#119 The Complete Jewish History of Superman with Roy Schwartz

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Jeff Dwoskin 0:16

Alright, Jerry, thank you so much for that amazing introduction. You get the show going each and every weekend this week was no exception. Welcome, everybody, to Episode 119 of live from Detroit, the Jeff Dwoskin show. As always, you guys said I'm Jeff Dwoskin. Great to have you back for us super duper faster than a speeding bullet able to jump tall buildings in a single bound episode. We got everything for you today. Author writer, journalist Roy Schwartz is here. I originally came across Roy at the Motor City Comic Con, where he was showcasing his book, his Superman circumcise the complete Jewish history of the world's greatest hero gotta tell ya this book incredible. And Roy was kind enough to sit down with me and we kind of go through an abridged version of the history of Superman, the creation of the character that we all know and love today that was created in 1938 by two Jewish teens, Jerry Siegel and Joe Schuester, the sons of immigrants from Eastern Europe and they Bates their heroes origin story I don't know. I almost told you I'm not gonna tell you got to listen to the interview to get all the awesome details and believe me it's fascinating once you hear it, you're like oh my god, this is great. It just fascinating the day American icon we all just based in in so much Jewish mythology and background and we're always gonna lay it all out for us and just a few minutes.

Jeff Dwoskin 1:58

I do want to thank everyone for all the letters DMS all that kind of good stuff telegrams, I appreciate it. I read each one frame the ones that are frameable everyone's i Oh my God, how are you gonna top the happy days trilogy? That was like the happiest of days I like I know. But then boom, right Spencer Garrett from winning time on HBO Chick Hearn Oh my god. So many great stories from the set of winning time and Star Trek The Next Generation getting your Star Trek on and Once Upon a Time in Hollywood working with Quentin Tarantino, Brad and Leo. I call him Brad and Leo now at least in the DM so many great stories. I got so many compliments on that on that interview. It was it was really great. And then the last episode was Judy Tenuta one of the funniest human beings and she's fighting cancer and she's in remission. She came to kind of share a journey with us and share some laughs That was just such a treat such a treat, and I got a treat for ya.

Jeff Dwoskin 2:56

Monday's episode April 11. I got Wil Wheaton is on the show. That's right Wil Wheaton stopping by you may remember him from standby me Star Trek The Next Generation Big Bang Theory. Yes, that Wil Wheaton. He's gonna be here live from Detroit, the Jeff Dwoskin show to get ready for that one. Will has a new book coming out on the 12th called still just a geek. Talk about the book. We talked about his career. It's an amazing conversation. Can't wait to share it with you.

Jeff Dwoskin 3:27

I do want to take a quick second. Thank everyone for supporting the sponsors. When you support the sponsors. You're supporting us here live from Detroit, the Jeff Dwoskin show and that's how we keep the lights on today's interview sponsor the Daily Star The internet's premier news destination for listeners of live from Detroit, the Jeff Dwoskin show unlimited access to all the journalism we offer for just $1 week with code Jaffa's funny news that's clearly worth 345 dollars a week all yours for just $1 a week, get the full news experience delivered right to your inbox.

Jeff Dwoskin 4:08

All right, that sounds amazing. You know, what else is amazing. My interview with Roy Schwartz about his book is Superman circumcised a complete Jewish history of the world's greatest hero. But before we get to it, what does Mayim Bialik actress author and neuroscientists have to say about the book Mayim Bialik says quote, I am floored by this deep and beautiful examination of history, liturgy and culture. If you believe in comics as the holders of miracle myth and mystery, this book is for you. Well, that's a hell of a quote is not my friends. I just thought maybe you needed my opinion and my Mayim Bialik so it looks like some of you need to be pushed over the edge. I'm kidding. But this book is amazing. This episode is everything. You're gonna love it everything you mean like superheroes and Nazis. Yes, those two things and more. You're gonna love it. This gets crazy. Alright, here's my Interview with Roy Schwartz.

Jeff Dwoskin 5:02

All right, everyone. I'm excited to introduce you to my next guest, author, writer, journalist, author of the book is Superman circumcise the complete Jewish history of the world's greatest hero. Everyone. Welcome to the show, Roy Schwartz. Roy. Welcome.

Roy Schwartz 5:23

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for having me.

Jeff Dwoskin 5:25

Glad to have ya. This is a fascinating book that you've written, deep dive into the lore of Superman and his Jewish roots. I'm extremely excited to talk about this and to learn about it. I think the extent prior to diving into your book that I was aware, was I knew the craters were Jewish, Jerry Siegel and Joe Schuster. And I knew that they sold it for a few pennies and regretted that for the rest of their lives. That was the extent of my knowledge of the creation creation but I'm excited to have you here to dive deeper. I'm excited to get to it. Yeah. Where did your fascination with Superman and connecting all the Jewish roots and dots come from?

Roy Schwartz 6:13

So I'm Jewish? I was born and raised in Tel Aviv in Israel from actually taught myself English from comic books, which is why you'll sometimes hear we say things like swell and Great Scott, I make no apologies for that. Wow. Exactly. The Superman movie the Christopher Reeve Superman movie was I fell in love with it the first time I saw it, it came out before I was born in 78. I hatched in 1980 but it's always always there now was my gateway drug into the superhero genre, which was my gateway drug into into harder drugs into the comic book medium in general, making me a collector which is why I could never actually afford real drugs. And

Jeff Dwoskin 6:52

I think we're the same that way I got caught up in collecting things and never got into drugs either it was CDs for me

Roy Schwartz 6:59

right so you know, I kind of escalated or when deeper down the rabbit hole depending how you look at it. And I eventually moved to the States got my my Bachelor's got my dual master's and I was always interested academically in pop culture phenomenon, including comic books, but not limited to and I ended up writing my grad school thesis about the heroic figure the concept of heroism in the Jewish tradition versus the Christian European tradition. And they differ in all kinds of ways and that too was titled is Superman circumcised it was supposed to be a cheeky title in end up surprisingly winning the NYU annual Thesis competition sacrifice and that led to suppress led to the publisher pitched me on the book actually, which is not how these things usually happen. And I ended up getting a fellowship from their public library research there was a writer in residence for two years and ended up with his Superman circumcised

Jeff Dwoskin 7:55

That's fascinating. That's really cool. I'm sure the whole is Superman circumcised title threw them in that competition. But it's it's it's a fascinating title. It's a fascinating story. Once you kind of once you dig in,

Roy Schwartz 8:08

there's something called the diagram prize for oddest book title of the year, which is a humorous but very real international prize based out of the UK. It's given by the bookseller, which is their kind of Publishers Weekly and I'm currently shortlisted and one of six finalists to win this prestigious, illustrious award of artists book title in the world.

Jeff Dwoskin 8:28

That's very cool. Let me let me ask one question right up front. Sure. Because it's a very Jewish title. Couple Jews talking Superman, it this book for everyone now?

Roy Schwartz 8:37

Yes. That's a very nice question. Thank you for that. Yes. Here's the thing. I'm Jewish. I'm interested in my background. I'm interested in Jewish folklore, Jewish tradition and all that kind of stuff. I'm also a big comic book fan. I'm a huge comic book nerd. And I really wrote this book with both those audiences in mind. It is the history of comics, in of superheroes from the Jewish angle, as well as the history of Judaism from the comic book angle, you don't need to be Jewish, you don't need to care about your stuff. And there's still a lot to sink your teeth into. But this is coming from me the author, you just read the thing you tell me? No, it

Jeff Dwoskin 9:08

is, but I'm Jewish also. So I thought it was fascinating from that point of view, but I just I figured other people would do and I just wanted to kind of get that up front. And so

Roy Schwartz 9:16

I know thank you. I constantly had that. In my mind. I did not want this to be by the Jews for the Jews about the Jews did not want it to be that it is absolutely pro comic book fans, American history fans, Superman fans. Absolutely. There's enough enough stuff there.

Jeff Dwoskin 9:30

Okay, so this is not a call to arms to the Jews to claim Superman as their own. Oh, is just to say that was for everyone else.

Roy Schwartz 9:40

It's not an argument. I mean, maybe it's a little bit of bragging rights. But it's not an argument for ownership, but rather contribution if jazz was never credited as being an African American art form. It's not to say, Oh, this is ours. Keep your hands off of it. It's really awesome. That's not what this is about. But it's about recognizing all kinds of historical contexts and themes. Did you can find the comics that really haven't been either noticed or analyzed properly before.

Jeff Dwoskin 10:05

Talk a little bit about as you cover in the book as well, sort of the emergence of comic books as an art form.

Roy Schwartz 10:12

The comic book medium is a Jewish adventure. And the superhero genre is a Jewish invention. At this point for people who are Jews, definitely, but also for comic fans. This is a bit old hat, right? They're not breaking new ground by saying this. People have written about this before me in the 1930s and 40s. You had Jewish immigrants and their children in New York, they couldn't get a job in any creative industry or was respectable then Jews need and apply. There's a lot of anti semitism plus a depression. And so entrepreneurs and writers and editors and artists created mystery of their own and it really got its start in 1933 1934 with an out of work school teacher from the Bronx called maximal gains Ginsburg, who, hiding from his nagging Yiddish amama in the attic one day, I started rifling through a newspaper strips find themselves enjoying the old, Sunday funnies the paper strips that would be printed across a full page and Sunday and figured that kids might want to pay just to read that. So he licensed old comic strips came with the idea of putting it in this kind of saddle stitch magazine format, putting a new stands for 10 cents, I'm giving you the very abridged version of how it all evolved. You know, a small industry started in it was practically all Jewish, a few Italians because these the neighborhoods overlapped and these communities went hand in hand, but it was predominantly Jewish in one of these businesses was Detective Comics, Inc, called DC Comics today, owned by Harry Donenfeld and Jack Liebowitz to do some lower Eastside poor also bootleggers and pornographers before and a little bit during this whole thing.

Jeff Dwoskin 11:43

Jews don't get enough credit for that. Right, right. Right, exactly.

Roy Schwartz 11:47

Interesting, interesting stuff, that pornographers I mean, like Playboy Style magazine, just back then that was hardcore. It's sharing by today's standards, right, but they're involved with the mob and all kinds of stuff and but there's only so many reprint rights you can get and there's only so many comic strips, you can cut and paste into a magazine form before you run out of material and so commissioning new material. And then they came up with the idea of not a comic book meaning not humorous. That's why they're called that but rather Action Comics, which was the title of an upcoming anthology, meaning a bunch of short stories. The deadline was approaching, they had the printing press all booked. They were 13 pages short. And they didn't have anything to put in. So in a scramble, the pulled a previously rejected strip. From the slush pile, which Donenfeld thought looked stupid when you originally saw it something Superman something and they decided to throw it in he even by accident made the cover. And so in June 1938 Superman debuted on the cover of Action Comics number one, and the rest, as they say is history

Jeff Dwoskin 12:48

or an accident. That's that certainly became one of the most iconic covers, and probably one of the most valuable comic books to own ever.

Roy Schwartz 12:57

Yeah, it recently got beat by Amazing Fantasy 15. But I don't know if that would be replicated. But yes, it's definitely one of the most valuable copies sold in 2014 for $3.2 million. Special auction is fantasy

Jeff Dwoskin 13:09

15 Spider Man.

Roy Schwartz 13:10

No, that's all recently this year. On eBay. Yeah. 3.2 million. Yeah.

Jeff Dwoskin 13:16

Oh, man. So when you say that the strip was rejected, and I grabbed it from the pile. Can you talk a little bit about you're talking about Jerry Siegel and Joe Schuster's invention of Superman, which was rejected a bazillion times?

Roy Schwartz 13:29

This is my favorite part of the whole sort of mythology of the character, right. Jerry Siegel and George Schuster. One is the son of immigrants. Schuester was born in Toronto Metropolis by the way before New York was actually modeled after Toronto. They The plan was the Daily Star were Schuster at the age of 10 was a newspaper boy. His parents were four from Holland and the Ukraine and they were Schuester beach and then it came to Glenville, which was then a very Jewish neighborhood of Cleveland, Ohio, of all places, not New York, not LA, not Florida, but Cleveland, Ohio, in the Midwest, where he met a first generation American called Jerry Siegel, whose family came from Lithuania. They were the galleries and the two became best friends at first sight in at the age of 17. In high school came up with the idea of Superman. And here's the great part from 1934 to 1938. Nobody wanted it they pitch their idea to every single newspaper syndicate in the United States. Every single one rejected it. They got Jerry Siegel kept all the rejection letters, and I read through them which was an amazing treasure trove in itself. The idea was too gimmicky it lacked true appeal. He lacked lasting power. My absolutely my absolute favorite. It was too fantastical for kids to relate to. I just love that. It's really great. And then you know they got their start 1936 for DC Comics they did Henry Duvall, which was sort of like musketeers ripoff they had called they had slammed Bradley so they got their foot through the door. It wasn't you know, from from all to from nothing to all, and then they got their strip out in 1938. In turns out that it was not too fantastical for kids or for adults to give you a scale bestselling comics until then reach 200,000 copies. A very very small group managed to break 400,000 copies, Superman very quickly got to 2.2 million by 1942 Superman series collectively sold 12 million newspapers, the syndicates that rejected him everywhere. They ended up syndicating him in 230 newspapers reaching 25 million people then, you know, a year and a half into it. This is a year and a half since he showed up we're talking making 40 So the depression tail end but still the depression he got the Adventures of Superman radio series, four and a half million listeners a third of whom were adults, the Fleischer cartoons shown in movie theaters prefiguring film noir by decade of change. 20 million people watching it he had his own dedicated Superman day in the 1940 New York World's Fair that broke all attendance records. He was a Macy's Thanksgiving Day Parade, balloon, Time Magazine decode and the number one juvenile Vogue in the United States. And all this is during the depression and just a year and a half since he showed up. That's amazing.

Jeff Dwoskin 16:13

That's incredible. That is really now had that had Seagull and shoes are sold and to DC already at this point.

Roy Schwartz 16:19

Yes. So the the original sin of the comic book industry, the story is a lot more convoluted. And I think a lot more interesting than the romantic narrative and going through quite quite quite a bit of detail in the book is that nobody thought about this. Yes, he was a brainchild. They loved him. They believed in him and all that kind of stuff. But nobody thought about this. There was intellectual property, there wasn't a concept that this is all worth money. And we'll make a minute This was fodder. You know, this was That's right, this and next week, we'll write that and the following week write something else. And they cut and paste what was originally a newspaper strip into page format and sold 30 pages to DC Comics for $10. A page a total of $130. That's about 20 100 adjusted, and with it they sold the rights in perpetuity. So DC Comics own Superman for $130. That's it. And then 1945 came a lawsuit that lasted till 2016. How did that end? It was a series of very ugly, very acrimonious lawsuits and counter lawsuits and counter counter lawsuits that began with Sega and Schuster and then continue with their heirs. Again, it's complicated. I go into the book, and it ended up with sort of dispute resolution and didn't buy a couple of court decisions in terms of what was binding and not but ultimately they settled so you could argue that they never got what they deserved, and unfortunately signatures are died where they live most of our lives in poverty. They died without quite without a lot of money but they just have a small stipend, but the family now owns. Schuster's family got virtually nothing. She was there was not married, he didn't have children's cousins, they got dirty, nothing, seagulls, widow and then his daughter and a few other family members who run the state are now owned about 6% of Superman, as well as an annual payout. So they make several million dollars a year. So it may be pittance compared to what they deserve. You could argue but they are not hurting.

Jeff Dwoskin 18:11

It's not probably not what they could have had. But it's not it's not horrible either. But given how long it took, I'm sure it still feels painful. Let me ask you a question. Try the comparison like what what evolution of the character had Siegel and Schuster created versus the version you fell in love with 1970s Superman with Christopher Reeve because Siegel and Schuster, I created the beginning of the concept, right? I mean, eventually, what we fell in love with as Superman really, really evolved beyond the initial idea, right?

Roy Schwartz 18:43

There were proto versions of Superman actually, the very first version was a short story in which he was a bald villain style Lex Luthor. And that's that sort of goes back to even 1932. But by 1934, they were not inspired, but rather compelled by the rise of Nazism and anti semitism domestically. There were enough villains in the world, they wanted a hero, and they talk about this and you turn them into a hero. Again, there's a whole evolutionary tree of how this concept evolved. And if you look at the superman who debuted in 1938 He's not this gentle, amicable, you know how after he saves loads from the helicopter in the Superman The Movie she says, Who are you as a friend and he flies off which is great. So this is not the superman who showed up in 1938 he the first thing he says to lawyer says you need to be afraid of me because he's scary. He's this angry pugilistic smack them around New Deal, Uber liberal. He spends the first issue pretty famously beating up landlords and wifebeaters and throwing people out windows and all that kind of stuff. He was very aggressive and very much a rebel rousing reformist.

Jeff Dwoskin 19:52

Sounds like a pretty literation what sounds like a bit of a thug.

Roy Schwartz 19:56

Yeah, he was a thug in the good guy side, right. He was sort of fed up. He was Bullying the bullies. He was intolerant towards the intolerant he really mellowed out, beginning and well, first of all, he became this all American icon in the 40s. From somebody who fought against the abuses of the American way of life, somebody who champion the American way of life like Nazis and all kind of stuff, he was still pretty aggressive though he, he sunk submarines and swatted planes out of the sky and definitely had a death toll. It's not until the 50s where he becomes this kind of patriarchal conservative Mr. Rogers style square, which he really only was during the 50s but that kind of stuck as an image, right then you know, the 60s and this is a very, very brief going over you but in the 60s, he becomes this hallucinogenic, constantly identity warping character is really out there crazy storylines that appeal either to the very young or the very high, really weird. He transformed into gorillas and became fat and became a baby and become a midget and became a woman and gone and sat in a lion's head and shot rainbows out of his fingertips and produce miniature versions of such weird stuff. And it became things became a bit more bitter and realistic in the 70s, as most comics of that era were. And then of course, comes the 1986 John Byrne reboot, if you guys read comics, you know, this is about which really invigorated him, he had this kind of Reagan's America and elliptic, you know, you remember the it's morning in America slogan, there was this kind of neoconservative rah rah spirit to for better or worse, then come down Jergens, then comes the Death of Superman in all kinds of stuff, etc, etc, etc. So the Superman you're talking about in 1978 is much more gentle, and much more relaxed and warm than the prickly, aggressive Superman of signatures to a great

Jeff Dwoskin 21:49

overview. Thank you so much in the book you talk about and I thought it's fascinating if you could cover it a little bit, at least just the the parallels to Superman story. And the Bible,

Roy Schwartz 21:59

there are many, there is nothing new under the sun, as they say. So the first parallels are between Superman and Moses. And I'm not the first one to note them. It's been commented on before me, and I just want to be clear, but that some people, well, people have written about it. Yes, but just because somebody discovered an archeological dig doesn't mean there isn't room to keep on digging and finding more stuff. Right? Correct. That's sort of the I'm always surprised. Well, somebody has written a biography of George Washington while you're writing a new one, because there's more stuff to talk about. So here we are. The origin story are where the parallels are the most obvious to save baby colors life from the destruction of his people he's placed in a small vessel, he sent a drift and unknown fate he is found amidst thick vegetation by people like his own is renamed by his adoptive mother, and he grows up to be this great Savior. That is the origin story of Moses, right one to one, it's impossible not to, to see it once you think about it. But that's pretty much where people have where this examination ends. And the thing is that the parallel is running much, much deeper. And again, you read the book, you know, there's all these kind of thematic concepts, but just give you one easy example. Look at a Superman movie and look at what happens when he turns 18. He hears the crystal right the sense of crystal calling him he goes on this walk about across the North Pole, he creates a fortress of solitude, whereupon he encounters the hologram of Jarell his father, his kind of bright apparition manifesting out of the eyes telling him I am jurrell, your Kryptonian here's your heritage, your culture, go back into the world and be this great Savior. And that is Moses crossing the desert of median coming up across the burning bush, seeing the operation of God who tells the mind of God of your father, they want them would explore even talk to him in the voice of his father who tells him where he's from, and send them back into the world as a savior. So these pillows continuing there's many more seagull. So in 1979, following the success of the movie, Jerry Siegel wrote a memoir, and probably lost and that stayed lost until 2011 When Larry Ty discovered it researching his Superman biography, the high flying history of America's greatest hero I think that's a name and for some reason nobody since tie into me actually read this thing. So it's in the Columbia University Libraries. I slept up there scanning read it and Seagull details in influences and he talks about how Samson the biblical hero was a strong influence on the creation of Superman Samson is super strong. If you remember the story, so super, super fast. He runs and catches 300 Foxes, he leaps in a single bound distance of about four miles in one story that's a Talmudic story. And Samson was a judge he fought in the name of truth and justice Siegel was also he writes, he was also inspired by the Golem of Prague, particularly a 1920 movie version, which was a huge success back then a German movie Written and directed by a Henrik Alene, a famous director. He was inspired in creating this indefatigable, indestructible protector of the innocent. And that origin story, by the way, was used wholesale for bizarro in 1958 It's one two When the exact same origin story, so there's definitely these kind of cultural influences from the get go. Can you explain what a Golem is? So a Golem is a creature of Jewish folklore. You will find them in Legend you'll find them in the Talmud you'll find them in Kabbalah The idea is that mud and dirt can be formed into a human shape and then breathe life into sort of like a basically Frankenstein except mystical instead of scientific interesting to note that the Frankenstein legend most of us are familiar with trace back to the 1931 movie Boris Karloff that's more an adaptation of the Golem legend then Mary Shelley's actual novel, including even a carried the character of the little blind girl who's not afraid of Frankenstein that in of itself is stolen from the girl in the movie making 20 which also shows up in the bizarro originated 58 So it all goes back to the Golem Legend of this kind of creature of dirt that is given life and looks human by Jewish mysticism. And he shows up in all kinds of different versions of the story. I would argue that Wonder Woman even though she's not a Jewish creation, you know her or her original origin before she was a result of a tryst between Zeus and pull it up. She was needed out of sand on the beach and breathed life into by the gods. That's a golem story, basically. And in the legend of the Golem of Prague, there's the Rabbi of Prague who to defend the Jews of the ghetto of Prague from pogroms he creates this creature to defend them, but the creature is well meaning as he is gets out of control starts being destructive, it has to be destroyed, which again brings us back to bizarro. So Superman was sort of a Golem in you know, meta Tex really given how much heartache he gave his creators, he sort of a Golem in our world as well.

Jeff Dwoskin 26:43

It's fascinating. You're right this second, I'd never heard the parallel between Superman and the Moses story. But once I read the book, and and you were talking about it, it's just so there. It's so interesting. However, there is also parallels though with Jesus, right. I mean, there has been reinterpretations where he's seen as more of a Christ figure as well.

Roy Schwartz 27:05

And he is that absolutely. You know, if your messianic figure of Judaism, it's a very short, single bound to leap into a messianic figure of Christianity. And it's equally true. It's equally legitimate. There's room enough for everybody this again, it's not an argument for donation for ownership, very important for me to kind of point that out. But the pearls to Christ weren't there in the comics. Originally, in the prime texts, they were added decades after Superman created after Superman's creation, and they begin with the 1970 movie, and many become more and more obvious in Smallville 2001 Superman Returns 2006 And particularly Henry Cavill. Movies util Man of Steel 2013, Batman v Superman 2016. And just like 2017, there's nothing particularly crystal logical meaning Christ like in the comics, until the death and return in 1992. I just had a conversation about that with Dan Jergens. At Motor City Comic Con, we can circle back to that, again, it's as legitimate but beyond the general concept of somebody who came from the heavens and he's a Savior. You know, he didn't he wasn't sent as a savior that begin to the movie, he was sent as a refugee, right, he was sent as a poor baby who needed to be taken in and looked after and raised, which is in the context of the 30s and 40s, a very potent metaphor. He didn't come here to sacrifice himself. He came here to dedicate himself, which is a very big difference in our concept of heroism, the dedication of life versus the sacrifice of self. He's also very much a Christ figure and that's enriching of the mythology, but that's sort of stand apart is a later addition to the mythology.

Jeff Dwoskin 28:39

Right. You mentioned Smallville, I was a big fan of Smallville, actually, you mentioned Motor City Comic Con, I met Tom Welling there, I got his autograph. And Michael Rosenbaum was also there, LAX, he's Jewish. I will leave Michael Rosenbaum.

Roy Schwartz 28:52

I was supposed to meet both Rosenbaum left a bit early. And it didn't get to I got to meet welling because the organizers kind of put us in touch. They were hoping there'd be some fun stuff. You know, he was super nice. No pun intended. It's funny. I brought him I had asked his agent if he wanted a copy of the book. And they just said sure, but I don't think the agent talked to him about it. So when I brought him a copy of my book, he just grabbed it and signed it. So and I have a copy of my book signed by him. I don't know what to do with it. I can't sell it at cyber.

Jeff Dwoskin 29:17

That's awesome. All right. Well, he was raised in such the mode, that's when they're those comic cons. That's what they're like people hand up stuff. They sign it and then move Absolutely.

Roy Schwartz 29:27

But he was he was he was very nice. So the coolest

Jeff Dwoskin 29:31

thing I thought of seeing him is him and Michael Rosenbaum truly have a really nice friendship. They mess with each other a lot. It was really funny. I didn't get to meet Michael Rosenbaum, though I wanted to but he was we never synced up. So speaking of lax, so if in the Moses story is Lex Luthor Ramsey's, is he a pharaoh or is it is the is not connected that way?

Roy Schwartz 29:53

I mean, I make the joke in my book. They're both famously bold. Right there, what do you didn't know the you know, it's Eliot Magan who was the main creative force on Superman during the 70s until crisis really approached both Superman and Luthor as Jewish. He said in an interview, the kids are Methodist and Clark is Methodist. But Superman is Jewish and it's so self evident. It might as well be can't we just sort of, you know, great. And he also thought of Lex Luthor is Jewish. And it's interesting from that perspective, you know, if let's be Freud for a second, yeah, a superhero is this sort of veneration of the father figure, right? I mean, all godly creatures, including God Himself in religion, according to Freud is really a surrogate of the father figure. And so a villain is sort of representative of the phobia of the father figures ability to control and for the autonomy of the individual, again, playing playing psychoanalysis here for a second. From that perspective. Freud is sort of a surrogate Oedipal complex for Nazari. Luthor is sort of a surrogate Oedipal complex, and from the Jewish perspective, he is, you know, what's more anathema to Jewish culture than intellect, in knowledge in scientific progress in the service of evil? Right? Right. If you think about it, Luther is the closest Earth has to drill, right? Jor el is a form of scientists and krypton. He's the foremost creator, he uses his knowledge to save life. He could have saved off cryptography listened to him, but he managed to save his son. Luther is the earth equivalent. He's the former scientist on Earth, but he uses his for evil to take life to destroy in a selfish pursuits. And it's a tragedy, because Luther is sort of what Superman hopes to aspire humanity to be. And Luther was so blindsided by his hatred of Superman that he missed the most obvious that Superman would be his most natural ally, a man from an advanced civilization brings with him advanced knowledge and can help advance the human race. And I don't think that's punched up enough in their, their antagonism in the comics, mostly, that they the big tragedy is that he really should be best friends and allies and just can't.

Jeff Dwoskin 31:57

I think that's true in life a lot of times your best friends but can easily be your worst enemy. So very interesting. So talk to me about or talk to us all about Hitler and the Nazis. They knew that Superman was Jewish, they didn't like it.

Roy Schwartz 32:14

Yeah, I have to tell you as a both a Jew in the center of Holocaust survivors on both sides and a buff of history, I can very quickly tell you that the Nazis did not like Jews.

Jeff Dwoskin 32:27

You heard it here first, folks. Breaking news are gone viral. Alright,

Roy Schwartz 32:33

so Superman's Jerry and Jerry Siegel. Josephus is Jewish. Jewishness was noted in the press pretty early on, but it was never really a big deal. Comic books as successful as they were were sort of under the cultural radar. And the fact that Superman was basically a propaganda figure another way in which he was a golem advocating for his peoples, kind of reflecting the upper occupations in advocating for their their interests is that he promoted he was a New Deal liberal right he was he promoted interventionism and rearmament and New Deal social economic policies and all this kind of stuff. And again, this was noted in the press but it was never never reached critical mass was never made a big deal. And then comes February 27 1940, and signatures so at this point, making millions by today's standards, you would think these two Jews during the Depression high school educated their characters doing very well even though they sold away they're still making a lot of money. Why would they rock the boat, but they were, you know, they had an impetus they created a character with a purpose. There was a magazine called Look Magazine, which was a competitor of Life magazine was read by millions, even more people in the comics, and they wrote this two page story called how Superman would win the war. And in its Superman, declares war and Hitler and Stalin stopped Stalin Hitler time we're still allies following the river drop Molotov agreement that Hitler would break about. Two months later, Superman breaks through the Zigfried line. That's the impregnable fortification line between France and Germany. He twists not to cannons into pretzels. He swats the Luftwaffe, the Air Force out of the sky like flies, he grabs Hitler and Stalin by the scruff of their necks that kittens Oh, like, you know, like we were children flies them over to the League of Nations that's a precursor to the UN, or they stand trial for war crimes. And you know, it's very cathartic. It's very fun, but who cares, right? It's just a kid's character in this little story, who cares? Turns out that the Nazis cared. And in April, April 12 1940, in de Srivatsa, called the black core, which was the official newspaper of the SS, they published a whole page tirade against Jerry Siegel. They ignore Joe Schuester for some reason about about how he's brainwashing American children with and you can invent this stuff. It's too good to be true, false Jewish values of protecting the innocent, showing compassion to the weak helping the needy or that kind of stuff. Because think about they were Nazis. It was all about this kind of warped, Uber mensch. Roadmaster raised live in xylem, all this kind of nonsense. So the idea of helping the week was anathema. And you can invent this nonsense, right? It's great.

Jeff Dwoskin 34:57

It's awesome. And Schuster seems to always get the short Under the deal, and Teller,

Roy Schwartz 35:01

he's always the mum, you know, you know it was reported on and by the way several accounts attributed this article directly to Joseph Goebbels, who may or may not have also had a conniption about it in the middle of an extract meeting. But either way this was reported on pretty widely in the American press how these two Jewish kids kind of stuck your finger in Hitler's eyes gonna ruffle the feathers of the vaunted master race. And here's interesting thing, so everything I just said has been written about before me but in Superman 25 They trolled the Nazis back and there's a story where basically, there's a character called geezer, who is this kind of these levels of mixed reality he's a spoof of Superman, as he's described by the Nazis in the article following the Look magazine story, you follow that? And it basically did this surrogate character of Superman who's a surrogate of his creators to begin with has turned Hitler into the laughingstock of the world and nobody takes Hitler seriously. So Hitler at a loss of what to do since agents Buddha agents to assassinate the creator of Superman in the comic in Superman saves him by dressing up as the character layer of middle textuality appointment of such as great ad saves the day of course, so the last laugh blogs to Siegel and Shuster.

Jeff Dwoskin 36:13

Great. That needs to be talked about more agree is really cool. So Seagull and Schuster did make money during the run of Superman as they were working still with DC.

Roy Schwartz 36:26

Yes. And they it seems that Schuster spent more than his family well segoe spent more on himself, but either way, neither saved up or invested wisely. So by the time they got fired from DC, they both pretty much slid into poverty pretty quickly. Which is not to absolve dc of malfeasance. But

Jeff Dwoskin 36:45

yeah, right. They should have been able to handle that money better. They should

Roy Schwartz 36:49

be by today's standards. Yeah, they were millionaires by today's standards, and then they just spent it all basically.

Jeff Dwoskin 36:56

Okay. Wow, they were living high on sticking to Hitler. So they probably didn't think they didn't think it would run and probably didn't think it would end.

Roy Schwartz 37:05

Right. Right. Right. Right. But you know, just for example Seigo and his first wife Bella, that's before he married Joanne who was the model for those lame neither of them drank at all but they had a fully quit bar in their basement in their home that Did you know they were eating out and dressing nice and spending in it. You know, find a young people it's a depression you're 22 years old and obviously you have 6 million bucks in the bank account I get it but unfortunately they did not prepare wisely for the day after so

Jeff Dwoskin 37:29

but 6 million back then

Roy Schwartz 37:31

I just throw a number but yeah, roughly No, no. 6 million today standards by today. So right, right, right. Yeah. Okay. They were well off. And again, none of this is to say what are they complaining about? Or DC was fine. Nothing any of that. But they could have done a lot better than they did? Yeah,

Jeff Dwoskin 37:45

sure. So do we consider Krypton then thank you setting your thing space Jews but then I thought Jews in space like Mel Brooks but yeah,

Roy Schwartz 37:54

we're Jews were Jews in space moving along singing a song protecting the Hebrew race. You know he's doing part two apparently is cool. Yeah. I really hope he finishes it and I hope he's able to get away with that humor because I don't know what we'll see. Let's say he he barely got away with the back of that. I don't know what's gonna but um, Krypton the space shuttle, right? I mean, they're the if you look at the world of Krypton miniseries, the first comic book mini series 79, Howard, Howard shaken, and Paul Kupferberg, D are Jews. They discuss how the supreme value of Kryptonian society is education and preservation of knowledge and how they pursue both the preservation of past culture as well as progress. Well, if that's not a Jewish cliche, I don't know what it is. They also mentioned that the number of Kryptonians just so happens to number 6 million which is a really evocative number back then, I and there's more, there's all kinds of, you know, if you if you go to the alienness magazine, stories from the 70s, then in Krypton, ancient past, one of Superman's ancestors, Jeff l warns Kryptonians against the flood that comes and that's evocative, but later on, they're enslaved by the Phoronix and Tucker net to build his ziggurat empire in the game freedom with a plague of hives. You know, there's a lot of it in there. So, and as Megan said, Yeah, Kryptonians are basically space Jews. So he openly approach them as such.

Jeff Dwoskin 39:17

So should we assume if Superman was circumcised said he would have been circumcised on Krypton?

Roy Schwartz 39:23

I mean, I don't know if he circumcised right now.

Jeff Dwoskin 39:25

I'm just kidding. I just cut them here.

Roy Schwartz 39:29

Like you'd have to ask Louis if he is or isn't, but I have to note that because you would not believe how many people don't get that the title of my book is just playful and cheeky. And really think I wrote an entire book about Superman circumcision. If you really think it's 300 pages, 100 of them are images you really think all this about his SMECO that literally this is what the book is about. And a lot of people do and I don't get it. So no, the of course I'm Krypton. He wasn't super so good. circumcised as long as they shipped them off. At least eight days old, you could have been circumcised. But I get asked this so many times that I've actually come up with an answer.

Jeff Dwoskin 40:07

All right, what's the answer? Hey, I'll ask it. Superman circumcised?

Roy Schwartz 40:10

Well, I'm glad you asked. I'll tell you. I'm Krypton. If you're a member, his father's name is Jarell. He was born kolel. So he was circumcised by Moyale.

Jeff Dwoskin 40:20

Okay, we're gonna say that the podcast suddenly cut off now.

Roy Schwartz 40:27

I know. It's so bad. I love it.

Jeff Dwoskin 40:29

He must be ahead at parties. I will tell that joke though.

Roy Schwartz 40:35

Yeah, the old people crowd loves it.

Jeff Dwoskin 40:39

Oh, I thought of an idea for your book. The one the one that you have accidentally autographed by Tom Welling. Yes. So you Christopher Reeve, obviously, sadly left but you could get other all the other living Superman to sign it. Brandon Routh, Henry Cavill Dean Cain, the guy. I don't know the name of the guy on the CW right now. But get all the Superman get all the Superman to sign it. And then you could sell it for charity. How cool would that be?

Roy Schwartz 41:03

That would be cool. That's not a bad idea.

Jeff Dwoskin 41:06

Just an idea. I give away free ideas. Yeah, that actually I would like to charge you $130 for that. Oh,

Roy Schwartz 41:14

one free signature.

Jeff Dwoskin 41:16

Man. Well, this is super cool. This was really enlightening. Very informative. You are brilliant. And I know we could probably talk all day about this. But believe me, folks, as much as we did talk about it. Roy's book goes so much deeper into all these stories and additional layers of context is like 300 pages. It's unbelievable. absolutely unbelievable. Detailed and so interesting. So interesting. You're welcome. Where can people find your book?

Roy Schwartz 41:48

So is Superman circumcised. The Complete Jewish history of the world's greatest hero is available everywhere books are sold. Easiest is Amazon, you can order from Barnes and Noble target. I've now sold in England as well in whatever the big Barnes and Noble equivalent is. It's Waterstones. That's it, Google Play. everywhere, everywhere books are sold. You can find it awesome digital and print.

Jeff Dwoskin 42:11

You can also head over to Roy schwartz.com. And there's links to all the places there that you could find the book as well. It's a very colorful book. So thank you. Well, Roy, thank you so much for hanging with me. I really appreciate it. Oh, thanks for having me. It was fun. And thanks for sharing your knowledge with us. It's very super of you. Oh, I got everyone right now is googling oil. So who is why? What is this thing? Thank you so much.

Roy Schwartz 42:38

Somebody works with it.

Jeff Dwoskin 42:41

Oh, man, that's nice. All right. We're gonna end it there. Thank you, Roy.

Jeff Dwoskin 42:46

Alright, everyone, that was Roy Schwartz. That's a lot of yiddiish for some of you, huh? If you need to know a word just tweet me at Jeff Dwoskin show I'll hook you up. I'll be your podcast host to Yiddish dictionary not a problem at all. Get the book he won't. We only scratched the surface. If you thought this conversation was fascinating. I highly recommend you get the book as hundreds and hundreds of hundreds of pages. It's so in depth. And it's a good read. It's a really good read. I value it all enjoy learning that the Superman story was based on Moses with Passover right around the corner. Figured you hear this interview? And then you'd go tell everyone a or Seders all about Superman, or if you're not Jewish, just dinner, at your dinner. Whatever faith you are, share what we learned today, and maybe you'll win a trivia contest coming up in the near future. Anyway, thanks, Roy. That was so fascinating.

Jeff Dwoskin 43:46

All right. Well with the interview over that calling me one thing that's right, it means it's time for another trending hashtag when the family of hashtags that hashtag or round up, follow us on Twitter at hashtag Roundup, download the free hashtag roundup app at the Google Play Store or iTunes App Store is free always free never cost a penny download it get notified every time a game goes live. tweet along with us. And one day one of your tweets may show up on a future episode of alive from Detroit. The Jeff Dwoskin show fame and fortune awaits you. Today's hashtag is brought to us by hashtag you're it of course inspired by the topic of today's episode. The hashtag is #DownsideOfBeingSuperman. Hashtag you're it a weekly Game On hashtag ground up asked all of Twitter. Oh my goodness. So you're Superman. But even Superman has got to be a downside. So what would be the #DownsideOfBeingSuperman and Twitter did not fail us. Here are some #DownsideOfBeingSuperman tweets. St. Patrick's Day kind of freaks you out. That's what happens when the one thing that really messes you up is green green everywhere. Our green everywhere day is not going to be a good day. That is an example of a #DownsideOfBeingSuperman. It's a more II one donut and everybody sees it in the spandex. It's the shaping of the tights. never being able to cash and your frequent flyer miles. Your Nic Cage movie never happened. Oh, you don't have villains as cool as Batman's. These are some #DownsideOfBeingSuperman tweets. Here's some more having to replace a wall every time you sneeze that can get expensive. You wear underwear on the outside. Let me say do you wear your underwear on the outside? I had to rephrase that. Like my friend Ben used to say you save one person in parallel once and suddenly everyone expects you to save them. I know right? Dorothy can't when DC gave you a mullet in the 90s That sounds like something we should leave between Superman DC and the 90s everyone sees your underwear and asks you if you're from France because they can see your underpants. I added the last part. Wonder Woman steals the show why she's got those fancy little things, bracelet things. And the final #DownsideOfBeingSuperman. Cape sweat out of style. Oh no. For Superman. Well, good thing for Superman. There's a lot of upsides to being Superman as well. So let's focus on those as we wind up the episode. All those tweets, they'll be retweeted at Jeff Dwoskin show on Twitter, retweet him, show him some love. Have you thought of a downside of being Superman? Tweet your own. Tag me on Twitter and I'll say some Twitter love.

Jeff Dwoskin 47:00

Well, that's it. We're at the end of the podcast episode 119 has come to a close I want to thank once again my special guest, author Roy Schwartz. Everyone check out his book is Superman circumcised winner of the 2021 International diagramme prize for artists book title of the year. That's right award winning his Superman circumcise. Alright, thank you, Roy, for joining me. And thank all of you for joining me as well. Can't think it means the world to me. You come back week after week, and I'll see you next time.

Announcer 47:36

Thanks so much for listening to this episode of the Jeff Dwoskin show with your host Jeff Dwoskin. Now go repeat everything you've heard and sound like a genius. Catch us online at the Jeff Dwoskin show.com or follow us on Twitter at Jeff Dwoskin show and we'll see you next time

Transcribed by https://otter.ai