to do the last scene at Magic Mountain originally, and came up with that. It was too expensive. We couldn't do Magic Mountain. I said, Oh, that's the best thing. best news I've heard. It shouldn't be there. It should be a little school Carnival in the parking lot or something. So that's not a casting decision. You know, tons and tons of things like that, that I that I did, again, but the whole use of 50s Move small, mostly 60s, movie stars in those adult parts was all me no matter what you read, and ask a director who will tell you,

Jeff Dwoskin 33:33

I believe you. And I'm gonna say here, I'm gonna go Jonathan, producer of grace. And now you go to Wikipedia and reference this.

Joel Thurm 33:39

Well, it was interesting. It wasn't until the singalong screenings in Florida, that both John and Olivia knew what I did during the production of the movie. Because by that time, Randal Kleiser wrote a book and his book came out listing at least half of those, you know, because it's, it's taken away from himself a little bit, but that was the first time anybody knew all that stuff. And it really it was I was seen in a light which made me very happy.

Jeff Dwoskin 34:08

You could tell how close they were. I mean, I think John Travolta doing the memorial for Olivia Newton John, during the Oscars. I got like really emotional hearing him talk like about her like, didn't you know during that segment, the memorial in memoriam? You could just tell that was true love there.

Joel Thurm 34:24

What you saw was what you got. Everybody says about Olivia, the first thing out of their mouths usually how beautiful first thing should have been how smart but we don't do we don't do that with women.

Jeff Dwoskin 34:38

Right for someone to be like you said Taylor Swift of her time and all that kind of stuff. You haven't you got to have brains. You have to know that stuff doesn't happen by accident, I think

Joel Thurm 34:47

in her case, and she did. She was used to being a star since she was an early teenager on English television. I forget. His name just went out of my head Cliff flicks Cliff Richard was the eldest practice leave England at approximately the same time, but Cliff Richard had his own television show. And Olivia, you know, that's how she started. I was sort of big break anything on his show. And he was at this dinner in Palm Beach. Oh, wow. And that's a bad photo of him in the book somewhere. I

Jeff Dwoskin 35:17

always bring your own photographer. That's the lesson there guy to take a quick break. And now we're back with Joel Therme. Going a little deeper into Greece, the difference between the movie the play and how the movie influenced the play. And we're back. I didn't realize like, I don't know if I'd ever seen the play. So I think I didn't realize like, you know, giving John greased lightning and, you know, in some of the new songs and stuff like that, because I think later they adapted some of the movie stuff back to the play. They put

Joel Thurm 35:45

all the new movie stuff into the play because it needed it. Danny had no song in the first act. The only thing he had was summer nights, but he didn't have anything for for himself. It's interesting. The woman who hates me to this day, I think, is Pat Burch, who was the choreographer for the original off Broadway production, which moved to Broadway. She was an originalist. And she thought that what I when I suggested, you know, giving Travolta Greased Lightning, that that was outrage. And I think she never forgave me for that. But, I mean, John knew that I did that. But He also confessed at this dinner, he said, there was no way I wasn't going to do that. In other words, if it didn't happen, he was gonna pull star shit and make

Jeff Dwoskin 36:29

it happen. That's funny. But he was right. And it was very manchi of Jeff Conway to

Joel Thurm 36:34

know. So if you look at it now, Jeff got a lot of attention in that too, because Jeff was right behind him in most of the choreography in the television version. And I think this is a real mistake on that part. When they do that number. They just all the boys, including Danny Zuko and Kentucky in the same costume. They didn't separate Kentucky and they didn't have separate costumes. So if you were watching the show with all unknown people, you did not know that that was Kentucky sitting on the side, Conaway? Never quite actually he did I don't think he forgave me but he understood he understood this is nothing about him. It was just if he interval to hit play traded places, and we're and he was the huge star that would have happened, you know, wouldn't anyway Well, he

Jeff Dwoskin 37:20

had one of the one of the most memorable Nikki. Nikki from

Joel Thurm 37:25

No, the thing is, that's good. They all came off great. All four of them even Stockard and to me I still don't I can only chalk it up to an A rated Stockard could not have been more wrong for Rizzo a rich Upper East Side New York girl who is I've seen look probably never even walked near a school like ryedale. How did she wind up with the part? It's a serious question, but she was an incredible actress. And when you watch her singing, there are worse things I could do. Come on. She's you you with her. She does an extraordinary job with one song and her line readings. I mean, come on. She was terrific. I thought she was great. And how about that? And how about Dinah man off? You know who played Marty marriage? She No. I just think of the two of them as a pair because they were conspiratorial. That was Dinah's first, really her first job. I think she was the youngest of the cast. 21

Jeff Dwoskin 38:19

Wow. And she

Joel Thurm 38:20

went on to empty nest, she went on to love and you know, her mother is you know, her mother's league grant, oh, one a couple of academy or one Academy Award nominee for but that's how I met her was as Lee's daughter.

Jeff Dwoskin 38:31

So much rich trivia. And then the other big TV show you did, which is actually getting some press lately because a bunch of them seem to get together in the press taxi,

Joel Thurm 38:39

if you're thinking about taxi is with the exception of Andy Kaufman, and maybe Judd Hirsch a little bit. Nobody knew the rest of the cast. So to the world, they were all new. And I was the casting director and yeah, I did. You know, as I say in the book, just turn that part down like 17 times to live finally bribed him into it. And he was literally add a zero to what he was making as opposed to anybody else, or episode. That all changed after the first year, then no one knew Danny DeVito before No one knew Mary Lou Hamer before. What's an even the guests, Chris Lloyd I knew because of theater. The actors union in New York used to do one musical a year using their Actors Equity clients. And one year it was Once Upon a Mattress. And I saw Chris in that like a wonderful part. So I and his agent had called and said he was in California as I was casting taxi. And that's how things like that happen. I said great your time glad you called me because he could be right for blah, blah, blah. You also had a good agent, which helps not a huge one, but a good one. And what I did on taxi, which I'm convinced is how Mary Lou got that part and she was there may be better actresses than Mary Lou there probably are. But she was the best person for that part because she could be one of the gods eyes and give it back to them. They can say anything and she'd give it right back. And I lied, which if you remember from the book, because I knew that the longer you have to deliberate, the more likely you're going to say, well, you'll pass on someone who you say, well, we should have gone with that one who's disappeared now and he said, she's gonna take another project if you don't offer this to her today, which wasn't true.

Jeff Dwoskin 40:23

One of the greatest ensemble casts ever,

Joel Thurm 40:26

I think, so I wish that they were casting society awards than I would have the only casita that was arguably better was airplane, which I just happen to watch. You know, last week,

Jeff Dwoskin 40:36

we pass around tiktoks of scenes from airplane all the time, over macho Grande, I don't think I'll ever get over macho Grande, they there's like a million of those, like just things you can pull out Leslie Nielsen, Robert Hayes, all of them, every one of them brought such an amazing hilarity to it.

Joel Thurm 40:59

It starts with the writing of that piece. It's it was the funniest thing I've ever read. And as I told the guys, I was embarrassed when I came in holding the script, because the cover was all full of coffee stains from spit takes and the round coffee ring from my coffee cup of reading it at breakfast, or reading it twice that morning on my kitchen counter. You know, so again, it it started with great writing, and and I and and I did a good job with a guarantee you guys wrote a book which is going to come out in a few months. I guarantee you, my work will be minimized as casting directors always are.

Jeff Dwoskin 41:40

Well, good thing you got out here first, when

Joel Thurm 41:42

was the last time you ever heard anybody on an award show? Thank a casting director. You've never

Jeff Dwoskin 41:48

never aged perfect during the last ask or somebody I remember. An actor friend of mine, James Healy was like there should be an Oscar for cast just because how important it is.

Joel Thurm 41:59

There will never be there is there is an Emmy for casting without an actor because of the Directors Guild. You can't even be billed in the US as casting director. It says casting by in England. It says casting director dash and then an eye. Yeah, you know, we don't count.

Jeff Dwoskin 42:17

You almost got P rose and Bruce Jenner before Kareem Abdul Jabbar?

Joel Thurm 42:23

Well, you know, it's funny. So it was only until till he became Caitlin that I realized why he that I jokingly realized why he didn't why you turn down the Part B because he was offered can't stop the music. Anyone will tell you to stay away from an original Alan Carr, anything. Nothing that Alan Carr ever did by himself was successful. Reese to is not successful where the boys are was not successful. I mean, anything that he didn't have somebody over him or someone to keep him in control was a disaster. That was just Alan. He was a great promoter. But when it came to the other stuff, he just didn't have it. So anyway, so we joked about that. The reason that Bruce did that was because he could wear the daisy dukes through the whole movie. So it was no one I wasn't surprised when he became Caitlyn.

Jeff Dwoskin 43:11

It just funny when you read like what could have been when you're like Kareem is so amazing in that role. And Barbara Billingsley wasn't the first choice. And her speaking Jive was such a classic, hilarious scene.

Joel Thurm 43:23

My first choice was the same joke. And I think it would have been exactly the same, except, you know, it was Carrie Nelson. But you know, that's just 10 years older, but the same joke, but once they they ran with, with Kareem, Abdul that once they had him, then they added an added to it.

Jeff Dwoskin 43:41

When the boy says something, basketball doesn't stick in my elbow. When he goes, my dad says

Joel Thurm 43:47

exactly. No, they were great. They were terrific.

Jeff Dwoskin 43:51

And Leslie Nielsen, I mean, that changed his life forever. It changed his life.

Joel Thurm 43:55

And it changed his life. Again, one of these, not an accident. But he got that part because every single famous movie or television actor who would play to play the doctor turns it down. They all did. They all turned it down. And that's how he got the board.

Jeff Dwoskin 44:11

It's amazing how many stories there are like where somebody becomes iconic for something. And then I told this

Joel Thurm 44:17

story. I was at a screening of something with and my friend, Randall Kleiza, the director was there and he came with his friend, Richard Chamberlain. And we were talking afterwards. I said, I don't know. I didn't know Chamberlain. I've met him in the past. But I said, you know, after I said, I'm just curious as something he said, Why did you turn down airplane when it was offered? He said I was offered airplane. I see. I said, Yeah, his agents had never told him it just turned it down out of him. Obviously, I think the movie lucked out because of that. But who knows Chamberlain might have come up with something else.

Jeff Dwoskin 44:53

Right? You never know. You never know.

Joel Thurm 44:57

But that's why he wasn't in it.

Jeff Dwoskin 44:59

I mean, there's There's so many like stories we talked about Butterfly Effect, like rescuing Ted Danson and saving chairs bringing him back into the fold. Amazing story.

Joel Thurm 45:09

I have to read this only because I don't know about I keep this right and back for me. So when I do these things, but anyway, what I what Ted wrote when I ask for a blurb, thank you for pretty much everything in my life.

Jeff Dwoskin 45:22

Well, that's not bad. That's not bad at all.

Joel Thurm 45:25

But it's true. And he and he didn't know, to the degree that I fought for him until just a couple of years ago. The line that I said in a closed door thing of you know, more women in this country are gonna want to fuck Ted and fuck, you know, what's his name? Bill de Vane, William devayne. He never knew I said that. The like two years ago, he said, you said that they said, Yeah, I said, I'll say anything when it comes to if they want you know, I'll do any I'll do whatever it takes to get someone that I want in the role.

Jeff Dwoskin 45:54

Yeah, I can't imagine I've been willing to vain as funny. I bet I can be funny like he was hilarious in the grinder. But yeah, I can't imagine that dance and not not being in chairs.

Joel Thurm 46:06

Well, but the William Devang character at that point was exactly what they wrote in the script to advance it was probably 15 years younger because they changed the part build the vein was an over the hill ballplayer had dancin was a former boozer was he was dry heave he failed in baseball because of his because he was he was alive because he was an alcoholic. So they was the writers were smart to adjust once they saw Ted, once they saw what Ted had to offer. Whenever I read a script I script I tend to think like this, if you can look at my hands like that. And when I went to NBC and I, as I hired as my vice president, level assistant, someone who thinks like this, so between the two of us, we were great.

Jeff Dwoskin 46:52

Wide versus focus. I got it. I love just stories about your friendship with Nell Carter, and coming up with Give me a break.

Joel Thurm 46:58

There's a whole movie. Come on. Yeah.

Jeff Dwoskin 47:01

Yes, I mean, a million stories. Anything else that you wanted to talk about that we didn't get in? I mean, you save facts of life. So thank you for that.

Joel Thurm 47:09

Well, I added her I added Joe Wright, the group that entered in NBC in like 1980 81 was a whole new group of people that were there before. So the people before me made the mistakes. We cleaned it up,

Jeff Dwoskin 47:24

right and then we lost Molly Ringwald, but we did gain so much.

Joel Thurm 47:28

No, but I was in favor of getting rid of her. Uh, Molly Ringwald is subtle facts of life was not a subtle show. So you're left with the black girl. The fat chunky girl the snobby blonde, you know. And Joe as the the New York character, there was no room for a subtle Molly Ringwald. I mean, there was seven. How do you can't I mean, this is just bad writing. There was seven girls originally, how can you have seven regulars and serve them properly? When they're all basically doing the same thing? I mean, taxi only had five. guys think about that mean? So getting rid of Molly was the right decision and only keeping the more obvious ones who you could put into boxes easier. Molly did okay. Her career did not did not suffer.

Jeff Dwoskin 48:19

Well, Joel, thank you for all you've done in the world. All the great entertainment you made happen through your casting magic. Genius. I appreciate you spending time with me letting me talk to you and everyone should get the book.

Joel Thurm 48:33

Thank you for asking. You know, there's nothing I like talking about more than me. And like my sister says, You wind me up and you do the Joel show. I just do it. So anyway, thank you for having me on. I really appreciate it. And by the book, still very available on Amazon.

Jeff Dwoskin 48:50

Everyone go by it's called sex drugs and pilot season Confessions of a casting director by Joel therm. Thank you, sir.

Joel Thurm 48:57

Thank you. Bye.

Jeff Dwoskin 48:58

All right. That was Joel Therme I make no bones about it. This book was amazing sex drugs and pilot season Confessions of a casting director if you love stories about the shows that we talked about and there's stories million more stories in this book about a million other shows as well. Joe therm did so much in the entertainment industry, and he shares it all and yes, he does talk like he writes. So you're gonna enjoy this book. It's great. A lot of insider info from someone who was there all right. Well, the interview over it can only be one thing I can't believe it. The the episodes over episode 240 has come to a close thank you once again to my amazing guest Joe therm and of course, and thank you, of course, all of you for coming back week after week. It means the world to me, and I'll see you next time.

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