#166 Karen Grassle talks Bright Lights, Prairie Dust, and Little Houses

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Jeff Dwoskin 0:29

All right, Laura, I thank you so much for that amazing introduction. You get the show going each and every day. Yeah. Hi, man. This was no exception. Welcome, everybody to Episode 166 of classic conversations. As always, I am your host, Jeff Dwoskin. Welcome to an amazingly well ASIC conversation we're going back to the 18 hundred's we're going to have a little house on a prairie. That's right Karen Grassle is here my Caroline Ingalls from Little House on the Prairie. We're talking all about her career, little house Love Boat and of course her memoir, right lights prairie dust so much greatness coming up light your candles harvest that we prepare your pies because we're going all in on Little House. My conversation with Karen Grassle is coming up in just a few seconds in these precious seconds. I want to remind everyone to check out episode 164 with another legend Loretta Swit. That's right hot lips from Mash amazing conversation. Also episode 165 was a bonus episode of the podcast celebrating segments from crossing the streams. Check that out. Check us out on YouTube all that goodness. But in the meantime, grab a couple pennies head on over the general store Let's buy a book let's buy a pound of flour I can smell the ice bacon right now can only mean one thing the Caroline Ingalls Karen Grassle interviews coming up right now. Enjoy. All right, everyone. I'm excited to introduce you to my next guest, actress. Author, loved her as mark on one of the most but love TV series of all time, Little House on the Prairie recently turned author with her memoir, bright lights prairie just welcome to the show. Karen Grassle. Thank you, Karen. So awesome to have you on the show.

Karen Grassle 2:33

Thank you. Great to be here. Thanks for asking me.

Jeff Dwoskin 2:36

Oh, I I'm honored. I'm really honored. I I want to talk all about your book. But before we get into your book, I want to talk about one thing that I love that you did that's not in the book. And that was your episode of The Love Boat. Oh, thank

Karen Grassle 2:51

you. I'm glad you saw that.

Jeff Dwoskin 2:54

I saw I just I was Googling and I saw a supercut of where they just put all your stuff together. So you were with Fred Willard and Joe Namath. And that was a hilarious storyline. It was how fun was it to be with Joe name at Red Willard.

Karen Grassle 3:12

It was so so fun. First of all, because I was so happy to get out of my prairie clothes, and into modern clothes, and wear my own hair cut. It just was like so freeing to be there. And then I did a lot of comedy before little house. So it was so fun for me then to be able to do that. And the joy that comes with, you know, acting like you don't know what's happening, but you really do and stuff like that fun.

Jeff Dwoskin 3:48

So you love than just the idea of being able to break away from Little House for a second and kind of be a much different character.

Karen Grassle 3:56

Yeah. And then I was not a huge sports fan. So I didn't appreciate how famous and talented Joe was really. And he was very shy on the set because he wasn't an actor, you know, and he was getting being given this opportunity. But he was very insecure. So I was very thrilled to meet him and flirt around with him, you know? And then I thought the way he did the character turned out so cute, didn't you?

Jeff Dwoskin 4:33

Yeah, it was hilarious. The storyline was Fred and Joe are the last two guys and they had this like money going it's like worth $50,000 and Joe Nameth offers you 10,000 to marry Fred Willard so he can get all the money or the rest of the money. And then you turn it on and you end up marrying Joe Namath scarcer,

Karen Grassle 4:50

and it was like a bet that these guys had from college or something where whoever could hold out the longest staying single would win the pot. And so Joe wanted to win it. And he was trying to get me to marry Fred for that reason, but I was crazy about Joe. And why

Jeff Dwoskin 5:10

wouldn't you be? It was so fun. So you chose the athlete over the funny guy. That hurts me

Karen Grassle 5:17

so much. It wouldn't be that way in real life.

Jeff Dwoskin 5:23

was Fred Willard hilarious on this?

Karen Grassle 5:26

He was delightful. Delightful, just so easy and great to play with.

Jeff Dwoskin 5:33

Oh, that sounds so fun. Alright, so I just wanted to make sure we got I want to

Karen Grassle 5:37

thank you. So I appreciate that. Not that many people know it.

Jeff Dwoskin 5:41

And you were only on the boat one time How come you should have been on like many many times, I don't know their loss to love boats loss but that was by your budget one time on was you crushed it, it was a killer. It was a killer storyline. So fun. Thank you. All right, you have this awesome book. I read it loved it just you learned so much from about people. So bright lights, Prairie dust, you go deep into your background, and then little house and theater was in your blood though theater and I think now to write and but in the beginning, theater was your passion. And this is this is sort of how you eventually got into TV on Little House. I love this story. It was like someone just convinced you to do a reading and then I kind of just started the ball rolling?

Karen Grassle 6:28

Yeah, then I found my home. You know, I found my passion. And once I found it, I couldn't deny it anymore. And I had to set out to find out how do I do this? And how can I get a chance to do it. And I was so lucky because when I was young, there was this fantastic theatre company just across the bay from Berkeley where I was going to college. And so I joined that theater company. And I started learning from the ground up backstage, props, painting sets, cleaning the bathrooms. I mean, I did it all. And by spring, I was getting parts. And it was very encouraging. I was lucky to have people like that to show me high standards. And point the way

Jeff Dwoskin 7:20

when you did the reading, right? It was looking back in anger, right? Yeah, it was sort of bumbling and you write and then someone just kind of convinced you to do the reading that landed you in a part in a play. And then that sort of it just kept going from there. Everything like oh, what what was what would have prevented you from not doing that? You know, I mean, like,

Karen Grassle 7:40

yeah, I was trying not to do it. I was trying to be a very straight arrow student that semester, and not get distracted with play Star writing. And I was trying to get good grades and just see, I wonder if I can do I get really good grades if I apply myself instead of fooling around all the time. And then this friend of mine read that scene to me over the phone. And the next day I was at the auditions and they reached right up to me, they saw me coming. I wound up doing the play with lead Jacob's son. And of course lead J Cole up at that time was a legend and theater. So he sort of had genetic roots in the theater and we could talk theater and oh my goodness, that was so exciting.

Jeff Dwoskin 8:34

That is exciting. First Willy Loman. So that's a pretty big deal. Right? So I so you did that and events, Cobb and then Stacy Keach was a campus star. You talk about that in the book? Yes,

Karen Grassle 8:45

is he had been cast in the leading male part. And he was the one who had encouraged me at the audition. But then the administration at the university decided that people shouldn't be allowed to do more than one leading role or semester. So they made this rule and then Stacy had to step down because he'd already done a lead. And I don't think that rule lasted very long. I think they must have been worried that he wouldn't get his grades or something because he was just on fire. You know, he was just flying through these parts, studying directing, just really, you know, it was so obvious to all of us that this was an actor.

Jeff Dwoskin 9:32

That kind of venture leads you to Pasadena Playhouse, right? And then you decide you're quitting school and you're gone full time.

Karen Grassle 9:39

That's when I went to that Theater in San Francisco.

Jeff Dwoskin 9:43

Like how hard of a decision was that? You were your parents that were they like Oh, get an education.

Karen Grassle 9:48

Absolutely. That's all they wanted for me and my sister, get an education be able to earn a decent living have a secure life. They were older parents, they had lived through the Depression and they did not want insecurity for us. And the day that my mother realized I really was going to quit school and they couldn't talk me out of it. She went to bed crying, anything but politics or the theater. She was so disappointed. But then, of course, it all worked out. You know, I realized after a year in the theater that I needed a complete college education. And I wound up getting a Fulbright to study in London, and they began to feel like, Oh, well, maybe this is going to work out all right, for her, then.

Jeff Dwoskin 10:40

Karen's got it. Karen's gonna do it. Did you model a lot? You mentioned you, you knew you could just model for money. So was that like?

Karen Grassle 10:51

Well, no, I didn't model a lot. I took this class, because my dad had said, when you finish Berklee, you have got to be able to earn a living. But I did not want to take classes that simply prepared me for a job. I wanted to take classes that fascinated me. So I said, All right, I'll take my savings and take this modeling class. And then I can get some jobs doing that. So I can continue to do the things that interest me. But as it turned out, one side started the apprenticeship with the theater, there was no time for modeling jobs, I belonged to them. So I had to ask my parents for more help. And they were very generous to give me that help, which in those days, you know, I mean, everything was reasonable and, and inexpensive. And for $100 a month, I could live and be an apprentice and be fine. Now, I think it's so hard for young artists, because everything's so high. And I guess a lot of them are living in their parents basements being creative,

Jeff Dwoskin 12:05

no shame and living in the basement as long as you have to I did it until

Karen Grassle 12:11

Absolutely, you do what you have to when you have a dream and you have an ambition and you want to fulfill it.

Jeff Dwoskin 12:19

Absolutely. Hey, sorry to interrupt this amazing conversation coming to you from my basement, I do want to thank all of you for your support of the sponsors. When you support the sponsors. You're supporting us here classic conversations. And that's how we keep the lights on. And we're back to our amazing conversation with Karen Grassle. I'm about to ask her some important questions about the Beatles. And we're back. In your book, you talk about listening to Sergeant Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band when it first came out. I'm a huge Beatles fan. And I just it just fascinated me on a different level to talk to someone to actually listen to it at that moment. And what did the Beatles mean to you at that point? And like what was the impact of this album? I was just

Karen Grassle 13:02

Well, we were a bunch of struggling artists in New York City. We were sitting in my friend's loft apartment that they had built out of warehouse really. And she was an actress like me, and I aspired later to be a director, which she was her husband was composer, very experimental, very modern, very cutting edge. And he is the one who brought the album back to the apartment. And we all sat on the floor and listened. And we listened like you could hear a pin drop. We knew this was something extraordinary. We knew it was historic. And I think a lot of times you go through an experience in life, and later you go, Oh, that was really something. But we could feel it. That creation just came out and just grabbed us. Oh, thank you. Yeah, it was great. All right. All right, back

Jeff Dwoskin 14:07

to the story. So you, you land a gig on the guiding light. This is your first acting job. And then it was an interesting story. Because then you you gave that up where you left to do theater again. But there was some regret in there because there was a lot of money. You left on the table. Like what was what was going on with you had a reoccurring role in the guiding light. And then

Karen Grassle 14:31

yeah, and then I left it for this show that we thought was going to Broadway, but it closed out of town. It didn't even make it all the way through its summer tour. And so there I was, you know, unemployed and couldn't help but look at what I would have made if I hadn't taken that job. But there was no question between staying on a soap and doing a Broadway show if you're trying to build a career, so I don't feel that my agent gave me bad advice. But I did learn something, which was read the script before you decide, because it was clear that the script needed work. And they were saying, oh, you know, we'll rewrite on the road. Well, you don't know. I mean, that's very, that was very common in those days. They took shows out a worked and worked and worked to get them right before they brought them to town. There was nothing wrong with that, except it just didn't work out.

Jeff Dwoskin 15:29

This is the game dog. No, no, no, no, the

Karen Grassle 15:32

king of dog was on Broadway. Okay. No, this was a play about George Bernard Shaw.

Jeff Dwoskin 15:37

Okay, what was the name of that one? The one that didn't make it. The basketball genius. Okay, the basketball genius got it. I then the game dog?

Karen Grassle 15:47

Well, I think it probably took almost two years before then the game dog. So I had set this deadline for myself that if I didn't have a show in town, within two years, that I would go to Hollywood, because I knew I had to earn a living. I couldn't just, you know, make do with this little cash job. And that little house cleaning and all that I was going to have to work as an actress or do something else. So it was almost two years when I got the game dog. And it was like, I get to stay.

Jeff Dwoskin 16:27

That Aren't you an award right nomination for Best Newcomer?

Karen Grassle 16:30

Oh, yeah, I got nominated for Best in Chrome. That's cool. That was cool. But of course, the show closed in five days. So it didn't give me the lift that I had hoped for.

Jeff Dwoskin 16:48

And then you're gonna change your name? Or your change?

Karen Grassle 16:51

Yeah, after a lot of hard knocks. I decided, oh, it's probably my name. I need to change my name. That'll do it. And so I created this name, K Dylan shirt. I think that was it. No, it was Gabrielle tree. Yeah. Ah. Anyway, once I got little house, the producer talked me out of keeping that name. You know, and I'm so glad you did. Because it meant so much to my father and mother, you know, to have my real name up there on the screen

Jeff Dwoskin 17:30

to share the story about the audition process for little house and getting the call that they wanted to see you. I love that story.

Karen Grassle 17:39

Oh, thank you. Yeah, my parents were good storytellers. You know. And so there are a lot of stories in my book, because I, I see things in story terms. So yeah, I was flat broke, I had come to California, thinking that I was going to do an independent motion picture. The picture fell through, the people didn't reimburse me for my airline ticket, I was flat, and it depressed me to be flat. I thought, you know, after all this time, I should be able to earn a living in my chosen field. And if I can't, maybe I better get out of it and get a real job. So I was at that low. And I got the call. Well, first, I borrowed money from my mom to get new pictures, because my pictures were old. And I took them to the agency. And then it was only about two months after that, where the agent called and said, Well, they'd like to see you for this new series. It's a pilot. It's called Little House on the Prairie. And I never heard of that. And it's being directed by Michael Landon. And I was like Michael Landon, let's see which one of the brothers from Bonanza is he? Because I was out of touch with popular culture. I didn't have a TV in New York. And I had just come back from doing Shakespeare in England. And I knew there were all these brothers, but I didn't know which one was which. And so that was how the appointment got set up. And I went over to the Paramount Studios. And when I got there, I was very surprised because there weren't a lot of other women of my tie. There weren't a lot of women at all, there was just me. And then they brought me in and I met Mike and oh my God, he's so charismatic, you know, his vibrations roll off of him. So it's quite impressive and the producer and friendly who was very successful, he had been a producer on Laffin. And so they said Tell us a little about yourself, which is what they all I'll ask you, did they ask you that to tell us a little about yourself? And that can be very trying because you think, Oh God, how can I make this interesting, but that day for some reason, I was light hearted. I told them about all these failures. And we all laughed our heads off. And before I got home, the agent was calling saying, Go back to Paramount and pick up the scenes they want you to read tomorrow. Karen, you said, I think we can get this. So I picked up the scenes and I studied, studied, they're very short, you know, and television. But still I studied, studied studying. And then I went over there. And I went in, and Mike was going to read with me. So they said, Sit over there on that couch. And I sat down, and he sat down right on the floor right beside me, I mean, really close, which was a little intimidating, you know. And we read the first scene, and he said, good. And we read the second scene. And I'm telling you, Jeff, he leapt off the floor, and said, Sander toward row, just like that. And I was like, Oh, my God, did I just get the job? And then there was this silence. And then friendly goes,

Karen Grassle 21:27

my, can I speak to you? And I was like, he doesn't like me by the park. Shoot. Well, Karen, could you please just wait across the hall in the office over there? And they're very nice. But there's something up, you know, and I'm like, Did I get it? Did I not get it? What? What's going on? And they didn't tell me what was going on. They invited me back in and they said, thank you very much, very polite, and sent me home. And I was like, what's going on? And when I got home, my fiancee was there. And he was thrilled. The agent had just called, they wanted me to do a test. I was so let down. I was like, oh, no, I had it. I have to do it. Test. Oh, no. So my very smart, you know, and he wanted me, and he wanted me to look good. So he said, you know, we're not going to try to do a pioneer thing. It'll look ridiculous. If you're dressed up in a pioneer outfit, we don't have a set. So we'll just do an interview, like we did in the room. And we'll send that to your so that'll be the test. That's what we did. And then again, before I got home, the agent was calling. And I got it and was like, Oh, I get to stage show business. I'm so happy.

Jeff Dwoskin 22:57

That's so amazing. That's so great. I remember in the book you talked about you bought a $40 dress for the audition. Yeah. And you're like, it's an investment. It's an investment. Yeah, imagine $40 for a dress was a good amount. And then just it was a good investment. By people with a lot right now.

Karen Grassle 23:20

I still had it. Haha. That's a funny idea.

Jeff Dwoskin 23:25

Yeah. So it sounds like Michael Landon knew what he wanted. They I mean, because the whole show was a lot. But it was his vision, right? I mean, it was based on the books, but it was guided by his vision of how he wanted to go. He must have just saw you. The chemistry was there. I mean, that was obvious later, too, but like, and he's, I would guess more ad friendly was more like, whoa, we got some paperwork. We gotta talk.

Karen Grassle 23:48

Yeah, I was worried because I had no name. And he knew the network was going to give them trouble, because the network was the producer, which is very unusual, you know, for the network to produce their own shows. But that's the deal that Mike had worked out ENN. Do you know, you can see from the show, Mike was excellent for casting. I mean, everybody was so well cast in that show. So it really hung together.

Jeff Dwoskin 24:20

Oh, yeah. It Yeah, the whole cast is is amazing. So what came next prepping for the pilot? I would imagine I rewatched it recently. Actually, I did you. I rewatched a bunch. It had been a while and so and like, I'm really hooked on it. I was only gonna watch a couple episodes. And my wife's like, what are you doing? I'm like, I can't stop watching it. I go, I can't believe how well the show holds up. You know, sometimes you watch older shows, you know, I'm like, This is great. I just I got read sucked in the pilot is interesting, because it was it's kind of a standalone two hour movie. And what was it like kind of just going into that world of the 1800s? I mean, I kind of that Bow ferrets and meeting your new family. Right?

Karen Grassle 25:03

Well, I was cast about nine days before we were to start shooting. So there was no time for research. There was no time for preparation, I started to read Little House in the Big Woods. And I brought Little House on the Prairie with me to location. And we just went to work. So I had the script, in which I was worried that Carolyn seemed negative. And I thought, well, you know, it's a part and I need a job. So if she's negative, she's negative, I've got to take this. But when we got there, and we went to work job, the first scene was the little family, getting in the wagon, to say goodbye to Carolyn's parents and go off into the wilderness. And when I experienced that scene, with my little girls, you know, tucked in back and one on my lap, and saw the parents, and I knew I probably never see them again, and didn't know where the hell I was going. All of a sudden, I just had this regard for Carolyn and her bravery and her loyalty to her husband. And so I bonded with her. No. And then off we went. And that was a really good beginning.

Jeff Dwoskin 26:31

It was great. It's, it's it is it is emotional, because you know, you know, you're never gonna see him again. Yeah. Did I read? I was reading and so this popped out at me that was that scene. Was that supposed to be in Michigan?

Karen Grassle 26:43

Yeah. The Little House in the Big Woods? Was in Michigan or Wisconsin?

Jeff Dwoskin 26:49

Yeah, Michigan? Well, I popped out because I'm in Michigan. So I was like, oh, you know, he's your home state.

Karen Grassle 26:55

Right. Are you there now? Yes. Well, you know, Laura Ingalls Wilder, it's just so highly regarded all throughout the Midwest. Well, I mean, all over the country, but especially in the Midwest, where people really appreciate the history that was in her books.

Jeff Dwoskin 27:15

Hi, sorry to interrupt with take a quick break for our sponsors. And we're back with our amazing conversation with Karen Grassle. I read also, which I thought was great is in that scene, there's kind of like, a smile you do. And it was like, it was like a, I'm smiling, mostly on board types. And like, it's not like, he may have not noticed that. So he was rewatching it and he was like, oh, and he really liked it. I thought that was that was kind of neat. Just how you can real emotion kind of can can slip in there, it was

Karen Grassle 27:47

very helpful, because that was the first time that I got a positive affirmation of my work from him. So it was like the beginning of a working relationship, where he was saying, yes, go with what you're doing, which builds your confidence.

Jeff Dwoskin 28:06

I was reading in your book when I was rewatching, the pilot, I'm like, during the Christmas prepping for Christmas and Christmas scene and you're plucking the turkey. And I remember thinking myself, that's a real looking prop. And I was like, that adds a that's a hell of a prop team. They got there, because that really looked real. In your book, it was real. And I was like, Oh, my Oh, interesting. Yeah. Like, how much research did they do? It's for authenticity in terms of like, oh, that that candlestick? I'm just making something up for a second. But yeah, that candlestick wouldn't have existed yet. Or, you know, that kind of Oh, yeah,

Karen Grassle 28:41

they were. Yeah, they were wonderful. Both the set designer, the set decorator and the prop man, they were totally into it, to find as authentic stuff as they could to be as creative as they could with it to build things when necessary. I mean, I really respected the way they did that.

Jeff Dwoskin 29:02

It looks like a lot of attention to detail went into that show, like a lot.

Karen Grassle 29:08

Yeah, I think that's one of the reasons that holds up.

Jeff Dwoskin 29:10

Yeah. And you know, in the storylines to like dealing with a lot of real stuff. That's another reason I think it holds up because a lot of the themes still kind of can relate to today. So strong, like, yeah, in the first year, and I wanted, you're talking about the contract negotiations. So before that happened before that, what were the relationships like and the building of the relationships with you and the other, you know, Michael and Melissa and all the other cast members, you know, before then we can kind of go into what happened in a second, but what was it like building during that first year?

Karen Grassle 29:45

It was great. We were all working so hard. We were under so much pressure of time, and everyone was giving 100% or more. So there was a tremendous bonding and You know, because of the pilot where the family had been on their own, basically with the wagon and the crew out in the wilderness, we had already formed tight bonds during the pilot, and I love children. So it was easy for me, because I authentically was interested in them. And then I was so pleased when the supporting players showed up first Victor French, of course, on the pilot, but then the town people, oh, so wonderful. All of them dyed in the wool professionals, you know, really good actors, everybody bringing themselves to the table. For example, the first day that Scotty McGregor and I had a scene together in the mercantile. She said, would you want to rehearse? I said, Oh, yes. And we ran that thing over and over and over. We both really liked to rehearse so that when we were shooting yet, we could just let go, you know, let fly with it. Victor was the same. He loved to rehearse. And he he used to make fun of actors who didn't like to rehearse. But you know, there is no one way to do it. There is no one right way. The people who do it from their instinct, and intuition, they can be just as moving as people like Scotty and Victor who would love to rehearse.

Jeff Dwoskin 31:31

Yeah, well, it's good that you found people that have the same mindset. And so that must have been, I think they helped elevate the scenes, I'm sure to be able to negotiate the egg price, all that kind of stuff. So a couple of things that you mentioned, like fun on set, I was one of the funny stories in your book is that they would play practical jokes. And that one of them was that you were digging a ditch. And then maybe you didn't think was funny design. But the you're like, What the hell? How much of this ditch dive to dig. And then you look up, and they're all laughing because they stopped like a while ago, and they just let you keep going.

Karen Grassle 32:06

Right? That was my kids love to play practical jokes. I think he had gotten in the habit during Bonanza, when all those guys played a lot of practical jokes on each other. And then they would have these funny outtakes, you know? And then those funny outtakes would be up there when you look at dailies, and then it would make dailies entertaining. So there were a lot of benefits to the kind of horsing around that he liked to do.

Jeff Dwoskin 32:37

The other interesting thing that you mentioned in the book, which I thought was brilliant foresight was Michael Landon fought to not have ongoing plots so that it would play better in syndication. That's an interesting thing to think through because it's true. And then because then it would, it would open up a lot of how you could watch the show or digested or binge it now, which obviously was decades, decades away from people even thinking about that kind of thing by like, that was an interesting, interesting approach. I thought,

Karen Grassle 33:06

yeah, that was an interesting battle that he and Edie broke up over. Because Michael was convinced that if you started lending longer plot throughout a number of episodes that it would spoil it for syndication. Well, of course, now we know that it wouldn't have mattered, but at the time, he felt very strongly about it, and they parted ways.

Jeff Dwoskin 33:31

So that was a permanent thing, then that is disagreement. Oh, yeah.

Karen Grassle 33:35

Okay. Yeah, it was a serious divorce,

Jeff Dwoskin 33:39

buys a little house is ahead. Season One does great. And then an unfortunate part of the story, which I wasn't aware of, and it's it's heart wrenching is is you go to negotiate your contract after the first season. And that sort of negatively impacted the rest of the run in a way, right. And it's so unfortunate that that happened, because it sounded from what you what the story that you tell you were just kind of going through based on the information that was given to you. This is what happens if you renegotiate. And then Michael didn't really want to talk about it.

Karen Grassle 34:13

So yeah, I don't want to dwell on this story. But I guess I knew that I might never do another television series. It wasn't my first love to be on a television series. So I knew this was my one opportunity to build some security. And I knew that actors on top 10 shows got paid a lot more than what I was getting paid. And so I stuck to my guns, and that was a very unpopular choice. So Mike gave me a really, really hard time and eventually I did when I got a good contract, I got good residuals, all of which has made it possible for me. You know now in my later years to write a book to not be scraping for the next commercial to have a life more like what I choose to go to Ontario, as I did this summer and do a play was fantastic, you know, not that far from where you are Jeff. I flew into Detroit and went to across the river to Petrolia and did this production of On Golden Pond. And it was just a thrill.

Jeff Dwoskin 35:40

Oh, that's awesome. And I'm sorry, next time you call, we'll do lunch, I'll come see the play. Well,

Karen Grassle 35:46

you could have come home, they would have been so nice. All right. Well, I'm

Jeff Dwoskin 35:49

glad you stuck to your guns, and it paid off and you earned it. You deserved it. Sorry. Let's focus. let's refocus then. And let's talk about, let's talk about matter of faith. There's a couple episodes that I know where you shine. I mean, you always shine but you know, I mean, like, like my centric I rewatched. Matt, our faith recently, because I heard you talking about it's I wanted to kind of such a great episode. So great. And then. And then the other one that you talked about a lot, which was an opportunity was the award, or Michael Landon, unfortunately had spinal meningitis, and they rewrote it for you and gave you this this awesome, enhanced role in that one. I know it was important to you to have episodes where your character could shine for many reasons, in a matter of faith, like, when you reflect on that it's like, what was it like when this show was focused on you, you know, just so amazing? Well,

Karen Grassle 36:41

I just love challenges are. So I love that in this episode, I would have this big arc, being cheerful, working hard, making pies, and then having this injury, which would become really life threatening. And so it had a lot of variety in it, and a lot of physicality in it. And I like that sometimes when you're on television, it's a little like being on Zoom, or you feel like you're just in this little crane. And there's not a lot of physical life. So I love that about it really gave me a chance to expand in space and in emotion. And I have to say that when the first cut was in on that Mike wasn't happy with it. And he came to me said, well, we need to reshoot some of that. He showed it to me. And I saw what he meant that somehow we had just not gotten the the depth of this woman suffering. And so we reshot a lot of it, and tried to deepen it, and from what other people say, I think we succeeded because people still talk about that episode a lot. And then of course, she lives which is great.

Jeff Dwoskin 38:09

It is a great episode. It's funny that you know now Yes. For those that may not recall just a little scratch, a little loose wire on the on the buggy was the wagon wagon. And nowadays, you throw a little nice bore on you as you move on with your life, you know, but this is 1800s this is different, you know. So it's like, that's a whole different world. It's it's interesting, like that. And then I got to say, you know, there's that there's a scene where they're picking up the pies, or I'm feeling horrible, because you're like on the ground and you're like, you know, and then part of me is like, Oh my God, those are the best looking pies I've ever seen. I'm like I'm starving now. It was like it was such a trivia, you don't have to remember but I have the answer is

Karen Grassle 38:54

so funny. She you know, she was famous for her pies, which was the whole reason that she was staying home was to make those pies because it was going to make money for the church.

Jeff Dwoskin 39:06

Yeah, yeah, they're building like a new church or something they hadn't raised enough. Do you remember how much the pies made? No. Okay. I know, they were overjoyed because they pretty much almost pulled in for dollars before, but it's like, it's funny in context, because there were scenes where, like, How much for the book or how much, you know, it's 50 cents for that book, or a penny for a bag of licorice. And so it was like, $4 you know, you're hearing it today, like $4 can't get a slice of five or more dollars. But back then $4 You You probably built the whole church yourself. There was a lot of faith. I know it was called matter of faith. But I mean, in the book, you turn to the Bible, and it helps you get through it and Melissa Gilbert and the praying and for you to live and it's a God that you live and that was a nice theme. It was through a lot of of episodes, you know just how important religion was.

Karen Grassle 39:57

So it's interesting you know, Mike wasn't raised in a religious family, but he had this strong feeling for faith for something beyond us that mattered and that care. I think it's very reassuring. Like, that's one of the reasons so many people were watching it during the pandemic, you know, because people needed reassurance.

Jeff Dwoskin 40:23

Oh, yeah, it's, it does draw on that and kind of reaffirm faith to it. So all the episodes I watched, had that as part of it in one way or another, I think, Vic Victor's character, Mr. Edwards was dating, I'm horrible with names. So was dating they didn't and then said he didn't believe in church or didn't go to church. And then the woman that he was falling for was going to dump them for it. So he had a change of heart and ended up going adswood If RSB award episode, where the bar, Mary sets the barn on fire, and you save the day, you get how scary was it on the set with Michael was spinal meningitis. I mean, that was damn serious, right? I mean,

Karen Grassle 41:08

yeah, I got a phone call on the weekend from the producer, which he never called me. At home, there was no reason to. And here, he was calling on the weekend. And he said, Michael has spinal meningitis. He's in the hospital, he's packed in ice, and we're rewriting the award for you. We're sending over the pages as soon as we get them. So we were all on edge. While we were shooting that, until we knew that Mike was out of danger, which was maybe somewhere in the middle of the week, or toward the end of the week, it's hard for me to remember all of that fed into the atmosphere on the set, when Mary starts that fire, and Mogh gets so angry and punishes her harder than she would have normally. And I have to say that working with fire I found very disturbing. I'm like, I'm still an animal, and running near fire and running into fire. My whole system just starts alarm bells that happened on the pilot to when there was a fire on the cabin. And I just kind of felt very frantic, just like the horses

Jeff Dwoskin 42:33

fire scary. I mean, because it's you can control it, maybe you know, I mean, like a baby people that by I mean fires fire, it has a life of its own when it comes to fire. So I can I can understand that. 100% That was a great episode as well, all grades, but those are the two that I thought we could focus on. So that was awesome. And then the other thing of, I think huge note is, is battered. Oh, yeah. That is a movie of the week that you wrote co wrote about focusing on bringing domestic violence to light to too many people. And this is in the 70s. And that was can you talk about, like, what drove you to what kind of focused you in on that particular topic? And then how you got this to light because this was this was a big deal to bring this these storylines to the mass public.

Karen Grassle 43:28

Thank you. Because my was producer, director star, I was the person that went out on the road to children could we go to promote the show, every season, I would go from city to city and talk about the show and show clips from the upcoming season. And one year when I got to Fort Worth, I was introduced to a journalist who had just done this original research on domestic violence. And we had a long talk. And it was so much more interesting to me than the usual interview about television today, you know, so she really started telling me what the truth of the situation was, which I didn't know. I mean, I just had all kinds of assumptions about wife beading, that it only happened to poor people, that it only happened to uneducated people that it probably only happened to people who drank and this was all nonsense. So she straightened me out. And then she sent me her articles, which you know, in those days, you had to make a copy and then put it in an envelope and then send it through the mail. So I got them when I got home and I took those articles to my partner. She and I had been looking for a subject to write a movie of the week about out. And right away, she agreed this is it. This is what we must do. And so we began our work. And we were so lucky because there was a shelter for battered women in Pasadena. So it was only an hour or so in those days with the traffic now knows how long to get there and be able to talk to experts, and to the women who had been through this. So we did a lot of original research ourselves. And we started writing on the hiatus. And we would just write, write, write whenever we could get together, you know, depending on my shooting schedule, and she was very patient, knowing that I had that shooting schedule, but it gave us the opening to NBC. So we took this to a producer, and then all together, we took it to NBC,

Jeff Dwoskin 45:56

it's great that you're using your star power to bring something so important to shine light on it.

Karen Grassle 46:03

Thank you. It was so rewarding to be able to do that. And at that time, this was completely undercovers, you know, I mean, it was just not known about there were only two shelters in all of the United States. And our film became a training film in upstate New York for a police department, because domestic violence is one of the most dangerous situations for police. And who would have guessed that right? You think it's out on the street with criminals? But no, it's domestic violence. And then we were asked to help to lobby for House of Representatives to pass legislation to support shelters all over this country. So it was so rewarding to be able to participate that way.

Jeff Dwoskin 47:01

Yeah, that shelters in California, I think went from one to 20. I read and then yeah, you went to DC. There was a bill passed. Yeah, led to other movies like The burning bed starring Farrah Fawcett. Will you beat in tennis at the Battle of the network stars quick sidenote,

Karen Grassle 47:18

the battle the network stars that were so fun.

Jeff Dwoskin 47:23

So fun, you know, it was just so fun talking to you. I know I've used up all our time. Keep all this time has gone by it's Oh, good. So fun. I can't thank you enough. This was so great. I appreciate you sharing stories with me and everyone who wants to hear even more amazing stories. Bright lights. Prairie dust is Karen's book, and it is as 1000 More stories. It's a great read. I highly recommend it. Thank you. Besides Karengrassle.net. Where do you hang out on social media?

Karen Grassle 47:56

Oh, Instagram, and Facebook.

Jeff Dwoskin 47:59

Everyone go to Karen Graslie dotnet. There's nice little links right there to Karen's account so you can hang out with her online. Karen, thank you so much. This was so amazing. I rely on her. I can't thank you enough.

Karen Grassle 48:15

Oh, thank you, Jeff. Thank you for being so well prepared and enthusiastic about my work. I really appreciate it.

Jeff Dwoskin 48:24

Oh, my pleasure. It's what I do. I love it. It's always fun when you get to talk to someone as awesome as you. All right. How amazing was Karen Grassle the hallmark for you one check out her book, bright lights prairie dust, it's a great book and also isn't a time you rediscovered and rewatch Little House on the Prairie. It's on free TV via Amazon. You can watch it for free. Got some ads in there, but it's worth it. I loved all those stories from Karen. It's always great to hear the backstory. The story behind the story before someone becomes super iconically famous in terms of how you know them.

Jeff Dwoskin 48:35

So I hope you enjoyed that as much as I did, but with the interview over calling me one thing that's right, it's time for another trending hashtag when the family of ash exit hashtag round up, follow us on Twitter at hashtag Roundup, download the free always free doesn't cost a penny app from the Google Play Store, iTunes App Store, tweet along with us and one day one of your tweets may show up on a future episode of Classic conversations, fame and fortune awaits you. All right, today's hashtag is a special one. We're going way back we're going back for years on Twitter to #TakeATVShowBackToThe1800s I thought this was awesomely relevant that a house in the prairie takes place in 1800s and it's a classic TV show. Let's take any TV show back to the 1800s and see what happens with #TakeATVShowBackToThe1800s from brainwave Bonanza, a legendary game from the archives. Have hashtag round up #TakeATVShowBackToThe1800s the ultimate 1800 TV show mash up game tweets around tag us at Jeff Dwoskin show we'll show you some Twitter love in the meantime, here's some #TakeATVShowBackToThe1800s tweets for inspiration out Law and Order saved by Alexander Graham Bell is their excellent #TakeATVShowBackToThe1800ss tweets will and say grace who wants to marry a prospector full outhouse better telegraph Saul fantasy Ellis Island the boat to boat pin my buggy stage coach is there awesome #TakeATVShowBackToThe1800s tweets but we're not done yet. Sabrina the Teenage Witch Hunt, blacksmith ish the married to add Lincoln more show and our final #TakeATVShowBackToThe1800s tweet little playing house on the prairie. Oh yes, you saw it coming. Ah, right.

Jeff Dwoskin 48:35

Those are awesome tweets around. Also go find these tweets that I just read retweeted at Jeff Dwoskin show, show them some tweets I love well, with the hashtag over and the interview over that can only mean one thing. That's right. Episode 166 has come to an end. I can't believe it either. I thank my special guests, Karen Grassle. And of course, I want to thank all of you for coming back week after week. It means the world to me, and I'll see you next time.

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Transcribed by https://otter.ai