#228 Hello, Lied the Agent: An Insider’s Look into Hollywood with Ian Gurvitz

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Jeff Dwoskin 0:28

All right, Terry, thank you so much for that amazing introduction. And you got this show going each and every week, and this week was no exception. Welcome, everybody to Episode 228 of classic conversations. As always, I am your host, Jeff Dwoskin. Great to have you back for what's sure to be the most classic insider edition of classic conversations to date, are going behind the scenes with Ian Gurvitz. Ian was the showrunner of wings and Becker. And his career is just amazing. And he's sharing a ton of stories with us in just a few seconds. And in these few seconds, I have a story. Well, here's a story a story of episode 226 with Christopher Knight Peter Brady. Don't miss that amazing episode. But right now in author of Hello lied the agent and other bullshit you're here as a Hollywood TV writer is going to share all the ups and downs of navigating Hollywood enjoy. All right, everyone. My next guest, has spent decades in Hollywood is written on Frasier The Wonder Years Tony Danza show, TV writer, executive producer for wings and backer. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the show in Gurvitz. Hey, hey, well, thanks for hanging with me on my podcast. Sure. So you've got a rich Hollywood history. How did you get so obsessed with and I know you a in your, in your book, you talk about an immediate obsession with television at an early age. But how did that lead to actually becoming part of the Hollywood system?

Ian Gurvitz 2:10

It was not a straight line. I had no idea what I was doing in college, I studied philosophy. I went for a master's in religion. I lived out of the country in Japan for a year, came back to New York had no idea what I was going to do just hit the city started looking for jobs. But at the same time, my brother was out here and was making inroads as a manager. So he got some comics and then said, why don't you write for him? So I started writing jokes and made a connection with the show. Variety Show. Why don't you do these things? And they're just Yeah, say yes to everything. Say yes, figured out. So while I was working, you know, normal nine to five jobs and publishing and advertising. I was working nights, weekends banging out anything I could think of. Then he had connections on shows. So I started writing specs, send them out, and I would fly out to LA on little search and destroy missions, which was the way I could do it at the time. Ultimately, it was a folly because you got to be there or here to do this, which is what he said. So eventually wrote a feature that's Option Two the guys who produce drawers, and this thing's Zanuck Brown, which was like, Holy crap. You know, a sale.

Jeff Dwoskin 3:21

That's pretty cool. Yeah, that

Ian Gurvitz 3:23

was pretty cool. So then it came after the summer and did a rewrite found the director started getting the feel for the place, you know, and then basic Hollywood story studio goes into turnaround. So it was you know, sold project was in turnaround goodbye. But in the meantime, I had pitched a rewrite on a movie. And because my brother was hooked up with the the guy who was running the studio at the time, so just wrap it into an overall deal. So they said, Yeah, you're good for a year. And that was it packed up the family and the cat, Beverly Hillbillies were going out. And yeah, that landed in Beverly Hills, and started getting the feel of the place, led right into the first Writers Guild strike, which is hilarious. Great timing. Yes, excellent timing, but luckily only lost a little bit. And then but wrote a spec while I was there, that landed on the top of somebody's desk, and they had gotten the show picked up looking for what was then called the baby writer, and had a meeting went on on a show.

Jeff Dwoskin 4:22

And a spec is when you decide I'm just gonna write an episode of Seinfeld, but they know it asked you to do it. You just

Ian Gurvitz 4:30

know it's something it was a calling card. I mean, there was a time here that there were more Seinfeld specs than there were people in Los Angeles. But that was the show to do. You know, I did one of those that did whatever. I felt like a right just to show that you can hear the voices of a certain show and that you've got some ability that gets you in the room. These days. I don't think writing specs for existing shows is as big as original material. That's prize people want to hear what your voice is.

Jeff Dwoskin 4:58

Now people want an original voice Yeah, they may be getting tired of reboots, remakes.

Ian Gurvitz 5:03

Yeah, I mean, I've been on shows where you staff up and the floor is covered in scripts. And you can't read one more. One more spec. So, yeah, you want to read somebody see what their head is see who they are. Plus TV has gotten so good, that they're looking for original ideas, original voices. Not everything can be IP.

Jeff Dwoskin 5:24

So writing was your inroad, then, yeah,

Ian Gurvitz 5:27

writing gets you in the door, then you start learning. What producing is you learn editing, you learn casting, you learn how to write with the mind toward a budget. I can fantasize anything. But we can't afford to do that. So is there another way around it? You learn how to work in a room, you learn how to take notes, which sucks. I remember the first script I wrote, I got notes. And I said, I felt like I've been vivisected, because I didn't know the experience. So you get notes, you tear it apart, you learn how to do that. You write your in your own head, you like what you've done, feel this is good. Then someone else looks at it and goes, yeah, no, change it. I want to show once did my first draft. And basically, they called me in a room and said, Yeah, run this to the typewriter one more time, which was basically their way of saying do it over. And that's how you learn shows or like grad school in production, said you learn

Jeff Dwoskin 6:19

how did you learn to do the writing? I mean, it was this something you? I mean, you just you have to teach yourself that I mean, because you know, you have to you have to write a script in a certain way. Right? And yeah, you

Ian Gurvitz 6:30

got to follow format. But I learned I got my hands on scripts, read it. So at least I can mimic the format. And then you watch the show you listen, you listen to the rhythms of it, you try to get a good story, something that will intrigue people, and mimicry. You know, if if nobody says you're doing it wrong, then you're doing something, right. If it gets you in some doors, you go alright, I think I can at least do this well enough to keep doing it. And every script you write is a learning experience. Every one comes out perfect. You put it in a drawer, you look at it a month later, it's crap. You fall in love with stuff, you go, this has to get made, this is brilliant. Six months down the road, it runs out of gas, write something else, you fall in love, then you move on. And if it lands, then great. You fall deep in love with that one.

Jeff Dwoskin 7:17

So don't fall in love with love that that's one of the keys of success there. You

Ian Gurvitz 7:21

know, you have to love it while you're doing it. Then when you send it out, you know, you've got to think this is great. This is going to get attention and you never know what's going to come back. Yeah, this is a it's okay, yeah, we've got one like it. The other thing you learn as you go is pitching, if you want to write and if you you know, you can staff on shows, if you're lucky forever. But if you've got things you want to say or write about, you've got to figure out how to do that you have to go in a room and learn how to pitch and not bore the hell out of people and realize that they are they've heard 100 pitches in a day they know exactly what they want. You've got to be confident you've got to sell which is I don't think is necessarily in a it's not part of a writer's head. I don't think you know you got to somehow channel the passion you have to put it on the page, which is fun, it's you're alone, there's no wrong way. It's all you then you gotta go put on your tap shoes and you know, sell it to strangers who may you know, they may love it. They may have 10 like it and development they want may want nothing like it or they may say is brilliant. I've had crappy pitches, I've sold in rooms and great pitches that you go through they passed can't figure out a rhyme or reason to it sometimes

Jeff Dwoskin 8:29

is a lot of times just whatever the atmosphere is at a particular time they were really into body swap movies or they're really answered. Yeah,

Ian Gurvitz 8:37

yeah, I mean, I want you know, friends was a great show. But I think it ruined development for about 15 years because all they did, at least on network TV, was trying to clone six funny Caucasians living together. And they kept trying to clone that show. Some of them got on the air, none of them really worked. Because you were just trying to imitate something. You know. And from a casting point of view, most of those actors were on hundreds of failed pilots. Right people right time. I mean, I think Lisa Cujo had been recently fired from the Fraser pilot at the last second Yeah, she

Jeff Dwoskin 9:12

was supposed to be Ross rise, right?

Ian Gurvitz 9:15

Yeah. Peri Gilpin, Carrie Gilpin, I think they knew from wings because she did an episode of that. So she was a good go to, but you know, that's how capricious this can be.

Jeff Dwoskin 9:25

In your book. Hello lie the agent and other bullshit from a Hollywood TV writer. You talk about the execution you talk about it in terms of a lot of times like people talk about how Oh, they stole this idea this or this idea, but because there can be at some time like when there was like three Robin Hood movies all of a sudden right ever right? I loved how you were talking about how it's the ultimate execution of it. It's not It's never the idea. It's how they actually bring it to life.

Ian Gurvitz 9:52

I mean, I think the example I use were all these body swap movies between the adult and kid you know, I mean, Freaky Friday, I was At 19, again, there were a handful of they keep remaking this premise over and over but big was completely unique. Not exactly the same premise, not exactly the same way in but because Tom Hanks brought so much warmth and pathos to that character. It was an it wasn't a gimmick. It wasn't just, let's switch bodies, and oh my god, I'm in a big, I'm an adult. What am I doing now? That kind of stuff. There was a real heart to it. There was an intelligence to it. So that's execution. You know, like I said, people tried to mimic friends and Seinfeld for years. Couldn't do it.

Jeff Dwoskin 10:33

One of the great lines in the book was when it's done, right, it's signed. Sorry, it just cracks me up when I read when it's done. Right. It's Seinfeld and when it's not, it's the single guy.

Ian Gurvitz 10:43

Yeah, that was they took a shot. But it's not the world. It's not let's just throw a bunch of funny, quirky people. It was you couldn't do Seinfeld? That was Larry David and Jerry Seinfeld. Put them two together and that was a fluke as well. It got picked up for like six shows some someone in I think variety blown their budget, so they could keep making them. It was what the Seinfeld Chronicles,

Jeff Dwoskin 11:06

right? Lane wasn't even in the original ones.

Ian Gurvitz 11:09

Yeah. I mean, in shows very rarely come out fully formed. Cheers, I think was last in the ratings for a good long time.

Jeff Dwoskin 11:16

Yeah, cheers is one of those stories where they always talk about how it almost got canceled. And then yeah, to become one of the most one of the best sitcoms ever.

Ian Gurvitz 11:24

Yeah, that book I wrote when I was working in half hour. And it came out of my frustration because I wanted to me, it's just a play with three walls and four cameras. It doesn't have to be stupid, normally approve that. You revolutionize television, when you consider the world he came out of, and then to pitch and they shot like three pilots of that with different casts and different configurations. You know, the first time I saw that show, it was mind blowing. I couldn't believe this was on television, you know, and I looked at that. And that's what I want to try to do.

Jeff Dwoskin 11:56

Yeah, the Norman Lear shows are incredible Archie, on the family. And everyone always says, Oh, you couldn't make them today. And just because with the dialogue and the diet, the way they approach subjects, it's

Ian Gurvitz 12:09

I've tried. I've you know, I mean, a lot of people have probably gone in and pitched it. I've tried to spec it out. Wanted to because the times are no less volatile fact, you know, you could make the case they're more volatile right now, why not put that up. But what I've heard from a bunch of sources, is that they're just looking for escapism fantasy, which I understand the logic behind it. But why exclusively, that show prove that people will respond to a show that reflects their reality. And obviously cables gone way past that, and streaming as well. But I think network is still in that other world.

Jeff Dwoskin 12:44

Why do you think network dumbs it down so much advertiser base,

Ian Gurvitz 12:47

they don't want to piss off advertisers, they don't want to piss off the general public. They're still slaves to that cable and streaming is subscribers. So the business model is to do something as daring as you possibly can. You know, that's the idea being that's the way you know, have you seen this show? No. Where is it? You know, it's on Hulu. I don't have that yet. I want to see it. I better get it.

Jeff Dwoskin 13:09

Right. There's so much now there's so many different places. It makes it harder to find stuff as well. You can have like this brilliant stuff. Some of us were talking the other day. And I think it was a show called homecoming. I think it's on Apple. Julia Roberts was in it. Like yeah, episodes of it. And like none of us had ever heard of it.

Ian Gurvitz 13:27

Yeah, it doesn't. The business model is not necessarily 100 episodes in syndication, you know, get that big check at the end. Now you're doing 810 a year, and everyone has got to be great to get people to talk about it. Word of mouth, more subscribers. You know, there's some shows I punted down. You know, you hear people talk about it, watch the pilot get roped in watch two seasons got COVID A few months ago or binge watched all of Ozark? So did I. Yeah, really? Oh,

Jeff Dwoskin 13:55

god. Yeah. I mean, now because of COVID. I mean, I didn't have come sorry. I hope you're feeling better. Oh, yeah.

Ian Gurvitz 14:01

It's it's in the past. Get it? Got it over with how to pass that time somehow.

Jeff Dwoskin 14:07

And my wife and I we watched Ozark also. Yeah,

Ian Gurvitz 14:09

yeah. I just went in and would write a little bit hanging out in the backyard binge and episode or to do something else. Go back. You know, it was a way to get through that. Yeah. And days.

Jeff Dwoskin 14:21

I love I loved it. Did you love it? I'd loved it. Yeah, I kept going. It was hard. It was hard to watch. I thought it was in the sense that, you know, it was a very draining show. Yes, but you can't stop watching it. It was so good. It was so good. They were all so good. Everyone on that show. The Act? Yeah. Insane. Sorry to interrupt, have to take a quick break, not a break long enough for you to run off and watch Ozark yourself. But I do want to quickly thank everyone for their support of the sponsors. When you support the sponsors. You're supporting us here at Classic conversations. And that's how we keep the lights on. And now more Hollywood inside scoop with n Gurvitz. All right, so that was cool. I've loved in your book, too. You kind of had this thread of Arrested Development. Speaking of like, a high brow, or at least a high intelligence show versus Yeah. And it's kind of eventual crash but or cancellation rather, what why do you think shows like that struggle so much? Like, is it just because it takes too much effort to watch him? I mean, literally, you have to watch.

Ian Gurvitz 15:23

Yeah, show runners who tried to push boundaries are gonna run up against brick walls. You know, there's the you can't do that until you prove yourself until something is a success. And then suddenly, you're not getting any notes anymore. And the flip side of that is, once you stop getting out, sometimes people can just go so far, because nobody can tell them what to do. You know, I did an indie movie on my own about 15 years ago, coming out because I written a spec pilot, but not a spectator Simon pilot for CBS. I really wanting to do it. La blues now, yeah, that was the movie. But it started as a CBS pilot just about guys. And the way they really talked to each other, put my heart into it. And then it was they passed, and I got pissed off. So I blew it out into a movie. And I set up and do this. So I got some people together and said, Let's try and then build little failsafes along the way, if we can't find the time, we won't do it, I'll pull the plug. If we can't cast it, I'll pull the plug. And then eventually we cast it. So that was a chance. What I learned from that is that the best thing about that experience was that you are your own boss, and nobody can tell you what to do. And the worst thing was that you're your own boss, and nobody can tell you what to do. So I learned both lessons.

Jeff Dwoskin 16:36

That was with David Foley, Dave Foley, Anthony,

Ian Gurvitz 16:39

Michael Hall, George went, put some good people together. It was fun. It was you know, I jumped off a cliff and said, I figured out on the way down, and I did.

Jeff Dwoskin 16:49

That's awesome. How could we have been written and gone done any more movies is that just not the direction you want to go in, or

Ian Gurvitz 16:55

I think you've got to be seized. I've written some specs since then. But you've got to be so seized that you want to spend a year doing this because I have to write this. I mean, I think with spec work, it's not a you know, you can do it from commerce, everybody's buying, you know, look at Stranger Things, I'm gonna write one of those. You can write it from that point of view. But to spend that much time on a project, I think you've got to be in love with what you're writing, to get to the first draft, do it in silence, put it away, don't show it to anybody look at it again. groan about oh, God, this is I thought this was great. It's crap. Or it's flawed. Now I gotta fix this. But then if you get it out, one thing I did recently got it to a producer and fine. We were going to do it. I went through about 10 rounds and notes with them. We love what you've done getting better. Now let's look at this again. It just goes on and on and on. Finally got it to the point where fine, we'll take it out. They tried to package it, then we hit COVID Damco right, you know, languished, died. So that's what I meant you you fallen in love with something and then you just learn Okay, I gotta fall out of love with this right? Something else, which is the best way to fall out of love with it.

Jeff Dwoskin 18:02

So terms of falling in love wings, we relationship with wings, I mean, in terms of you must have loved it that right? You were there a long time.

Ian Gurvitz 18:11

Okay, I did. I had a blast on the show. I went in for the meeting. They were looking for just another voice in the room for like six episodes. And I had seen about half an episode. And I knew that it was Tim Daly and Steven Weber. And they were brothers and there was an airline and I tap danced my way through that interview. something fierce and got the gig and they figured we'll see how it goes in six shows and if not see you later. But I figured it out, figured out how to work in the room did my homework, so I was ready and stayed for six years until the end, which was a lot of fun. We just laughed a lot on that show.

Jeff Dwoskin 18:49

Oh, it's a hilarious show. And the cast was amazing. And that's it. Yeah, Thomas Haden Church only. Yes, and aliens to whatever crystal

Ian Gurvitz 18:59

crystal Lamy aspect all gone on to do real good things. We had fun. You just look at it and go, I am enjoying this show. I like people I work with I like people on stage, the product is fun. We're having a good time will get picked up. Where's the bad, even though at the same time, I was still writing

Jeff Dwoskin 19:16

at night, you wrote you wrote a bunch of episodes of wings, right? Like 615 1516

Ian Gurvitz 19:20

year co wrote some you know, but every one you write eventually goes through the meat grinder. So by the time you get to the table, you may not recognize a word of what you wrote. But it's sort of a relay race where you hand it off to the next person and then the room takes it over. You know, so you watch your favorite. The one thing that's for sure, is that the one joke you are in love with will never make it. You know?

Jeff Dwoskin 19:46

Everyone thinks hilarious, right?

Ian Gurvitz 19:48

Yeah. But you look at it. Like I love that joke. And it's like a child learning to walk you just so it's going to make it to the table. Is it going to make it through the rewrite? Is it going to make it through the weeks rehearsal? Is it going to make get onstage? Will it get a laugh? Is it going to make it through the final cut, the chances of that happening were slim. But then you surrender to the process. Here's the script. Let's go. You learn how to eat it, you learn how to sit through a page, one rewrite of your own stuff, which is a real blast. It's another reason it's another reason to have your own show. For better or worse. It's your call. In your

Jeff Dwoskin 20:21

book, you talk a lot about bringing something from birth through the whole process so and wings you came in to already establish Oh, yes, so So even an established show? I'm assuming that those 1516 episodes you wrote over those six would have been maybe over those

Ian Gurvitz 20:38

six years? Yeah, over those six years, three a year, few years

Jeff Dwoskin 20:41

into that are not used with just anyone as they're writing, if they've been there for years. Also, is it just as an extensive a rewrite? I mean, is it still like, or is it some point you got? Oh, he's writing this one. So this one's probably not gonna get torn apart as much.

Ian Gurvitz 20:57

Most of them 75 80%, you could make a plea? Can I at least hear that joke? Can I see that? Sometimes that you know, you'd get it, I remember, there was a scene I wrote, and it was just like a half a page piece. But it was an emotional scene. And that I remember stayed pretty much the way I had it. Even if it was for six lines, the moment I wanted to show made it made it all the way through. So you take your victories where you can get them, but it's basically It's team work.

Jeff Dwoskin 21:25

So you kind of have to take solace and just feel good about the fact that you may have written a joke. Yeah. And then I read Ian's joke, and I read and this is what it's going to be but you just go well, I he I inspired Jeff to do that. Yeah.

Ian Gurvitz 21:41

And the fact is that a roomful of people, they're going to come up with more than you did alone in a room. Even though you break the story. As a group, you note the outline as a group, you note the script as a group, then you go off and you write another draft. So you're alone, you bring it back and go, here's the sacrificial lamb Go ahead. Joke was fine. Get out your coat hangers.

Jeff Dwoskin 21:59

What year did you join? What's 92 Was that season was Tony.

Ian Gurvitz 22:05

Yeah, Tony was there from the beginning.

Jeff Dwoskin 22:07

I thought Tony joined like season three. I

Ian Gurvitz 22:09

thought I thought he was there from trying to remember.

Jeff Dwoskin 22:11

I thought he I thought he was introduced season three. Oh, maybe? Yes. They introduced his character. Yeah, you're right. And then Thomas Haden Church left for his own show, I think yes. Stacy. Yeah. So so maybe that's about a one night. So now, Thomas would have left. Right.

Ian Gurvitz 22:27

I was there. I was there. That's right. So

Jeff Dwoskin 22:30

that was something that you had to kind of deal with a major character leave? Yeah, filling that gap. Yeah, we

Ian Gurvitz 22:38

hired another actor, I think his name was by and how he was good. But we would try and you couldn't duplicate what Tommy did. I mean, playing the dumb character in a show is tough, but he brought a believability to it. So it's tough to replicate. And you can always go in another direction. But you sort of need the show. Organically had that feel to it. You needed that character to perform that function. So it's always tough.

Jeff Dwoskin 23:02

Cheers did a good job. I think when Coach passed away.

Ian Gurvitz 23:04

Yes, they did an excellent job. They went a completely different way, though. Right with Woody.

Jeff Dwoskin 23:09

Do you have any, any cool stories from the set of wings before we move on? And you like, my share?

Ian Gurvitz 23:15

Oh, God, there was so many I can't share.

Jeff Dwoskin 23:17

can't share. Yeah, I loved wings. And I hadn't seen it. And so long I rewatched pilot, which I know you weren't there yet. But yeah, I gotta say it was one of the best first episodes of the show. I mean, I was watching it. It was like, I was laughing. I mean, sometimes it's like you've watched you know, they it takes a little bit. It's there. But the full rhythm it takes a little bit but like they, yeah, not to use the term took off.

Ian Gurvitz 23:40

Most pilots, if you work on it from the beginning, you think we've got this in the pilot and you look back two years later and go What the hell are we thinking? Oh, my God, that was so amateurish, but if you can capture those characters, have it work. Is it funny? Is it smart? Then you get picked up? So you're given the chance to develop it?

Jeff Dwoskin 23:59

Right, actually, right wings was created by three of the folks from chairs who then created Frasier, right?

Ian Gurvitz 24:06

Yes, Casey. Anjali. And then they left to do Fraser at one point and handed it off to other people. They went on to do other things, handed it off to three, you know, three of us and we were in it, I guess for a few years

Jeff Dwoskin 24:20

till the end. So executive producers that like showrunner, same thing, same thing, okay.

Ian Gurvitz 24:25

Yes. You know, if you the one person at the end the wings, it was three of us and we sort of have different responsibilities. But yeah, it's whoever has the final say. Usually the creator of the show or someone who inherited

Jeff Dwoskin 24:38

the other show that I'm assuming you've loved because you were there for a while. A long while backer

Ian Gurvitz 24:43

Yeah. that I had a lot of fun on and that was Dave Hackl, who I met on wings went off to do another show, lasted a short time and then sent me the pilot for that and said what do you think and I loved it, because it's the main character was such a amusing out asshole. But being a doctor, it took the curse off it. I thought it was a great take on things. So I went to that from before the pilot. We did a test read because they got Ted at least interested. But he wasn't sure because it was such a departure from Sam. And then he did I think he did a show with his wife called Inc that didn't fly. So he wasn't sure which way to go. So they did a test read with these other actors. And he sort of tried to pass it on for size. And it worked enough for him to commit, then they cast it for real. So yeah, I was there from before the beginning.

Jeff Dwoskin 25:34

Is that a more enriching experience when you're there from birth? Yeah.

Ian Gurvitz 25:37

Because you feel part of something. The world is open to you. Where do we want to take this character? What could happen? What's interesting? What's an interesting art? You know, there was a little bit of a romantic thing. Right with Terrell will the yeah with Terry Little Willie one day. So that was working. But we didn't want to make that the focus of the show. Yeah, we did shows that hit on religion, death. I mean, we for what network TV was at the time, I think it was not necessarily dark, but interesting, more adult. So that's what I liked about that show at the time.

Jeff Dwoskin 26:12

How was Ted Danson to work with

Ian Gurvitz 26:13

the best just fence? Fantastic. So funny. Professional took could was just like a spiritual leader on stage. If a joke didn't work, it was he would try it and try it. And His thing was, I can't I'm not sure if I'm doing this right. As opposed to, you know, what you can hear is Yeah, I hate this show. I hate this line. Why are we doing this just would make everything work. So he was just a joy.

Jeff Dwoskin 26:39

It's as you know, everyone, always everyone always talks about like Betty White having like, 10 series or nines here. Yes. And I can share in glass as like, you know, eight or nine or then. But Ted Danson has had almost a almost a dozen penguins. Yeah, good place. It's like cheers. You ain't helped me help. Help me help you help me. Bored to Death to CSI? Is Fargo a good place? Curb Your Enthusiasm if you want to kind of he's been in enough of those. Yeah, account. Mr. Mayer and Becker. Yeah. If I'm not missing any but yeah,

Ian Gurvitz 27:10

he's just good. Solid. pleasure to work with. So

Jeff Dwoskin 27:16

yeah. And then oh, then he had a whole run on the Orville as well. Now. Yeah, it was like a guest. But like he was on six of the characters.

Ian Gurvitz 27:23

Yeah, he can pretty much do anything that was so it was a blast to write for him. Because you knew you had somebody who could deliver. And you could go quiet, you could go for smarter moments, which I liked that thought to show, you know, there was room to do that. Let's just go for a moment where it's quiet. It's serious. You know, I directed the second the last episode of the show, which was a 911 episode. I don't think anybody else on network TV was doing anything on that subject. But we just went at it. After years of just doing editing and watching the quad on stage, I asked if I can get a shot to direct the joke. You know, everybody wants to do it. But I figured why not speak up now, you'll never get a chance. So I just same thing, jumped off the cliff and figured it out on the way down after watching people do it well for 10 years. And so I got through it with a lot of help a lot of backup. But yeah, it was fun. But it was we got to do some quiet moments as well. So and particularly since David Angel, one of the friend of ours, one of the CO creators of wings in Frasier was on that first plane that had a little extra something to it.

Jeff Dwoskin 28:37

Right had an extra extra meaning. Right? Yeah. Sorry about that. After backer was it the axes that you went to?

Ian Gurvitz 28:44

Yeah, same thing or worked on the pilot, consulted a few days, you know, before working on the script was a guy knew from wings, Mark Riesman and came up with this show. And you know, you just go in and you do a few days, punch up whatever you can do. And then it got picked up. You know, that was fun in its own way. Good actors. Simple situation. You know, it was sort of back to doing wings in some respect.

Jeff Dwoskin 29:09

Yeah, it was like a collection of like Greatest Hits actors from a bunch of different shows.

Ian Gurvitz 29:13

Yeah, that's what a lot. I mean, you know, that's what friends was at the time. Right, right. Yeah, it was. It was more of a garage sale of people who would come off of busted pilots.

Jeff Dwoskin 29:23

Right, right. Well, this head way night from sir. Yeah, no face to face on Kristen Johnson. Yeah, Kristen is hilarious. Yeah, she's learned from Third Rock. And then yeah, too funny, Mom since awesome. So you know, it was interesting. In your book, one of the things that I read it, one of the lines that stuck out to me TV is based on the presumption of failure.

Ian Gurvitz 29:45

Yeah, I mean, if you looked at it as the if you look at development, as you know, r&d 99.9% of the pilots, they order don't make it most of the shows that get picked up don't make it past year one or year two, you know, I I mean, this was at the time this was network TV with that business model. So most of the expertise that people had would go into making something that would not succeed. And it always struck me. And I think I put this in the book. If your r&d department has such a crappy track record, why don't you just hand out pilots to 10 writers who you think have a vision of voice, do it and tell them do what you want? Deliver me the script, deliver me the show, however much control you you would be willing to relinquish? The results couldn't possibly be worse, then all that brainpower and expertise, collaborating to make a failure? So

Jeff Dwoskin 30:41

yeah, the numbers you were running, running down, it was like 500 a year picked up at script. And then that gets whittled down to 170. And then 35, this series, and then maybe to go to the distance, maybe Yeah,

Ian Gurvitz 30:55

yeah. And then they start all over again. So you know, like I said, if you looked at it, just from this is r&d in a factory or a lab with that kind of failure rate? Wouldn't you at least take a shot at trying to another business model, instead of noting people to death? And trying to bend it into a cookie cutter type show? Give people their heads? What do you see what you come up with?

Jeff Dwoskin 31:17

Are you familiar with at all how they do it now with like, the HBOs? And stuff like that, like, like, every house of dragons that come out? Is it? Is it still? Is it that high? Or do they have a higher success ratio,

Ian Gurvitz 31:30

they can put on whatever they want to put on, they think give shows a chance if you're on a streaming platform. It's not like a network schedule where you've got Thursday night at 839 930. You know, it's not like primetime when we only have a limited amount of slots. So we better be popular, because we need the advertising dollars. You can't sacrifice it's like building, you know, a restaurant in a crappy location for a crappy restaurant in a good location.

Jeff Dwoskin 31:55

Yeah, yeah, you're right, that makes that makes perfect.

Ian Gurvitz 31:57

But we table into, I guess more with streaming, you can just put on as many shows as you want. See what people like. So the business model has changed, which I think from a creative point of view is a good thing. TV has gotten great. Whereas movies have become excuses to sell popcorn. Yeah,

Jeff Dwoskin 32:15

I love where TV is gone. And I gotta say, like, maybe it's just because I'm older now. But I like the idea of going to a movie, you know, when you start to like, run the numbers. Yeah, two hour movie. And like you're gone for like, that means you're gone for like, three, four hours total. It's like, a lot a day. And then it'd be a shitty movie or something like that. It's yeah,

Ian Gurvitz 32:37

I mean, I took my son to see movies, we would go sometimes during COVID, we were the only people in the theaters that only people 300 empty seats and us. And if it was one of his cartoon movies, I bring earbuds and I listened to podcasts, and he gets off on the movie,

Jeff Dwoskin 32:54

what is the best idea that you kind of saw that either didn't get produced or was produced and then just did not make it? Like, there's no rhyme or reason. But this, this would have gone on to be amazing, just in your opinion. I mean,

Ian Gurvitz 33:06

I'm trying to remember that shows because usually, if there's something I like, I mean, it's a cable or

Jeff Dwoskin 33:13

anything. I'm just curious, like, you know, because when you're talking about like the 500 shows that go through the process and meat grinder, there has to be ones that they're like, this is the this is it. Like maybe somebody was like the single guys gonna do it.

Ian Gurvitz 33:27

No, I mean, that one, but what I remember more of the pilots that I saw that you looked at it and go, this is running for 10 years, the things that stick in my mind are more those shows that came out almost fully formed.

Jeff Dwoskin 33:41

Okay, so which ones those Did you see? Anyway, this is it. And now,

Ian Gurvitz 33:45

Malcolm in the Middle. I mean, we used to do this thing in the room, which we call writers Christmas, you get all the pilots that have been shot that year, and you have lunch and you put them in and you trash him. You know, I can't believe this got picked up. I can't believe this one, two, pilot. I can't believe this. And then you'd see one where you go, Oh, crap, this is good. This edit would bring a silence to the room. One of those was Malcolm in the Middle. That was just so perfect.

Jeff Dwoskin 34:10

Sorry to interrupt. Don't run off and watch Malcolm in the Middle just yet. There's more TV suggestions in this episode, then sometimes in a crossing the streams episode, huh? Anyway, we'll be right back. And we're back with Ian Gurvitz. He is about to remember a wing story to share with me.

Ian Gurvitz 34:25

Oh actually reminded me you asked me about a wings story. Right? I remember one. It was a late night rewrite. And we were stuck there. You know, you order pizza and Chinese food and you're rewriting till all hours of the night and one of the big stories we were working on was something to do with Steven Weber's character having a piece of a baby blanket. It was his lucky charm. He couldn't fly without it. And it was so you know, a silly little BS story, but we couldn't figure out whether it was the last beat. So we took a break and somebody brought in a tape of the song Infeld contest episode, which was the masturbation. I'm out, we watched that during dinner. And after it was over, this silence just crept into the room and everybody looked at each other and go, Alright, who wants to get back to that blanket story? Because this was so good. And it was network TV. And at least I did it. I know a lot of other people felt shit. Why can't we do something like this? And the reason is, he just did it. I imagine he had the clout that point to pull off that episode. But that was one story. I remember from the room where you go, you know, I like what we're doing. I'm having fun doing what we're doing. I like getting to work. I love coming in. It's not work to be it's all fun. But damn, that, that watching that, and it's like, took your heart out?

Jeff Dwoskin 35:50

Does it take your heart out for a second, then does it kind of re energize room go? All right, the bar just got raised. Let's go.

Ian Gurvitz 35:57

You know, it gave it was a catalyst to go back to your own work, what you do at night, what you do on the weekends going, okay, there is an avenue, there's a road to do something that you think might be better than this. And to try to take it into a meeting and try to pitch it or just screw it. I'll spec it and see if I can sell it. So yeah, it was soul killing and inspiring at the same time.

Jeff Dwoskin 36:21

Well, I will say if this will make you feel better. And if you ever have a wings reunion, feel free to share. My daughter carries around her blanket from when she was a kid. And yeah, it's very, very important to her. So her reaction would have been like, why is this a b story? This should be the main story. So yeah, that was the story would run with her. And that would have been very, very important. More so than the contest.

Ian Gurvitz 36:46

Yes, obviously. Yeah, I mean, you know, like I said, it was a relatable story. It was touching. It was sweet. And Steven Weber can do most anything and could pull it off. But it was just that moment of who look what they just did. bar just got raised.

Jeff Dwoskin 37:02

You just watched Ozark weed before that we rewatch the Sopranos. Yeah, Tim Daly is running that was yeah, great character. Really good. Really? Yes. The Hollywood writer.

Ian Gurvitz 37:14

Yep. With a problem. Yeah. I've really watched a lot of that. I did not watch the sequel to it.

Jeff Dwoskin 37:20

The prequel movie.

Ian Gurvitz 37:22

Yeah, I could. I just

Jeff Dwoskin 37:24

was okay. Yeah, I tried to watch it before rewatching the sopranos and I had to turn it off. And then we, after we finished sopranos we went back and watch the thing with many saints in Newark, I think it was. Yeah, it was better. But it was like one of those things where I don't love prequels. I don't love I call them like history movie. Like yeah, like his home movies movie. Yeah. Where everything that has to be set up appropriately to to where the story you know, is. That's why he has all the Star Wars prequels. It's like, really Anakin made see three vo all this. Like everything. I didn't have it just go forward.

Ian Gurvitz 38:02

Yeah, I didn't know not enough a big prep that it felt like, you know, your first date after a marriage splits up, you know, or after a great marriage. And this is your first date. And God am I able to do this? So I never watched it.

Jeff Dwoskin 38:15

But you got a couple Ray Liotta performances. And now it might have just been better if he just made a mod movie and just kind of yeah, that is the premise and it just kind of went original with it. But yeah, it's like, okay, Tony. And now he knows Carmela.

Ian Gurvitz 38:29

Yeah, it was it was it was sort of like Muppet Babies a little bit.

Jeff Dwoskin 38:33

Soprano babies. Yes.

Ian Gurvitz 38:35

But I wanted to watch it. But you know, you hear enough things you see enough and I don't have a time. Somehow it's not jumping out.

Jeff Dwoskin 38:42

What are your thoughts on laugh tracks?

Ian Gurvitz 38:44

You know, it's a funny concept. Because for half our shows that are done in front of an audience you know that thing on cheers they always have cheers a shot before a live studio audience that was to tell the audience watching it that these are real laughs It's a real audience. It's genuine laughter. But in editing, there were times where you go this joke, they laughed too much. They were like on helium, they would just giddy so take it down. On the other hand, there's this joke should have gotten the left and didn't they were too stupid. They didn't get it, put it in. So it's mostly to even and out in editing. But the rap that sitcoms got was oh, there's a laugh track meeting. None of it was earned, which was wasn't the case. Although I've been on other shows more recently that are half hour but no audience where they actually hired like 20 or 30 levers to sit behind and almost conduct them like an orchestra. Give this a hot or left give this more partially to give the actors a sense of timing, partially to have laughs to edit. So it didn't all sound like the same sweetened laugh track. So it's sort of a myth and reality at the same time. Got it. What I didn't like about it was that it went along with that concept that sitcoms are stupid, because they have to be what My take was yeah, a lot of sitcoms are stupid, but they don't have to be. This form can be smarter.

Jeff Dwoskin 40:06

Right? There's there's clips you find on YouTube where they took the laugh track out and then it's yeah, it's not. It's funny.

Ian Gurvitz 40:12

Yeah, well, it's, you know, it's like rehearsals for play. There's no audience there.

Jeff Dwoskin 40:15

Okay, so you you mentioned like, when you watch Malcolm in the Middle, you're like, oh, boom, right? Yeah. Can you think of like one of those shows? Where would you guys get to kind of go, Oh, damn, they turned that around, like, this one's gonna bomb. This one ain't gonna make it 10 years. But somehow, they just made whatever adjustment and it kept going. I mean,

Ian Gurvitz 40:32

look, you know, in the beginning, Seinfeld was one of those where it's sort of have the germ of an idea, but it was sort of clunky. So but they found their voice, and they were allowed to find their voice. I can't remember too many pilots where they came out, and it was okay. But then it just took off.

Jeff Dwoskin 40:50

Do you think that's one of the problems these days is Nobody's allowed to find their voice? Like if Seinfeld came out today? Would it have even lasted more than an episode

Ian Gurvitz 40:58

on network? No, but TV is has a clips at that point. It was so unique. When it was up and running. It was self referential. They did episodes about pitching a show about nothing. So we got a little meta, they did the contest episodes. And it's strange because those people were in some respects in different Jerry's reality. Jerry and George and Elaine were in one reality. Kramer was from another planet. And exaggeration, I guess if a guy they knew in New York, Wayne's character, this, you know, almost sinister, mailman, you know, from a slightly different place, exaggerated, but yet, on the whole, it worked. It always felt like it was their POV on the world around them, you know, and it was fun to be I think they shot it at Radford sort of walk New York Street go Oh, yeah, they that's what they did this. And that's what he did that

Jeff Dwoskin 41:47

night. Oh, there's I can't think of a show where it was literally appointment television. One because yeah, taping wasn't probably as easy back then. But also, as everyone literally watched it, and I remember, in college watching it, and my phone would ring once during the episode. I'm like, Yeah, who would do this?

Ian Gurvitz 42:08

Yes. Do not call me between this time in this time.

Jeff Dwoskin 42:12

I didn't. 930 is sacred time. That's like being Yes. It's like, you don't get that as sometimes maybe like the new you know, like Game of Thrones, maybe it was everyone would watch it. Yeah. That's the kind of, oh, in your book, you talk about a show that HBO announced that you would pitch them. But you weren't involved. Which one was that? It was something about a show? I think it was reporters in Baghdad.

Ian Gurvitz 42:34

Yeah, you know, that was weird. I was working with Gary Hart, who was the president of Paramount and and got a deal at the studio. And it started where we had a phone meeting with some actor or comic try to figure out because can we figure out what they want to do? And the call was okay, but I don't think we landed anywhere. But somehow it led to, I don't know why on the walk back to my office. I don't know how but the idea of war reporters in Baghdad, I read an article where they had all hung out at this hotel. And it was intriguing, you know, the sort of mash but with reporters, and somehow I kept researching it. And I got a hold of some guy who had paid his way with donations there. So he was in Baghdad, and I was in my office at Paramount, asking him what the hell goes on? What is it like? What do you do just peppering him and writing, I think I wrote my notes on a lunch menu because I couldn't find any paper. And it was so fascinating that I specked out the pilot for it, showed it to Gary and liked it. So we went I think we went to NBC one afternoon and we left he said, Let's he called right away. Let's go to ABC and pitch this. And they both pass. So I wanted to try Showtime. I thought it was a great idea. It was one of those where you have passion for it and a script to back it up. And I sold by heart out in that room. And it halfway through I can see the assistant was taking notes. And she put down her pencil. And I looked over at that and go alright, I'm dead. I'm dead. And as it turned out, yeah, that was the we've got one like it in development. Or it's too close. Yeah, that's the show I would have loved to have explored a world I knew nothing about. So you tried to research it and get it real, but yet get it funny enough. So you know, I looked at mash and go, this can be done. And I don't think I ever saw anybody produce that show. But if it gets stuck in development, hell, where good ideas go to die. So you fall in love with it, sell your ass off. If it works great. If it doesn't move on,

Jeff Dwoskin 44:35

is there any other ones of yours that you were in love with that you can think of that you just can't believed in? Didn't make it somewhere?

Ian Gurvitz 44:42

One I did recently. I figured I'd try my hand at a murder mystery. You know, and that was a little bit commerce based. You go well, they're selling so let me see if I can figure one out. And that's it's tough because when you're alone trying to write that you go am I faking it? Do I really know this genre, but I found a hook and a way into it and And then really liked it. And like the ideas behind it, I knew where I was going. I knew what it was about in the long run, what the main characters were going through, it felt like it worked. Got it to a producer. So it's like it started to get up on its feet and then couldn't cast it. And I was told Yeah, this is going to be cast contingent. Got so that lasted a while and then it's alright, fly away.

Jeff Dwoskin 45:21

Any advice for anyone out there listening? Going? I got no idea.

Ian Gurvitz 45:27

Learn the world. Look at what gets made. Read about how shows get done. Honestly know if you're good. You hear from people going? I've got an idea for a show. Yeah, it it doesn't mean a damn thing. It's you have to write it, you have to execute it. You know, you either put it on paper or you hook up with a writer to do that. But you know, I've got to everybody in the world says I've got a great idea for a TV show. It's really how you do it. I mean, there's a show on where is it? It's called the bear. Yep. At a restaurant in Chicago. I worked in a restaurant years ago. So I couldn't relate. But I heard about it. watched one episode and Damn, just devoured the rest of them. Thought it was so good. Can't wait to see what they do next.

Jeff Dwoskin 46:09

Yeah, they're great things about that one. Yeah, but yet,

Ian Gurvitz 46:12

I think Kitchen Confidential. Anthony Bourdain, people try to turn that into something didn't fly. So it's who does it and when with what idea was what casting? That's what I mean, everything is execution. I've gotten you know, I worked in a restaurant and boy, it's so wacky, and they're a bunch of characters, and everybody's funny. And so right that, yeah, it doesn't quite go down that way.

Jeff Dwoskin 46:32

Right. You have to create the right set of characters. And yes, that's one of the things I love about the Orville that Yeah, I think Seth MacFarlane, you know, it created like this, all these different characters, and they all work together. And that's, I think, yeah, the things that makes the show so

Ian Gurvitz 46:47

great. And he got to he got to indulge his love of Star Trek. Yes.

Jeff Dwoskin 46:51

And we talked about earlier, we talked a little bit about, you know, certain topics that aren't flying these days. But science fiction is a way to tackle those things. And he actually does that, like every heavy topic you can think of yes, the beauty of has always been of science fiction, right? They can mask things. So when people are watching it, they just think they're watching it about these two companies, aliens. Exactly. You've had an amazing career. And I thank you so much for sharing some of the stories. I'm sure we just scratched the surface, but I appreciate you sharing them with me.

Ian Gurvitz 47:23

Absolutely. And I'm sure when we're done, I'll think of a show that didn't come out for him, but yet found it found its voice. So I'll we'll call you back.

Jeff Dwoskin 47:33

I will look forward to that. You also are an author. And you've written a bunch of books.

Ian Gurvitz 47:38

Yeah. Well, that one about TV, which was like 20 years ago. And then because I'd studied philosophy, religion, I wrote a book called deconstructing God, which was my aborted master's thesis delayed by 30 years, just a subject I had to write about. And then when Sarah Palin hit, I got me thinking about what was going on in the country and ended up writing a book called Welcome to down Pakistan. And that started thinking in 2008, started writing while I was on another show for five years and put it out in 2016. But it was something I noticed in the country, just the dumbing down of it. And turns out, she was just the beta version. So after the 2016 election, I could not believe what it just happened. So I wrote a book called freak out, because I've been writing to this website, about during the election, took a lot of articles and put them together. Basically, it's what the hell just happened. And then a few years into the Trump presidency, had to just write more. So wrote this book called Death to America, basically, that we'd done it, we'd done this to ourselves. I thought I was done writing on this subject. But I've started another book got a few 100 pages in, but this can't escape it. So I've, I've started another one. And I'll put it out. When it's done. When you get seized by something. It's like, it won't shut up, you figure well, then I'm going to try to write this. That's been the passion project for the moment.

Jeff Dwoskin 49:01

I love how you always follow whatever you love. And that's where you kind of dive into.

Ian Gurvitz 49:05

Yeah, I mean, it's usually get the energy to write something when it won't shut up. And it's just keeps talking and begging you. What about this? What about this? What about this, and you go, Okay, I'm gonna start putting this down and see if it works.

Jeff Dwoskin 49:19

And thank you so much. You're my pleasure. I had a really good time talking with you.

Ian Gurvitz 49:24

I mean, to fun to talk about.

Jeff Dwoskin 49:26

All right, that was an Gurvitz. So many great stories. He's done so many cool things. Check out his book, hello, live agent and other bullshit you here as a Hollywood TV writer, and also as a bunch of other political books that might interest you. All the links are in the show notes, so you can check those out. Well, time flies, does it not? Here we are at the end. One more special thank you to my guest, Ian Gurvitz. And of course, a huge thank you to all of you for coming back week after week. It means the world to me, and I'll see you next time.

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