#132 Dava Savel Helped Change the World

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Jeff Dwoskin 0:31

All right, Fran, thank you so much for that amazing introduction. You get the show going each and every week, and this week was no exception. Welcome, everybody to classic conversations, Episode 132. As always, I'm your host, Jeff Dwoskin. Great to have you back as we dive into classic newness as only we do on classic conversations. Today, I've got an amazing guest excited to share my conversation with Dava Savel with you. Dava is a writer and a producer. You've enjoyed her work and That's So Raven, the Tony Danza show dinosaurs, Dharma and Greg Welch and Grace Ellen and so much more. Speaking of Ellen, Dava Savel is Emmy award winning Dava Savel. And she won that for writing the puppy episode of The Ellen Show. That is the episode where Ellen came out, considered to be one of the most important TV episodes of all time, Dava, and I talk all about that. And Dava shares a ton more great stories. You're gonna love it. We're dishing it big time here on classic conversations with Dava. And that's coming up in just a few minutes.

Jeff Dwoskin 1:55

Last week's episode super amazing. Episode 130 with Summer Moore producer, writer, master creator of pandemic pillow talk and amazing web series on YouTube. Check out that super fun conversation. And then last week, we also talked to Brian Kiley, comedian, and member of the Conan O'Brien team for 20 plus years, he talks all about Conan so many great stories in both episodes. If you're just tuning in to classic conversations, you got over like 130 hours to catch up so you can just better call in sick to work or something because there's a test next week. This week on Thursday, we got a bonus episode featuring segments from crossing the streams. That's the live show I do every Wednesday 9:30pm Eastern time, you can follow my YouTube channel, just search the Jeff Dwoskin show on YouTube. And you can find us there and watch live comment live. And then we delight the podcast fans with bonus episodes featuring three segments from across the 70 Plus episodes that we've done. It's TV binge watching suggestions. So if you're always wondering, what should I watch, crossing the streams is the answer for you. It's me and a bunch of my friends and we're just chatting about shows we've watched and then you can take it from there.

Jeff Dwoskin 3:14

Oh, real quick. Tell me if I'm crazy or not. So my wife and I had a date night we had a nice, lovely dinner together. And then she wanted to see the Downton Abbey movie. And I hadn't seen Dr. Strange to yet I didn't want to see the Downton Abbey movie. She had very little interest in seeing the Doctor Strange movie. They both were starting at around a 15 PM. They're both exactly two hours. So we went to dinner together, went to the movies, each saw a different movie man back in the lobby, and then finish the evening together. Weird not weird. Tweet me at Jeff Dwoskin show and let me know. I'm curious what you think because we've been getting some feedback from our friends wondering if it's syncing up. I think it's super cool. Why not that way. We each didn't waste two extra hours watching the other movie that we didn't want to see. I think it's brilliant.

Jeff Dwoskin 4:02

I do want to thank everyone for their support of the sponsors. When you support the sponsors, you're supporting us era glass it conversations and that's how we keep the lights on. I am so excited to share my conversation with Dr. Isabel with you so excited. Dava tells so many amazing stories and plus the whole oral history of the puppy episode Ellen's coming out episode. It's great stuff and I'm gonna share with you all right now. Here you go. All right, everyone, I'm excited to introduce you to my next guest Emmy Award winner, television producer and writer Dava Savel. Welcome to the show.

Dava Savel 4:40

Happy to be here. This is awesome. Thank you for having me.

Jeff Dwoskin 4:43

So excited. You have written on so many good stuff, willing grace, sunny with a chance which I love. I thought Demi Lovato was great. You know my kids were the age so I would watch it every now and then. But I'm a big Demi Lovato fan. I've seen her in concert twice Dharma and Greg Grace Under Fire dinosaur There's dinosaur love Dream on. And of course, Alan which I, you wrote one of the most important episodes of television ever the puppy episode where Elon came out. And I want to talk about that in depth because it's it's fascinating. It's it's got to be amazing to have impacted not only television, really probably the world but really the world. So it's really great to talk to you. Hello,

Dava Savel 5:21

Nigeria. It was actually like, I don't know, maybe three documentaries dot and an awful lot of interviews. So but one more what the hell right?

Jeff Dwoskin 5:36

I want to talk about everything I just want, you know, just to get a little bit of an insight on Yeah, it would be silly of me not to since you're here. How often am I blessed with television royalties, such as yourself? So I

Dava Savel 5:48

actually do you know, that is a great expression that I heard when I first started out. And I said, I wanted to be a television writer. And somebody once said to me, television writers are rich, but movie right as a loyalty. We never got that title. But we did get the money, which was very nice, at least in the 90s. Anyway. Definitely the 90s

Jeff Dwoskin 6:10

job, what led you to be calm, a comedy writer

Dava Savel 6:14

fell into it. Ask birds like a lot of people that I know, as opposed to now or kids actually, you know, study it in college came from acting and improv part of a comedy team performing in New York City cabaret circuit, which was only placed to form effect still are mirror mentors. He helped us they would come to our shows and give us notes and kind of cool. And one night, an ancient campus needs a show. He gave me his card. And I saw that he was a literary agent. I was like really bummed because I was I needed an agent as an actor. And I said, I'm, I'm not a writer. And he goes, Well, who wrote all this? I said, Well, I did. You know, my partner, he goes, well, then you're a writer. And he said, well, listen, you ever get to LA, you give me a call. So I held on to the card. And then years later, not that many years later, actually, we had kind of done as much as we could in New York, and I wanted to make my fame and fortune. So my then husband, and I moved to LA, where I discovered I was three months pregnant. And I didn't know in those days, it even have like a pregnancy test or home pregnancy test. So I'm just like walking around just feeling a little fat. And I call this agent met me for lunch. And he saw that I was a little plump. We got talking, whatever. And he said, What do you want to do? I said, Well, I'll tell you what I can't do can add because no one's gonna hire me looking like this. And he said, Well, you can write and I'm going to help you. And I said, What do I write and he said, I want you to write us back. I remember our go to spec cheers. He loved it. thought, okay, cool. I'm gonna get my first shot. Because no, you gotta write a, you gotta write pilot. And I said, Well, what do I read a pilot about? I don't know any of this stuff. And he goes, Well, comedy is conflict. So what's conflicting in your life right now. And I remember my sister was going through this really bad divorce in New York City where her and her husband refused to leave the apartment because apartments were really hard to come by. So they decided to build a wall within the apartment and live there together. And they hated each other. And I thought that's pretty, you know, conflicting. So I wrote a pilot based on it agent called me and said, you have a meeting at your pilot, and he said, the sign you I said, you're going to sign me because Yeah, cuz they thought I was gonna sell this pilot, and I met with Ed Weinberger. I was so naive. I thought he was just gonna buy the pilot. And he said to me, no, then I was to New York, and in those days to New York men to Jewish didn't understand why he met with me and he said, I think you're a good writer, and I want to keep in touch with you. Meanwhile, Lee Morris signed me prior to the meeting, so I was kind of in the William Morris Hopper, maybe six months after that first job on a game show writing jokes for like people like Betty White Vincent Price, and it was really fun. I only lasted like, I don't know, eight weeks or something. And then I got fired. And Garry Shandling hired me Alan Kamau Bell hired me for the Shandling show. And I wrote an episode and I was never so happy my life as I was writing what I knew, I knew funny, I knew not network television. I just wanted edgy. There's nothing edgier than Shandling show was on Showtime, but at the time, Garry Shandling show, and they offered me a full time job. They said, just need to sit down here. And I said, Great. And I sat down and conference room, Gary walks in the first thing out of his mouth was so I hear you have a kid and I said yeah, baby, what's the problem? And he said, I can't walk anybody who have children. And I got hired and fired in the same day by Gary. That's horrible. It's horrible. You can't do that now, but in those days, he could do it. And allons y Bell, he was terrible. You know, and it's funny because after that, you know like when we win the Emmy and stuff like that I saw Gary I saw him on numerous times and he was always like I started your career. year and I went crazy. And you hired and fired me at the same day. You're the worst person in the world, but it did get me in. And sometimes you have to accept the fact that when you're making your way up the ladder, sometimes a job, you don't need the job. Just having the script from Gary Shandling show a produce script that they paid me for. That was enough to propel my career. I didn't need a year on the show to get me where I wanted to go. It became my calling card, that script and it was really the greatest thing that ever happened because it was an excellent script and and then I just kept moving on from there going up the ladder, which was It was great. I didn't tell anybody else I have to tell

Jeff Dwoskin 10:42

whether other obstacles thrown up because being a woman trying to break into this.

Dava Savel 10:47

Yeah, in those days, it was very, very, very, very tough to be a woman you were a you were a like a checkoff. You know, like, I can't think of the word but just you know, you know, it's like if eight men on staff, well, we're going to need a woman. And you just felt like you were the token lady. And that's how it was all the time. I have friends who were on Shandling show, and they had a rough time of it. It's a very, it's a it was it's really a man's world, then tremendously, very unkind dinosaurs. I was on that there. I think there were a dozen men and me, it's tough. You really had to push your way up. And interestingly enough, the generation before me, which was like Designing Women, and the old, those women, they all worked with their husbands. It was always teams of women and men and my group of people coming up, we all came in without partners, and it was much, much more difficult. And now it's so much easier. Well, I don't know. I think it's probably relevant. But it was hard. It was hard there

Jeff Dwoskin 11:50

with dinosaurs. Please tell me you're the one that wrote not the mama.

Dava Savel 11:54

No, that was Michael Jacobs. He did that. We I tell you I am most was the voice of the mother of Fran. We couldn't find somebody and so we just we had everybody else was booked and we got the voices. We were all set. We were great. But we couldn't buy find anybody for Fran. And so the first table read they were like, hey, Donna, can you can you do the voice? Can you read it for us? Because I was acting in a background? And I said sure. And I did it. I got tons of laughs and then Dizzy came to me and they said really liked you. You're very good. I'm like, Well, yeah, but I'm a writer on the show. I'm not gonna be the voice. All right. All right. All right, right. The next week, the next table read we still didn't have anybody. They said, Well, can she do it again? I said sure. And I did it. And that was it. They offered me a contract. And it the guys were not happy. The other writers were like test you know, I saw already the writing on the wall. And so when we got Jessica Walters it was like, Oh God, thank God that God you know, I didn't want anybody hating me. It was fun dinosaurs was a blast. It was one of the coolest, hippest shows I've ever worked on it. It doesn't even get the right kudos for the major players that worked with us. And at the time, the episodes ran there were like a I remember someone telling me it was like 1.3 million in episode there was a herd of 91 on production, but we had a massive soundstage with a huge like a palm full of water. I mean, who has it? It was it looked like you're walking into well, prehistoric times. And they you know, they smoked it all you know, so it's always very foggy. We had to wear gas masks just crazy. Then it was like they realized, oh, maybe we shouldn't smoke it. We'll put it in later or something. It was it was super cool. And all the Henson people and the Creature Shop people. Everything had to be handmade and made twice as big. It was remarkable. It was such an experience. I've never I've never seen anything like that before. It was really really super cool. Just to be on the set just a walk on and it was just awesome.

Jeff Dwoskin 14:06

It's a it's a great voice cast. I mean besides I'm sure you would have been amazing but Jessica Walter Stewart pink and Sally Struthers, Sherman Hemsley, I mean just among

Dava Savel 14:16

and all the guest stars it came on. I remember okay, this skirt I came along was it was his demo buddy hack came on to do an episode so so I was a producer and my my exec said, Hey, listen, why don't you go to you know the voiceover the ADR session and help buddy out and go over his script with him. Make sure he's got the lines right. We need something changed change and they said okay, cool. So we're sitting there together and Buddy Hackett gets on me. I mean, hits on me so bad. He literally takes his hand and picks up my leg and puts it over his leg. I mean, I'm like, buddy, and he's like, wow, sure, man. I really want well, you have problems. I just I think you're cute. And I'm like, buddy, come on. On and he's like, he's just gonna Oh, what's your name? I said dava Aigars dava. Davao What kind of name is dama? I said it's my it's my Hebrew name. And he goes, You're a Jew the hell am I hitting on? You forgot one of those at home. It was so friggin cute. I would. Buddy Hackett story.

Jeff Dwoskin 15:21

I have one of those at home too. Nowadays, you get ruined for a story like,

Dava Savel 15:30

absolutely have to shoot you can't get away with now. And then the older Neo the me to movement. I almost laughed when that came out. I was like, really? Now it comes out about 15 years ago, that would have been a lot better 20 years ago.

Jeff Dwoskin 15:45

Right. Right. Right. Well, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. You had to deal with that. And then yeah,

Dava Savel 15:50

yeah. Makes you it really is. It's a boy's room. And if you can't deal with it, it was very hard, very, very, very hard yet to put up with an awful lot. It's an all the female comedy writers that I know. got very thick skins. Sometimes not thick enough. Sometimes it just it was so hurtful, very misogynistic, and stuff like that. I remember the first room I ever ran, I basically gave a list of words I never want to hear in this room. And they all had to adhere to it. Because I was running the room. Yeah, I was running the show. And just stuff that was just kind of like when I'm done. You know, I can't do it got better as it went along.

Jeff Dwoskin 16:28

Were there any shows that you use that I just I have to Adam leaving?

Dava Savel 16:32

Oh, my gosh, there was a show that I worked on. Can I say the names? I don't know if I can. But anyway, if one guy one guy and the exec producer, just like if you're in the writers room in you said a joke that he didn't like he made the writer get up and stand in the garbage can. Oh, that's demeaning. Oh, it's so demeaning. It's so demeaning. And I would just, I would always say something I, you know, and at one time, he just, I was in the hall with this guy. And he said, he just like, Let me have it. He just said you drove me crazy. You just I just I just And he took his fist and he went, he wasn't going to hit me. But he was about six, six, big guy. And he jammed his fist into the wall next to me. And his hand went right through the plot that was in plaster was like, you know, like, whatever. And big hole the wall. And I thought, oh my gosh, I'm gonna you know, he's gonna kill me. And the next day I'm going to be dead. So that night we're leaving work and I was with a friend of mine and we walked out and it was at Sony and I'll never forget like all the writers had to park like like a quarter mile away the parking spots in the lot but the exact producers got to spots right next to the offices shell upset with this guy and thinking it would screw him and I took his this guy and I we took that we took their their names, we pull them out of the parking things. We tossed them in the dumpster thinking Ooh, what we funny right? And we go to a car as we go home the next day we come in there's like a Paul in the room, you know, in the in the offices, and we're like, what's, what's going on? And the secretary says, Oh my God, you did you hear the guys are gonna get fired? What do you mean? The exec producers, okay, how do you know this? They took their parking spots away. They took out their names and you know what? They were fired. They honestly they were fired. They were fired. Maybe a week later, they actually were fired. And I got one of those spots. How about that?

Jeff Dwoskin 18:36

There you go. Karma that must have been scary, though. I mean, that was I mean to have somebody punch like that.

Dava Savel 18:42

Yeah, it is. I don't think people can do that.

Jeff Dwoskin 18:46

Now I yeah, that's that's just that's just horrible.

Dava Savel 18:51

Sure. It's still like that in some respects. But I've been on shows where you know, people are nuts. Brett Butler

Jeff Dwoskin 18:58

grace under fire.

Dava Savel 19:00

Roseanne?

Jeff Dwoskin 19:01

Did you work on Roseanne?

Dava Savel 19:02

Roseanne I knew Roseanne because I worked on Tom Arnold show on so blanking on the name

Jeff Dwoskin 19:11

Tom Arnold show

Dava Savel 19:13

who she was called the Tom Arnold show. And she was the exec producer of it and she was actually really nice to me but he was insane. He was insane.

Jeff Dwoskin 19:23

The Jackie Thomas show Jackie Thomas show

Dava Savel 19:26

we were there jacket listen, I was brought on by ABC because the show was failing and and there was a love interest that was not getting any play on the show and they thought maybe they brought in a woman so when I'm talking about the the token woman who's going to bring up the he's going to make the love angle better because she's a woman anyway and you know Tom in front of like all the writers and all the people whatever introduce me. Oh, we have our new person coming on board. Come on. Dhaba say hi and that kind of shit. You know, and I'm like, Oh, thanks, Tom. Yeah, so as The show went on I wasn't on it for very long. It was just the last seat. I think it was one on one season. And I remember we were you know in the same lot as Seinfeld and one day Tom Arnold's parking spot and Roseanne is parking spot where they were both didn't have names on them. They didn't want anybody to know where they parked. I don't know why. And Julia Louis Dreyfus made the like, you know, horrible mistake of parking and Tom spot. And so Tom decided to take advantage of it. Make it a big press thing like so he went to war. So Tom modelled the show went to war with Seinfeld over this. Of course, Julia did nothing. She made a stupid little was nothing and I don't know how much you could say on this. I guess you could say anything, right? You could say anything you want. Okay. All right. So so Tom had one of his his minions go over and take soap and write on Julia's par. Julia Louise, dry pussy, okay. And she gets her car and she's horrified and she doesn't retaliate. She just wants to kill a wave. But Tom taking advantage of the situation. He did something I don't remember what he did. But he did something to his car. And he's like, Oh, look, I changed into my car. Well, she didn't do anything but he wanted an excuse to do something again. So we went back and forth and like you know, they put on with us called pylons you know the the velvet ropes right? Lift off his parking spot. And the next day they were condoms pulled over the balls of the of the of the things of the of the pylons. It's like all over they're doing it. And it went back and forth. And Tom came into the writers room and he goes, Okay, he comes in with a with a Polaroid camera, because Okay, I want to pick it up. Everybody's gonna ask this every day. We're gonna stick a Polaroid of somebody's ass on the windshield of Julia's car and she's gonna No never depart my spot again. It's like, oh my god. Okay, so now the writers who are all male, I think it was like two women, me and somebody else and they start pulling their pants down. He's taking pictures. This is so incredibly wrong. And he's taken pick your eyes go and see your balls this okay? Yeah, we'll take he's taking pictures everybody stop pulling your parents want to confuse your wrist and I said okay, Tom, a you don't pay me enough. Take a picture of my ass and be I'm not doing that. It's disgusting. And this is disgusting thing you're doing. So I think I was I don't know. It just it just built up to where Julia was. She was so upset. What was what was going on? She was like she was she was really upset. So we were coming out of a run through and in the distance. You could see the Seinfeld people. It was like high noon. They were walking towards us. We were walking towards them. And Jason Alexander who's he's a really good friend of mine. We went to college together and he was leading the pack and you saw like a cherry every day David are way in the back that they don't want anything to do with this. And Julie's not even around she's like stuck in a dressing room. She don't want to come out and Jason comes right up to Tom Arnold. And it's like this Toronto. My name is Jason Alexander. Either I know you are. He goes and I just you know, this is crazy. You This has gotten out of hand. Julie is very upset and we just want to make peace and we just want to put this to rest. She made a mistake. She parking your spot. Can we call it a day? And Tom was like, I mean tell us, Rosie and I we own this this lot. You get a lot of luggage. And he walks away and I look at Jay and I'm like she said I'm sorry. I don't even have to say this guy's insane. He's insane. He has data because this is really gotten out of hand. That's the kind of stuff that happens so you know when our show was canceled? I'm sure Seinfeld was like this it was so happy that you know it was over but it was crazy times

Jeff Dwoskin 23:55

whatever happened to the Seinfeld crew and Julia Louis Dreyfus

Dava Savel 24:01

they made no money whatsoever.

Jeff Dwoskin 24:04

I remember little of it of that specifics of that time, but I do remember that whole Roseanne Tom Arnold powder keg phase

Dava Savel 24:13

on Jackie Thomas show. We were shooting our last episode Roseanne came up to me and she's like, I like you. I want you to run my show. I'm watching her on our show next year. And I'm like, you know, Rosie, I would love to run you. I would I would have fired all the men I you know, he she was very lovely to me. She was not impressed. She was very wary of women around Tom. At the end. She caught him having a little something something with an assistant. And she went friggin ballistic. The word on the street was I heard about it, but I didn't see it. She got into her car. And she just took off and she went literally she drove towards some poor people. Yay walking across the lot trying to get home to kill him to run them over and and he the kid jumped out of the way and she just screeched off the lot. And that was the end of it. His show was canceled and she filed for divorce and all stuff. That's the crazy stuff that happened.

Jeff Dwoskin 25:19

That's an insane sir. I remember Tom Arnold. At some point he married a girl much younger than him who was from Michigan. I wonder

Dava Savel 25:26

who was her we used to call them twit and twats. These tube ones and twit and twat would I don't know which one did which one would walk around with a little cooler full of water for him and the other would give him neck massages. Maybe she was twice I don't know. But they were like, on the Nexium all the time and Roseanne never said anything. And that was I think he was caught with one of them. Or maybe both of them. Who knows Dava, you

Jeff Dwoskin 25:54

have the best stories ever. You hang out with me. I'm so excited. Like, I do you want to dish on Tony Danza?

Dava Savel 26:04

Tony Danza. I actually love Tony.

Jeff Dwoskin 26:07

I love Tony Danza. Yeah,

Dava Savel 26:09

Tony Danza. He and I got along so well. You know, a lot of times these stars, they can really tell when you're asked kissing them. And I never did with Tony. I was always very honest with him. And so when we would do his show, and we would like shoot a scene and everybody was you know, huddled around one of the monitors and I I didn't I went to the other monitor where the hair and makeup women were and but he would finish a scene and then he would run over to me. And he would say what do you think? Do you think I said, Tony, you nailed it. That was awesome. But what about if you did this, this and this and he got a try? I'll try it and he runs back and he does it gets a big laugh. So he trusted me tremendously. I remember Warren Littlefield who was running NBC at the time, I remember him coming up to me and saying I don't know how to give Tony a note without him blowing up at me. He goes and you get along so well with him how I don't know what to do. And I said one trick always make it sound like it's Tony's idea. And he goes oh, I love that he did you just turn it around. And then Tony was very happy with it. He was a lovely guy is cute story that we were trying to find a guy that played Tony dance his father and my dad lived in Fort Lauderdale is old Jewish guy. And he was like, Well, you tell Tony, if he can find his dad all the happy to play the part, you know, just like a dad would say to. Right, so I'm in this room with Tony Danza and the executive I was introduced to but the guy who created the show and a couple of other people, whatever and Tony's like I don't know what we're gonna do, man. We gotta find someone to play my dad we have offers after this one. This one as a joke. I said, well, listen, if you can't find somebody who's bought play, dad, you know, my father said he doing? I think it's really okay. What's your dad's name? I said, Louis, because get them on the phone because I swear to God, they call my father. He goes Hello. I said, Hey, Dad, it's Dobby because Hey, babe, what's going on? I said he daddy, listen, I guess he was a dog to you. Is it? It's totally dead. And he goes what? And Tony gets up and he goes, Hey, Lou. It's Tony Danza. And my father goes. And he picks it up. He takes it off a speaker. Right? And he's like, Yeah, well, I want to you know, I heard that you're available to play my dad and you'll make just call you on that. And I hope you're okay with Yeah, yeah. Okay. Yeah. Well, you know, right. Okay. Thanks so much ego. He has a phone back to me. Like go Hello. And all I hear from my father was you little shit. And I will never forget was a funny thing. Tony doing that to my father. He was such he's a really good guy dancer. He's a really menchi guy. But I knew him. He was married happily married his kids and it was worse. It's a shame. You know? I mean, you know you don't goes on but working with him was a blast. He was such a professional and a lovely, lovely man. I mean, it's quite a temper, but he never ever, ever yelled at me. And you know, he's kind of got he would yell and eat some flowers. He was known for that. But he was absolutely delightful.

Jeff Dwoskin 29:19

That's cool. That's good to know. And then one thing of note, you wrote an episode where you reunited him with Carol Kane.

Dava Savel 29:25

Oh, yeah. Yeah, that was fun. I had such a good time that I did an episode. It was a small roll. And I said, Tony, why don't we get your wife to play this role? It'd be funny. And he was like, Oh my God. I never thought we brought it up. He was It was great. Here. We Carol came in a bunch of funny people is a shame that showed it and go it was really it was really a sweet show. And I haven't I had the best office on that show. I had Sydney protease old office. Oh, really? stunning, stunning office. And if I swear to Jeff at least twice a week, if not more, I really get a phone call here. Hello. I've sold so so so calling from Mr. Pointy. I go I'm sorry Cindy doesn't work here anymore. This is my office. This kept happening. And one day I get a call. Hello. Yes, I have Paul Newman and Joanne Woodward calling from Mr. Port EA. And I've liked this

Dava Savel 30:25

he doesn't work here anymore. But is there any chance that I could talk to them? He said no. Like,

Jeff Dwoskin 30:31

I think that was a missed opportunity.

Dava Savel 30:33

I totally missed I was so excited. It was really friggin cool.

Jeff Dwoskin 30:38

That's really funny. Yeah, it's cool. So what was it like working with Demi Lovato? I gotta say, I when I watched that show, because you know, I my kids would you know, it was the right age, right? Any any of those type of shows, if you have the kids at the right age, you'll hit those shows and there'll be a million shows you didn't see.

Dava Savel 30:56

Watch that so Raven to know your kids to

Jeff Dwoskin 30:59

watch that one. But they like Sunday with a chance was always odd. So I would sit and I Demi Lovato cracked me up. Like, I thought she was really good.

Dava Savel 31:10

She was a great, great little actress. She was she got a she went off. It was a a slide, it went down. And it was a shame. It was really a shame. She has a lot. She had a lot of stuff going against her family wise and stuff like that. She worked really hard. And then she got kind of sloppy. She didn't want to come in she she became very, I don't know, you know, I don't know, she I'm sure she was even how old she was at that time. But we had like people like Justin Bieber would come in to say hi, and and Selena Gomez would come in with a bit of best friends to say hi, we had so many interesting people who just loved her. And it was really fun in the beginning. And then it went down the shitter. And we ended up with a show called. So random. Random. Yeah, that was the kind of like, and actually that was a lot of fun to do, because that was like a sketch show. And we use the best of the people who were on lavato show. And it was like it was a crime not to use these kids. They were awesome. Just because she was screwing up. So that's what we did. And and that show, I think it ran for a year. And that was it. But you know, it was interesting being part of the Disney camp. I came in when on that. So Raven, when Raven was like, I don't know, she was like, 15 years old. And, and this he didn't have any network writers. That was nobody would have worked. Oh my god who would work for cable. You know, that was like going to the worst thing you could ever do. I just done Ellen. And I did Ellen and then I did you know willing Grace and I did. I did a bunch and I knew the guy who created the show and he asked me to come aboard and I wasn't I was in between stuff nothing was happening and what will shit I mean, how much you're paying me. Okay, so I came aboard and and you know, Disney to their credit was very pro LBGT.

Jeff Dwoskin 33:16

You know, lb LGBTQ?

Dava Savel 33:19

Yes, the que was there too at the time. And they were thrilled to have me I'm not gay, but they were thrilled to have me anyway. And then that's a raven ran for 100 episodes. And it was the first time anything had ever done anything. And we work for an Emmy for Best kids programming. It marked a time in my life. And I went, you know, it's very interesting being a very big fish in a very small pond. And over the years, the pond got bigger and bigger. And they were like, oh my god, we can get this writer and this writer and this writer and to disease craft it. I mean, they grew, they grew and became so big. I mean, you know, Hannah Montana and all these big shows that came out of Disney Channel. And really at the end of the day, Disney God bless a man, you can still get residuals from Disney. You can't get residuals off of like Netflix and anything streaming, there's no residuals. I mean it's terrible only there's only network residuals, what shows on you know, a network they're not they don't plan like they used to, right. But Disney it was it's actually a very, you know, it's not that place to work. They were really super nice. So I stayed at the Disney camp. So that's when you go from you know, that's a raven to you know, somebody with a chance and so random and I did a pilot there with Zac Efron

Jeff Dwoskin 34:38

high school musical

Dava Savel 34:39

notes before I say like, Yeah, I know. He was 15 at the time with a big gap in his teeth. He was adorable. It's crazy, right? I mean, you really watch all these kids come up in the world. And they were great. It was a breeding ground for really good talent. Disney went all over the country to find good talent. So

Jeff Dwoskin 35:00

Though then they would spin off because on that so Raven, Kyle Macy was on that. And then he became Cory in the House right show. Yeah, they do that a lot where they spin off one character and into another thing on it and

Dava Savel 35:11

absolutely yeah, I mean they're not pretty smart, tremendous amount of work goes into you know all their publicity and their audience participation and all that stuff and all these marketing people and they know exactly what they're doing and what pops and what doesn't pop and it's I mean, look at Raven, I mean, I came back to run her show Ravenstone kids loved her. That's because a Disney Do you know raise already she's, she's like, 35 years old. The matter those kids love her.

Jeff Dwoskin 35:41

She was a cheetah girl and she got such I got girls so you know,

Dava Savel 35:54

the you know it, you know that whole group?

Jeff Dwoskin 35:57

Right? So it was Woody Allen that be considered part of the Disney family that was ABC, Disney. Why

Dava Savel 36:01

would you think so now? Yeah, Ella? No, Ellen was an anomaly unto itself. I came aboard the year before she came out and came on as a co exec producer. And then the next year she asked me to run it. I'll never forget, we were all sitting around her house to hire, you know, hired a great group of writers. And there was another exec producer with me, Mark Driscoll, we were sitting in Ellen's house, you know, having food and drinking and celebrating the new season. Analysis is out guys. You know, I want to I want to tell you all something, we all kind of stopped and looked at her and she goes, I just wanna let you know that I'm going to be coming out this year. that split second I went well, it was nice. So we're gonna show we're gonna get fired. We didn't get fired. Well, we did. But But now before you produce that before we produced the coming out episode, but I remember it was like the greatest and then it was like, Oh, we're screwed. That was one of the most interesting times of my career. What was the apex of my career? I hate to put it that way, because it was so long ago. But you know what, you can't top it. Because it was such a, it was such a, it was a moment in history. It was a it was such a phenomenon that yeah, it's great to win an Emmy. But I want to Peabody for that. And that's for journalism, that it was an act of journalistic brilliance done on my part, but it was so difficult was so difficult to do that, you know, you had to we had entire season to do and it was it was not the season Ender. It was I think we had three episodes, and we did it on purpose, not to make season and we didn't want to be gratuitous. We didn't want to do it during sweeps week. We wanted to make it just, you know, but it was it was it was difficult. She had to make her her play for it. She had to go to Disney. And we all walked with her and was really what she needed to do in her life. She just couldn't live a lie anymore. And she hated what she was doing. She couldn't stand and how much can you write a show of if you can't have relationships, that's what people want to see. They want to see girl next door going out with a guy she want to do that, then you got to work towards something. So the entire season was about her coming closer and closer and closer to getting to the place where she wanted to come out. And it was kind of cool, creating that season. The arc of that season. So many guest stars came aboard. She kept meeting with psychiatrists, she kept going to one psychiatrist to the next to the next to the next. I remember we had Harvey Corman as one of them, and they were just wondering what was better than the next. And of course, the last one for the coming out episode was Oprah. And she was the one that said it was okay to be gay figuring. If Oprah said it was okay to be gay, then it's okay to be gay.

Jeff Dwoskin 38:48

Yeah, whatever Oprah says goes pretty much. Yeah, as lovely

Dava Savel 38:53

as you would imagine her to be. She's one of the nicest people. She cried in the office, our offices, she watched what we had shot, and she did the tears coming down her face. And she's like, thank you so much for letting me be a part of this course her film crew was right there too. So I think it probably looked good that she was

Jeff Dwoskin 39:12

yeah, it's it's interesting that people listening now that you know, it's just, it's almost been 25 years. And now the idea of somebody being gay on TV or something like that is just is so norm, but this is what made it okay. And this is what made it normal today. And it was like this was that first step.

Dava Savel 39:31

Yes. Also, we were killing. We were taking a show that had a huge following and that it was a big hit. Elon was a big hit for ABC, and we were basically shooting it in the foot. I mean, it may have been good for Elon, but was it good for the show and fat? It wasn't because after we did the show after we did the coming out episode, although the ratings were through the roof. I mean, Ellen fired all of us after that, and she just got a whole new group of people kind Like this was the new her and she wanted to start fresh and it only lasted one more season. And then they can do she and then she was like a pariah. She couldn't get arrested in Hollywood. So it's growing pains, I suppose looking at it that way, because by the time I did Will and Grace, I remember they they didn't have the pitfalls that we had. I mean, they they started out with two gay characters. I mean, are you kidding me? You can say this. And this. We couldn't say any of this. It was amazing. The leap that, you know, but they said they couldn't have done what they did. Had it not been for what we did on Ellen.

Jeff Dwoskin 40:36

Absolutely. What Why do you think Ellen cleaned house after? Because you are the crew that helped her? Yeah, got her voice out there. And this, this message out there?

Dava Savel 40:47

I don't really know. I'd love to say I know. I mean, one of the people that got get that got cleaned out was her own brother. So I mean, it's not like she had anything against me personally, but maybe she did. But no, you know what I saw Ellen, after, you know, like you saying is 25 You know, the 20th anniversary of it. And I mean, hugs and kisses. Like she had just seen me, there's no bad feelings or anything. I guess she just saw herself as somebody different. The problem is, is that when we did the episode, you know, when you do something like that, you want to make your protagonist you want make Ellen vulnerable, as vulnerable as possible because the audience then loves her. And they go towards her. And also we want to make it so that we all knew she was gay. And Ellen, the character kept fighting it. And that was what made her so endearing. And so where the audience is ahead of its own cat of the character saying it's okay to comment, you know, that kind of thing. But Elon fought it fought it fought it until the very end. And then she finally says in the airport, I'm gay. And of course, you know, the room, the whole place was crazy. And, and then the SEC, and then the year that she was an out that last year, my feeling was that she knew more than the audience. It became almost like a club that the audience was not a part of. It was this gay club, and you're excluding your own audience. And I think that's the death of a show. I think what's so wonderful is when the audience learns with the characters there. They see their lives through their eyes and an Ellen I think, screwed the pooch on that last season. But but it was really cool. The people who came aboard Demi Lovato, Demi Moore, and

Jeff Dwoskin 42:42

Gina Chris shine really by Bob Thornton. Yeah,

Dava Savel 42:45

Billy Bob Thornton was really cool or Dern was awesome. And Laura Dern and I remain friends, the amount I mean, we were getting calls from people saying, I'll just I'll just say one. Well, I never Mick Jagger's people called and said, Oh, he'll say a line and it was like, love to give them all away. Everybody was there. I remember

Jeff Dwoskin 43:05

Katie Lange and then Melissa Etheridge, to the theme song of the second part.

Dava Savel 43:09

Unbelievable. On believable. Yeah. Melissa Etheridge was great. They were all great. I remember Tracy Chapman was sitting in the audience. You know, I mean, people aren't just coming to see it. You know, it was like, it was really super cool. Of course, it'd be a huge bomb threat. So we had to empty out the whole audience, then a dog's going through it. And I mean, you have no idea the amount of hate mail we got it was Disney didn't even want us to see it. It was just it was stacks, stacks of letters of hate mail. It was frightening. You know that taking up ads, you know, all the Christian coalition people and all this shit. And it was the best of times. And it was the worst of times. Very, very, very frightening. And it was unlike anything that any of us had ever been through. So when you know, and we won the Emmy, I remember Gil younger, he directed it and he didn't win the Emmy and his award is right before ours. And when he did win an hour off. I don't think we're gonna wait for best writing on this. But we were up next and I think it was what's his face and friends. Matthew Perry announced you know the winner is the writers from from Ellen and we went out of our we were so excited. I had done a pilot for Bette Midler. While I was running Ellen. I used to sneak out the thing this hunt was a podcast. It is but I used to sneak out during lunch and meet with bet on another soundstage on another studio because I was like, I mean, who who runs a massive show, and then it's meeting with Bette Midler to do her pilot at the same exact time. But that was the days when you got to spend a tremendous amount of plates because you never knew how long your job your job was up for. So you kind of like I wanted to make sure I had another job in the wings. So it was really, really cool. But I saw that her pilot ended up with whatever it was crazy her pilot I saw her walking down the aisle to get the Emmy and I passed bet she gave me a big hug and kiss and it was just me stupid stories like that. And you know, and then you do you get the you get your your award on stage. And then you come off, you know, state and then and then you have to go through a press junket. She was sad because Ellen, it was a huge press junket. And all the kids who were hired to as waiters, waitresses all gave us just like a standing ovation was like walking through all these, they were just so happy. nine tenths of them were gay, and they were so happy to be represented. And anyway, so I gave the whole press junket, the whole nine yards, but go to the loan, and you finally leave, and then you have to go through the lobby and go back up the stairs and come into the back of the auditorium with it and muse was still going, and as I'm going up the door I pass, not Mel Brooks it was Carl Reiner that he was coming out to a bathroom. Oh, look at sure you got it, me and I? And he goes, congratulations. I said Oh, Mr. Ryder, I said this is a bit is a bigger moment meeting you than getting this. Thank you so much. So really nice guy, Carl Reiner.

Jeff Dwoskin 46:23

Wow, that's great. So that's really cool.

Dava Savel 46:26

It was really cool that I got back to my seat. And I just thought the whole night I'm going to call Reiner he's just like, screw the enemy on your on your lap. Writer. It was really, really cool. Yeah,

Jeff Dwoskin 46:38

that sounds like an amazing night to be rewarded for for writing such an important episode. Yeah, you know, I mentioned it before, but I rewatched it part one and part two. And it's great. I mean, even though a spoiler I knew the ending, but it was so funny. And there was never a moment where you're like, Oh, that felt dated. It really didn't. It was like, it felt like that could have been done now. And I you know, and it's like, so there wasn't anything to me that really aged, you know, I mean, you know things normally age, right? And so, especially when you do something for the first time, like sometimes when you watch Friends, you know, like where I explained that some of my friends now I'm like it was really a big deal back then. Like they didn't, they did a lot of things and they're like, but you watch it now and some of them. You kind of tense up inside your stomach gets a little knotted the way they handled it. But the puppy episode was just, I think it remains perfect. I mean, it's like it really is. I'm not just saying that it just it was great. And it's like, it was fun to revisit it. Yeah,

Dava Savel 47:36

amazing writing staff. We really did. These guys were top notch comedy writers. We were. Yeah. You know, it's funny, because when we saw it when I saw LM like, you know, in 2000 Well, it was like 2008 Right? No, could have been that long ago. The 20 year anniversary? No, it would

Jeff Dwoskin 47:58

have been, I think it was in 1997. So 2000 Yeah, no, that's

Dava Savel 48:08

what am I talking to you for?

Jeff Dwoskin 48:11

I can't do math on the fly.

Dava Savel 48:14

The worst. That's the worst. They showed the episode. Cuz she was doing her talk show this show the episode in its entirety to her audience before she started because the whole Ellen show is dedicated to the puppy episode. And she had like Laura Beck, Lordaeron and, and Oprah and all these people. And the audience loved it. So when I saw Elena, I went, I said, Oh my god, she goes, it totally holds up. It holds up data and holds up I'm like, Yes, it does. It does hold up. After all these years. It's big. She's I think she's a comedy genius. I really do. She's tough cookie, but, but she knew what was funny and she knew work.

Jeff Dwoskin 48:56

Yeah, I've always been a big fan of Ellen DeGeneres is stand up by the ice her crunching on the ice and filling the ice up is just so just a masterclass it's it was so funny.

Dava Savel 49:07

Oh my god. Yes. about gay people. You know, eating ice you know is that is that gay thing to do? Eating is a brilliant, brilliant stuff. So much fun. We had so much fun. And the audience was just like hanging on every word because they were just waiting for her to sit. They knew she was coming out on this episode. And he and ABC all the executives were so nervous. Oh, Rex, it was super, super cool. When she finally said at the place went, they went berserk. It was fun. It was really fun. And then of course it all crashed down on her so crazy, right? It's just crazy.

Jeff Dwoskin 49:42

Sometimes when you go you're gonna make such a difference in the world like that. It just sometimes the payback is more long term than short term. It's people don't understand what's happening while it's happening. And then upon reflection it it can everyone can learn from it and grow from it and I can and imagine how many people resonated with that episode and were came out as a result of it and just felt better to be part of the world because of it. It's just it's just an amazing thing.

Dava Savel 50:09

I had friends my best friend flew out and my assistant her sister who's gay flew out and we put them in the scenes you know they needed extra so what the block no we stuck them in there and stuff so they're all in it so it's iconic for them also to see themselves in the show and I have the at the end of the show there Melissa Etheridge gives Elena toaster ovens for coming out

Jeff Dwoskin 50:35

right right.

Dava Savel 50:36

Right and she says she stamps a like a contract like a lesbian contract. Okay, you did it you did it. Here's your toaster oven and I kept the kept the contract. It's just something to keep you know from it. It means nothing now No, that's

Jeff Dwoskin 50:54

that was a great thing because it was a callback to the joke from the earlier episode or and what was funny about that was when Melissa Melissa Etheridge was stamping it, you could tell she was just like at one point, I think she stamps the actual clipboard. Just like it was just funny that they still left that in they didn't You didn't redo it, you guys didn't redo it, just like she just randomly stamping.

Dava Savel 51:18

It was so fun. So those efforts was great. They're all great. They were you know, it's funny, we were after, you know, at the Emmys and after we won it, whatever. And you you go to this this governor's ball, it's incredibly beautiful, you know, the chandeliers and all the crystal and all the and all the swag. It's like, holy moly, wrong gowns. And, and and you know, and the, you know, you're walking around with this big fat me, you can't put it down, by the way. And I know, you can't, there's no way to put it. You know, it's kind of like holding a purse, it's all you have. And you got your table assignments. And I went to my table, and they had me seated next, Ellen. I see Ellen sitting there. And there's two people who were sitting next to her, which is my seat. And I don't know who they are. But I was just trying to be like, you know, funny, and I went excuse me, someone sitting in my seat, like just being an asshole. Right? And the people turn around and it's Demi Moore and, and what's his face? Because she was married. And Bruce Willis.

Jeff Dwoskin 52:25

That's funny. That's really funny.

Dava Savel 52:27

Bruce Willis stairs up because oh my god, I'm so sorry. Please sit down. And Ellen was like pitch just like, you know, get out of your job. You know, she wants to sit next to them. And I'm like, no, no, no, no, you stay. You stay. You're You're Bruce Willis and Demi Moore. I'm just a peon. I'll leave. You know, don't worry, but

Jeff Dwoskin 52:44

great story. So Wow. So I read I'm sure it's been on the list of a million greatest moments in TV history. But the hard part about searching Ellen is because of the new show. The T Nivea gets all mixed up, anyway, but like, so at the Hollywood Reporter 2010 Top 80 greatest moments in TV history number 34. Is Ellen DeGeneres coming out on television between the fall of the Berlin Wall? And number 35, The Beatles on The Ed Sullivan Show?

Dava Savel 53:18

Wow, that's kind of interesting. It's cool. All right.

Jeff Dwoskin 53:21

And then a variety named a generous as a person who has done more than any other celebrity or public figure to influence Americans attitudes to gay rights. So it says the generous, but we know dava that you were part of that. So it's, it's a really cool, it's awesome.

Dava Savel 53:39

This part is, is that you know, when people say what did you win an Emmy for? Well, you can pretty much say nine out of 10 people who say what they want an Emmy for they go oh, I didn't see that episode. Oh, that's nice. But when I say they asked me and I say oh, yeah, Ellen came out of the claws of the coming out episode. Everybody knows it. So if you have to win it for something, that's the one to win it for. And that's what's so cool is it everybody knows it. And you know what, as far as I'm concerned, it's like, it probably is the apex of my career. I've worked a lot since then. But it makes you really, it made me think in a different way. It made me think that I wanted to do more newsworthy or more, just something that wasn't just entertaining, that really meant something that that people giving back in it. And then I remember someone saying, You're never gonna have this again, television is just more the same. And it's true. That's a it's an old expression, but it's very, very true. And so I'm happy for what I got out of it. And now I've come to accept that it's just more of the same as much as you'd like to write shows like insecure and stuff like things that really like break the barriers and they're just so few and far between. They're wonderful if you can get on those and be a Part of that kind of smore than history, it's it's really, it's socially relevant things that

Jeff Dwoskin 55:08

you didn't just break a barrier, you broke a barrier that 20, almost 25 years later and still beyond right is still had a tremendous impact and helped so many people a

Dava Savel 55:21

lot, a lot, a lot of letters. I gotta tell you a lot of letters thanking us people over.

Jeff Dwoskin 55:26

Oh, I can imagine, which is, it's a wonderful legacy to have. I can't thank you enough for hanging out with me. You have, I'm sure a million more stories, but I

Dava Savel 55:40

stuff those times. Right. That's the good thing about this business is that like, everybody has a story. And you know, when you hear them, like Betty White passed away, and I mean, I know so I never got to work with her. Everybody that I know had it. And everyone has a beautiful story. It is millions of stories in Hollywood, some that are awful, and some that are just they're just enlightening. So very blessed to be a part of the club that wants me for remember, I

Jeff Dwoskin 56:12

suppose. Well, I am honored that you spent time with me and came on my show. I can't thank you enough.

Dava Savel 56:18

Thank you. It's a pleasure being here. Thanks for having me.

Jeff Dwoskin 56:22

All right. How amazing was dava I told you right promise you amazing you got amazing so many great stories. So many. It was so fun. Well with the interview over calling me one thing oh my god, it's time for another trending hashtag and the family of hashtags that hashtag round up fall hashtag round up on Twitter at hashtag Roundup, get the free hashtag roundup app always free cost you nothing at the Google Play Store or iTunes App Store. get a notification every time a game starts tweet along with us. And one day one of your tweets may show up on an episode of Classic conversations fame and fortune awaits you. Today's hashtag inspired by Dava's time at Disney and all the celebrities should dished on #DisneyACelebrity Can you believe it? Disney a celebrity mash up existed in the hashtag roundup ecosystem and we're gonna read tweets from it #DisneyACelebrity was hosted by Petey probs tags a weekly Game On hashtag around up all right hashtag Disney celebrity take anything Disney take a celebrity mash them up. It's a mash up game when you mash these things together. What happens polarity Alright, let's read some #DisneyACelebrity tweets. Megan Fox and the Hound pink rebel, the artist formerly known as Prince Charming. These are some great #DisneyACelebrity tweets to kick us off. Minnie Driver Mickey Rooney mouse Alice Cooper in Wonderland, finding a Leonard Nimoy guest Tom Hardy, Justin Timberlake, Little Kim Possible. These are some great #DisneyACelebrity tweets but we're not done. WreckIt Ralph Masaccio Mickey Gervais Steamboat Willie Nelson, and our final #DisneyACelebrity tweet brave gras. Right. Tweet your own hashtag Disney a celebrity tweet tag us at Jeff Dwoskin show on Twitter and we'll show you some Twitter love. Also all these tweets will be retweeted at Jeff Dwoskin show on Twitter at the classic conversations home on Twitter.

Jeff Dwoskin 58:41

Well with the hashtag over and the interview over echoey me one thing I know another episode has come to a close. Can you believe it? Episode 132 is now in the books. I'd like to thank my special guest, Dava Savel. And of course I'd like to thank all of you for coming back week after week. It means the world to me, and I'll see you next time.

CTS Announcer 59:11

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Transcribed by https://otter.ai